Company/chapter ancients and devastators

[mertbl]

Ive made a list with 10 man dev squads and an ancient. Say you take a wound. Are you killing the bolter guy or the heavy weapon?

[Panzer]

I just wouldn't play a 10 man devastator squad in the first place to be honest. ^^

[Dosjetka]

If you have an Apothecary nearby, I'd be tempted to say heavy weapons specialist. If not, definitely boltgun-wielders until you have none left.

 

sfPanzer: How about actually answering the question? :)

[robofish7591]

Bolter guys until there aren't any more.  The hole point of bringing devastators is for the heavy weapons, you don't want to loose them too early, especially if it is only for a 50/50 chance at shooting back.

[Dracos]

^^ What he said, but if you're using an Ancient without the Banner, you need to go see the Chaplain ... and then the Apothecary. ;)

[crazyterran]

Yeah, the SotEA is the best relic in the book, and if you are bringing a banner boi might as well take The best relic as well.

 

As for me, I would have combat squaded those five Bolter marines to go run around the mid field getting objectives, or even split the lascannons into two squads to spread out the shooting the enemy could do. But probably Bolter guys would take it first unless there was something big and stompy about to charge my lines.

[MajorNese]

I just wouldn't play a 10 man devastator squad in the first place to be honest. ^^

I do. 3 of them. Works fine.

 

The banner seems a bit counter-productive on devs. Hellblasters I could understand, as every lost model can safely overcharge and will do something, but the whole point of devs is to shoot the heavy weapons as often as possible, removing the tacs first, and the HW as the last models of the unit.

 

The relic banner gives, on average and including a dead squad, +4/6 of a shot per model, one time. A captain, rerolling 1s, gives out +1/6 of a shot per round, being more effective if the squad lasts longer, and buffing the entire unit, not just models in 3". Bonus points for the captain when using the stratagem ammo (hellfire shell/flakk missile), those are expensive and can be shot twice on the first round with the cherub, including the signum on a rerollable 2+.

[Panzer]

sfPanzer: How about actually answering the question?

 

I kinda did. In the scenario he proposed I don't think there's a right answer. Both decisions bear some kind of risk. If I had to decide on one I'd go with sacrificing the Bolter Marine tho. The banner wouldn't matter at all in that case but the Bolter Marines you bought for the sole reason of protecting the heavy weapons would at least do their job and not be wasted.

[MajorNese]

One thing where the relic banner might be useful, is when you fully expect your devs to die quickly. Group the HW around the relic banner, enjoy your ablative bolter guys, and never lose models to morale until the HWs are finally destroyed. Astartes morale is okay, but when you lose 6+ models in one round (morale 7 when sarge is gone), you almost automatically fail morale. This would be more efficient than a captain if they die before their 4th shooting phase (+4/6 instead of 4x +1/6). Also, you never need to spend CP on morale or risk them running away, in which case a regular banner would not work.

[HighMarshalAmp]

I take the question to be which weapon we'd rather make the additional shooting attacks with.

 

And to answer it, let me ask this: would you fire a Bolter at a Rhino? Or a Lascannon at a Termagant horde?

I guess which one I'd take the wound on is as situational as the use you get out of the weapons.

[MajorNese]

With the limited range of the banner, and only counting models (not entire units), I guess there is no way that many non-HW will be in the bubble. Especially when clustering more than one unit, to get more out of the banner and its fearless bubble.

 

Which to remove is simple - maybe get one shooting phase out of a model but no more, or potentially shoot more often by staying alive. It's never wasted (unless in CC) - they don't flee, they are only removed by dying, which means the ability can trigger later. There are few situational exceptions to removing the cheap bolter dudes, which is when you'd prefer to sacrifice an expensive weapon for potentially doing damage earlier - Mortarion charging at devastators from 2" away will mean that the devs will want their lascannon to get one more shot out before they are all surely killed, but when someone removes a dude from across the board, there's not much reason to take the expensive ones.

[robofish7591]

If you want to take devs with a banner, I would probably go with plasma cannons and just over charge every time they fire.  That way if they overheat they get a chance of firing off some more shots, then have an apothecary hanging out with them to bring the plasma cannon back to do it again.  It definitely isn't efficient or competitive, but it would probably be kind of fun if you are lucky with your 4+ rolls.

[mertbl]

Yeah, I didn't read it close enough. Banner range to model and not unit kinds ruins it for me. Next tactic!

[d36williams]

I stick a Heavy Bolter in every Dev squad, just so I can BS 2 Hellfire Shell. I have a list (and by the way I'm not a great player) that takes advantage of removing Heavy Bolters, getting the "shoot again" off, use Hellfire Shell stratagem so I can Mortal Wound as the dude dies. The plan is, it's more about the Mortal Wound generation than any one model. 

 

Hellfire Shells in my shooting phase + Armonium Cherub (per newest FAQ), Hellfire Shells as I die. 

 

Means something VS elite armies but not a great strategy VS hordes, aaaaand except Custodes, Hordes are the army of the 8th edition

[d36williams]

Yeah, the SotEA is the best relic in the book, and if you are bringing a banner boi might as well take The best relic as well.

 

As for me, I would have combat squaded those five Bolter marines to go run around the mid field getting objectives, or even split the lascannons into two squads to spread out the shooting the enemy could do. But probably Bolter guys would take it first unless there was something big and stompy about to charge my lines.

 

Honestly I think the Fist of Vengeance is the best Relic in the book -- Damage 3 with no penalty to hit is incredibly efficient on a Captain

[Captain Idaho]

I stick a Heavy Bolter in every Dev squad, just so I can BS 2 Hellfire Shell. I have a list (and by the way I'm not a great player) that takes advantage of removing Heavy Bolters, getting the "shoot again" off, use Hellfire Shell stratagem so I can Mortal Wound as the dude dies. The plan is, it's more about the Mortal Wound generation than any one model. 

 

Hellfire Shells in my shooting phase + Armonium Cherub (per newest FAQ), Hellfire Shells as I die. 

 

Means something VS elite armies but not a great strategy VS hordes, aaaaand except Custodes, Hordes are the army of the 8th edition

I'll have to check the wording of the Strategum (it might say "shooting phase") but if it's water tight then this is a great idea!

[d36williams]

Hellfire Shells stratagem reads "Use this Stratagem just before an ADEPTUS ASTARTES INFANTRY model attacks with a heavy bolter."  So, any phase

[Captain Idaho]

Squee!

 

D3 Mortal Wounds for killing our models is amazing. Nice find.