The Problem of -1 to Hit

[Stofficus]

Hello all,

 

I was a little late to get into 8th - work kept me away for some time, but the advantage of this is I've come into the edition after its had no small amount of shakeups, and most of the armies have their own up to date codexes - something I haven't experience since I started playing back late during 4th. 

 

While I have noted a lot of positives - armour as a modifier is something I've been clamouring for since I started, for example, there is one mechanic that strikes me as more than just "not to my liking," but fundamentally bad to the game - and GW's handling of it thus far has been decidedly poor. 

 

And that is, as the title implies, the subfaction -1 to hit ability army wide outside of 12''. 

 

Don't get me wrong, I was ecstatic for the return of subfactions for everyone, rather than just SM and CSM - the combination of trait, relic, warlord trait and strategems are an easy way to add diversity, without requiring the complexity, as much as I loved it, of 3.5 and 4th ed faction customization - and should be, in theory, much easier to keep balanced. 

 

However, the ball has been dropped profundly on that front. As it stands, most subfaction bonuses are of a minor or situational nature - Emperor's Children "always strike first in CC" comes up infrequently to say the least, or the Mephrit bonus AP requires some aggressive play by a traditionally standoffish force. The bonuses are, of course, not completely equal in power, but relatively few could be considered trash. However, they are all utterly pathetic in comparison to a blanket modifier to hit, which has no risk, requires no particular list or tactical planning to benefit from, and ranges from useful to absolutely crippling against certain forces - all without any counter. 

 

As it stands, the following armies have a -1 to hit bonus: 

 

Spaces Marines

Chaos Space Marines

AdMech

Eldar

 

In fact, most of these codexes share subfaction bonuses, and all represent some of the first codexes released which have subfactions to represent. 

 

Every other bonus they possess, is, frankly, pathetic in comparison, and I rarely see taken unless required for certain characters (Guilliman, Cawl, etc). Against a Guard, Tau or even Ork army, such an ability completely neuters their ability to fight, and while SM of both varieties generally need to engage from close range, allowing their opponent more opportunities to get within 12'' and do full damage, with a force like AdMech, or especially, Eldar, the situation is quite different. 

 

Admech has the range, volume of fire and BS to present a formidable gunline that you simply can't hit reliably - but if you can via volume of fire, deep strike or sufficient melee units, they are fragile enough that an opponent stands at least a fighting chance. Eldar, however, with extreme mobility, high and buffable durability and high firepower simply get to abuse any other force which can not reliably and simultaneously get within 12'' and have enough firepower to defeat units which can, depending, have an extra un-removable -1 to hit, be T6 or higher, or are simply cheap enough that any unit which can close will be by its nature much more valuable than what it's fighting. 

 

While I don't want to single Eldar out here unduly - while I do believe they benefit the most from this mechanic (I at least see the occassional Imperial Fist, World Eaters or Martian Mechanicum force - I literally have not seen a single non-Alaitoc Eldar force this edition), the other factions can build devastating gunlines around this system, with no reliable counter built into the game, or at least not universally available counters. 

 

Now, GW seems to have realized this is a lazy mechanic which isn't good for the game - no recent 'dex has had an army wide -1 available to them, even though thematically Necrons and Dark Eldar are certainly as deserving of a "you can't see us" mechanic as Raven Guard or Alaitoc, if not moreso. Custodes and Tyranids have units which give a bubble of it - but then that represents a target which can be eliminated, and otherwise is now being represented by units gaining the benefits of cover in the open - which can be easily countered with better AP weapons or ignores cover weapons. 

 

So, the mechanic is bad, and it unfairly punishes some armies more than others (it's an annoyance to SM, an inconvenience to Custodes, but crippling to Guard or Tau), but GW realizes they "dun goofed," so what's the problem - why am I rambling on about this? 

 

Because they haven't, and will not go back and fix the mistake. While it is likely Chaos will get parceled off into some more god-specific sub 'dexes eventually, and SM might get a re-release at some point with another wave of Primaris, Eldar and AdMech will likely be with us for quite some time, and GW has had the opportunity to change their subfaction rules in Chapter Approved and the "Big FAQ," but elected not to, for neither the -1 armies, or the handful of undesirable traits, like Emperor's Children for instance. 

 

What does that mean to me? Another edition cycle of sighing every time I see Eldar on the table, and Mechanicum taking the title of "most boring gunline armies" from the Guard, and at least for the time being, some very un-creative SM and CSM lists. 

 

TL:DR; 

 

lazy mechanics with no counter are bad, GW seems to get this, but doesn't want to go back and fix the mistake, and insteads wants to just power forwards leading to 7th style divide between the haves and the have not 'dexes. 

 

 

[Iron Father Ferrum]

When it comes to Raven Guard and Alpha Legion, you're missing a balancing factor: both benefit from a trait that wants their units to be far from the enemy but both also have a stratagem that wants them to deploy units close to the enemy. So up to half any such army might never benefit from the trait, and that's not even considering that the trait doesn't apply to any vehicles other than Dreadnoughts (though Alaitoc does, which is infuriating).

[Claws and Effect]

When it comes to Raven Guard and Alpha Legion, you're missing a balancing factor: both benefit from a trait that wants their units to be far from the enemy but both also have a stratagem that wants them to deploy units close to the enemy. So up to half any such army might never benefit from the trait, and that's not even considering that the trait doesn't apply to any vehicles other than Dreadnoughts (though Alaitoc does, which is infuriating).

This is an excellent point.

 

I've been getting tabled by Tyranids through sheer weight of dice by turn 3. If my army didn't have that -1 to hit it would be happening by the end of turn 2. Or if not outright tabled, it would leave me with so little of my army remaining there is little point to continuing the battle.

 

A single-1 to hit isn't a huge problem. Stacking multiples of it is.

 

When your Guard and Tyranids are throwing 30 or 40 dice at a 5 man squad, a -1 to hit isn't as crippling as you make it out to be.

[Lexington]

Like C&E said, it’s the stacking of modifiers that really makes these sorts of things a problem, and can even be a problem without of sub-Faction traits.

 

In another thread on the topic, someone suggested limiting negative modifiers applied by enemy models/units to one - pick the largest single modifier, and apply that one only. It still sounds pretty good to me.

[Bryan Blaire]

I'll have to disagree - while the Alaitoc faction bonus applies to too much, the idea that Guard, Tau, or Orks are "neutered" by a -1 to hit outside 12" is really funny to me. Those are specifically those armies that have the weight of dice behind them that a -1 to hit is designed to balance. Orks are especially humorous, because they are an army that isn't known for their shooting anyway, and their basic units only have a 12-18" shooting range anyway, depending on which basic equipment you are talking about (i.e. the basic Troop units aren't affected at all, or are only affected for about 6"). They don't really have ranged units beyond this unless you are talking about Elites, Heavy Support, etc. - i.e. Special units that already have their own bonuses. Tau aren't considered as OP as they used to be, but Guard are still typically an army that people complain about in comparison to SM and CSM. I've only really heard complaints about the -1 in reference to Eldar, so I disagree that it is as big an issue as the OP made it out to be.

 

Stacking modifiers seems to be one of the bigger issues. I'd be in favor of picking only the largest modifier in most situations (there would probably need to be an evaluation of the situations and which bonuses), but I'm not writing the rules for this game, and I have no delusions about my suggestions altering the path GW takes.

[Redtoof]

I'm of the opinion that the -1 to hit should either become the 'always in cover' trait that newer codexes are getting, or be more limited in terms of when it can be used, e.g. only if a unit did not move.

 

The -1 to hit is the most powerful trait by a fair way, but it's also one of the most specific in that it has basically no effect against armies that rely on melee or psychic powers for their damage. It's a bit of a weird one because if the meta were different with Orks and grey knights everywhere it might be seen as quite a weak trait.

[MARK0SIAN]

I simply think a rule that says your hit roll can never be modified by more than 1 (plus or minus) is the way to go.

[Lexington]

I simply think a rule that says your hit roll can never be modified by more than 1 (plus or minus) is the way to go.

I think the issue with this (and why I liked the suggestion above) is that you could use this to negate self-inflicted modifiers from, for example, moving and shooting a heavy weapon.

[toaae]

I'll have to disagree - while the Alaitoc faction bonus applies to too much, the idea that Guard, Tau, or Orks are "neutered" by a -1 to hit outside 12" is really funny to me. Those are specifically those armies that have the weight of dice behind them that a -1 to hit is designed to balance. Orks are especially humorous, because they are an army that isn't known for their shooting anyway, and their basic units only have a 12-18" shooting range anyway, depending on which basic equipment you are talking about (i.e. the basic Troop units aren't affected at all, or are only affected for about 6"). They don't really have ranged units beyond this unless you are talking about Elites, Heavy Support, etc. - i.e. Special units that already have their own bonuses.

 

It's pretty universal that Ork players believe we need something to mitigate negative modifiers, as even just a single -1 in shooting cuts the number of hits in half, and another -1 makes shooting literally impossible. No amount of dice can overcome hitting on 7s. Our weapons are typically not very good, so weight of dice isn't often enough to make hitting on 6s a worthwhile venture. Orks can be a shooting army, with a number of units that support solely that (Lootas, Flashgitz, Big/Mek Gunz, Tankbustas). But as long as a blanket negative modifier to hit remains, Orks will be pushed into focusing on Close Combat exclusively.

 

I've been of the opinion Orks should get a rule ignoring negative modifiers in the shooting phase from outside sources (IE, they still are effected by moving and heavy weapons, or advancing and assault weapons). It's simply far too strong about an army that hits on 5s.

[Dracos]

When I see Alpha Legion or Raven Guard start to show up at the top tables I’ll take this concern more seriously. Especially considering Guard are easily a more competitive Codex and Tau being no worse than Marines which has suffered greatly due to power creep. At this rate Orks are going to be freaking scary again.

 

Guard have a ridiculous amount of available CP and better overall stratagems than Marines. I’m sorry but this concern over a lazy mechanic doesn’t really hold water at the gaming table.

[Panzer]

 

I simply think a rule that says your hit roll can never be modified by more than 1 (plus or minus) is the way to go.

I think the issue with this (and why I liked the suggestion above) is that you could use this to negate self-inflicted modifiers from, for example, moving and shooting a heavy weapon.

 

 

Not to mention there are units that are designed around stacking those modifiers like the Ghostkeel with his Stealth Drones for example.

[MARK0SIAN]

 

 

I simply think a rule that says your hit roll can never be modified by more than 1 (plus or minus) is the way to go.

I think the issue with this (and why I liked the suggestion above) is that you could use this to negate self-inflicted modifiers from, for example, moving and shooting a heavy weapon.

Fair enough, perhaps modify it to read, your hit rolls can never be modified by more than one with the exception of any movement penalty that may also apply. Words to that effect anyway

[MARK0SIAN]

 

 

 

 

I simply think a rule that says your hit roll can never be modified by more than 1 (plus or minus) is the way to go.

I think the issue with this (and why I liked the suggestion above) is that you could use this to negate self-inflicted modifiers from, for example, moving and shooting a heavy weapon.

Not to mention there are units that are designed around stacking those modifiers like the Ghostkeel with his Stealth Drones for example.

For me though that’s a design problem, I disagree with any unit being able to essentially make themselves un-hittable or we will be back to the invisibility rubbish from 7th edition.

[Panzer]

 

 

 

I simply think a rule that says your hit roll can never be modified by more than 1 (plus or minus) is the way to go.

I think the issue with this (and why I liked the suggestion above) is that you could use this to negate self-inflicted modifiers from, for example, moving and shooting a heavy weapon.

Not to mention there are units that are designed around stacking those modifiers like the Ghostkeel with his Stealth Drones for example.

For me though that’s a design problem, I disagree with any unit being able to essentially make themselves un-hittable or we will be back to the invisibility rubbish from 7th edition.

 

 

To be fair the Ghostkeel is the only one I know that is designed around stacking negative to-hit modificators and is only un-hittable against something like Orks and only if the Ork player refuses to shoot the Stealth Drones first.

[Bryan Blaire]

Orks haven't gotten their Codex yet, so the Ork "issue" with the -1 to Hit "tactic" may be a non-issue in a few months.

[toaae]

Orks haven't gotten their Codex yet, so the Ork "issue" with the -1 to Hit "tactic" may be a non-issue in a few months.

 

Right, we're hoping for something in it to deal with that.

[Stofficus]

Orks haven't gotten their Codex yet, so the Ork "issue" with the -1 to Hit "tactic" may be a non-issue in a few months.

 

That I doubt - there hasn't been a single unit or mechanic which provides a counter to the -1 to hit, whereas other faction bonuses have received equals/counters. 

 

More broadly, as I said in my OP, the trait isn't game-changing for Raven Guard or Alpha legion because of the nature of those armies is to always be at moderate close range - it's an advantage for a turn or two, or for their infantry firebase. 

 

For Eldar in particular, given their extreme mobility, stacking bonuses, high firepower and surprising durability, they becomes disgusting. Yes, Guard and Orks have buckets of dice, and potentially CP, but that doesn't count for much when the weapons you need to actually hurt the T6, 3+ wraithguard, 2+ in cover, who have a -1 to hit, or the Wave Serpent with -2 to hit, and so on are hitting on 5s at best, often 6s, or even 7s if they use their "lightning reflexes" strategem which adds another flat -1 to hit to any eldar infantry or unit with the "fly" keyword (which spoiler, is damned near everything). 

 

In truth, I'm more than a little annoyed that the army which was unplayably broken in 6th and 7th, while not as disgusting, again has stacking rules and bonuses so beyond anything else. 

 

The lazy -1 mechanic is still objectively bad design on the other three forces which have it, but when combined with such an all around powerful army, it becomes obscene against certain armies - whereas others, such as a Custodes list with jetbikes, simply doesn't care. It's awfully rock-paper-scissors, at the end of the day. 

[Bryan Blaire]

It's a lazy mechanic, if you don't like it. It's perfectly fluffy if you do and think that it matches that. ~shrug~

 

As far as Orks getting something to counter it - I didn't mean a tactic, etc., I meant for all we know, GW is going to raise their shooting to Guard level because Orks are getting a "Prime-Ork" treatment. We really don't know what GW is going to do with Orks.]

 

But if the biggest complaint is against Eldar, then sure, the effect is too wide-spread. That can easily change with a FAQ soon, or all the points for Eldar might go up, it depends on how GW wants to balance it.

[Finkmilkana]

That I doubt - there hasn't been a single unit or mechanic which provides a counter to the -1 to hit, whereas other faction bonuses have received equals/counters.

 

Actually there is, it’s just only available to the one faction that has the most minus to hit themselves: dark reapers.

 

On the main topic, I completely agree: for raven guard and alpha legion it’s not that bad because they have less synergies with the modifier. It’s still bad for the game even in these cases though as it makes it very hard to properly balance marines against bad BS gun lines like guard. If some sub factions suffer 1/3 less damage only against certain enemies that is massive. Such a situation usually end with the sub factions without the -1 to hit to be too weak or those with the -1 to hit to be too strong.

[Emicus]

"Lazy game mechanics with no counter is bad"

->

Move within 12".

[Melete]

Orks haven't gotten their Codex yet, so the Ork "issue" with the -1 to Hit "tactic" may be a non-issue in a few months.

 

Tau players have a similar issue, not as severe certainly, and the Tau codex did precisely nothing to alleviate hit penalties. So I wouldn't get your hopes up too much.

[Stofficus]

"Lazy game mechanics with no counter is bad"

->

Move within 12".

 

Yes, I will immediately move a Leman Russ to within 12'', taking a -1 to hit for all its secondary weapons for moving, of the wave serpent full of 10 fire dragons. 

 

10/10, would tactics again. 

 

When the only counter is to move into extreme close range - which is something assault armies with multiple tools to enhance movement and protection, have been struggling to do outside of specific builds, namely mass deep strike, it isn't exactly a "counter." Hell, against marines, that's what they want/need - the enemy within rapid fire/charge range to maximize their capabilities, while Eldar don't care how far away you intend on being, as they'll just move into optimal engagement range for themselves and ignore all penalties between higher base movement, battle focus and so on. 

 

The only army that getting into that optimal range really will turn the scales on is AdMech as they're quite squishy for how much they cost, and once you get past that -1 to hit, it's really just Onagers and robots which will be able to take any notable amount of punishment, especially in assault. 

[Claws and Effect]

Okay.

 

Say all -1 to hit modifiers are removed, game wide.

 

What do those factions that have it as their inherent trait get to replace it?

[MARK0SIAN]

Well I wouldn’t advocate for a total removal but if they did a replacement to represent their stealth could be to apply the Space Marine scout infiltration rule to all their troops or their troops and select infantry units. Maybe also prevent overwatch on charges from 9 inches or more away or something similar.

 

Like I said though, I wouldn’t ask for them to be removed totally, just prevented from stacking

[Iron Father Ferrum]

 

 

"Lazy game mechanics with no counter is bad"

->

Move within 12".

Yes, I will immediately move a Leman Russ to within 12'', taking a -1 to hit for all its secondary weapons for moving, of the wave serpent full of 10 fire dragons.

 

10/10, would tactics again.

 

Alternatively, do it with something that makes sense, like a deep striking Scions melta squad or a trip-las Vendetta.