Hopper21 Posted May 1, 2018 Share Posted May 1, 2018 I played a practice tourny game last night sticking to the good old castle with lots of guns. It wasn't going to well so I changed things up that got me thinking. GMAN and gun line castle is generally countered accross the board now, especially against a good oppenant. So I essentially let GMAN out the block early and ran accross the board. Along with some other bits and bobs (intercessors etc). The result saved me from being tabled and bringing the game back. My oppenant switched fire and had deal with him. Once in the oppenants side he started to work through his units clearing stuff of the table. He openly said his experience playing GMAN he was surprised to see him being moved so aggressively up the board and made him rethink his plan. Have people played him like this in the past? Could he be an expensive distarction running up a board flank?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruor Vault Posted May 1, 2018 Share Posted May 1, 2018 Guilliman being aggressive is usually the best option these days. His rerolls can make even Devastators effective on the move, and people tend to be concerned about Guilliman making it into their lines. Forcing your opponent to react to YOU is generally a lot stronger of a position to be in, than reacting to THEM. You also gain a surprisingly large number of extra shots from all those double tapping Bolt Guns with rerolls! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted May 1, 2018 Share Posted May 1, 2018 I learned this some time ago. The Guilliman gunline is dead in competitive play. Terrain kills it, objectives kill it, a Beta Strike kills it. Also, it's utterly mind numbing to play. I was careful in the construction of my list; High toughness, mobility, absolutely no models that suffer from a BS penalty when moving. The army I run advances into central positions, navigating terrain - You only need one or two tuns of Aura firepower, and during those turns you should still be moving forward. After that the units fan out as needed, Guilliman assaulting key threats or models. My Army: Techmarine of various configuration (I like the conversion beamer and teeth of terra, or Servo Harness with Prmarch's wrath) 2/3 units of Scouts 2 x Hellblaster Squads 2 x Reiver Squads 2 x Repulsors, Max Las, all other best dakka options 1 x Sicaran Venator 1 x Guilliman In the initial turns there is nothing below t7 for my enemy to target as the Repulsors carrying 2 units each advance. The venator can be deployed safely behind LOS blocking and it can easily get into aura range or position due to it's fast movement. The Scouts block deepstrikers, but I might change them as I don't need to fear this in the first turn. Guilliman will always be in combat by turn 4, typically in the enemy's deployment zone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hopper21 Posted May 1, 2018 Author Share Posted May 1, 2018 I learned this some time ago. The Guilliman gunline is dead in competitive play. Terrain kills it, objectives kill it, a Beta Strike kills it. Also, it's utterly mind numbing to play. I was careful in the construction of my list; High toughness, mobility, absolutely no models that suffer from a BS penalty when moving. The army I run advances into central positions, navigating terrain - You only need one or two tuns of Aura firepower, and during those turns you should still be moving forward. After that the units fan out as needed, Guilliman assaulting key threats or models. My Army: Techmarine of various configuration (I like the conversion beamer and teeth of terra, or Servo Harness with Prmarch's wrath) 2/3 units of Scouts 2 x Hellblaster Squads 2 x Reiver Squads 2 x Repulsors, Max Las, all other best dakka options 1 x Sicaran Venator 1 x Guilliman In the initial turns there is nothing below t7 for my enemy to target as the Repulsors carrying 2 units each advance. The venator can be deployed safely behind LOS blocking and it can easily get into aura range or position due to it's fast movement. The Scouts block deepstrikers, but I might change them as I don't need to fear this in the first turn. Guilliman will always be in combat by turn 4, typically in the enemy's deployment zone. Love this buddy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted May 1, 2018 Share Posted May 1, 2018 I'm feeling Guilliman needs to get stuck in to earn those points. 400pts is a lot for a reroll merchant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamiel Posted May 2, 2018 Share Posted May 2, 2018 I'm having a similar developing idea for space marines as a whole, not just Guilliman. Whether you're looking at Guilliman or your humble tac-marine, you're paying premium points for melee capabilities as well. The Emperor's Sword, for example, is too good to pass up (especially in the hands of someone with the stats of Guilliman), and I have always been baffled by how people only used it defensively. Similary for tac-marines, a bunch of STR4 melee attacks (and bolt pistols) may not seem like much... but it works against gunline army troops if you can tie them up. I think the marine philosophy is that you're paying for a good shooting statline and a good melee statline. Against an army that has amazing shooting and poor melee, you may want to get into melee (even with your tac marines). Likewise, against an army with amazing melee and poor shooting, you may want to stay out of melee. But you're paying for both of shooting and melee capabilities, and coming up with creative ways to make use of your stats seems to be very important for us. Imperial Guard can just buy shooty units and rest comfortably that shooting at the enemy will usually be the best option for them. We don't have that luxury of knowing what to do with a squad with that level of certainty each game. We have to make decisions on the spot about shooting or melee. That tac squad you kitted up with special weapons? Sure, you want to make use of those special weapons, but what if there's an enemy leman-russ or guardsmen squad nearby that you can tie up in melee with your tac marines? It sounds really simple, but because our units are generally given decent stats for shooting and melee, we might have to figure out what the enemy lacks and put pressure on it. We're not an army that can go into every battle with a premade plan of "I'm going to sit here and shoot" and hope it goes well every game. We're not the "I'm going to sit here and shoot" army, we're not the "I'm going to charge you down" army. I think we're the "I'm going to shoot you with some of my guys, or melee you with some of my guys, depending on what it is you're weak at" army.As for Guilliman, what ties him into all of this is his similar design philosophy. He's got a great aura that can be applied to shooting or melee, and he's got a great melee weapon too. You have to decide what part of your army needs the Guilliman more: melee or shooting. And then back him up once you've made that decision because he still has that aura. He seems to reflect the SM codex in his design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted May 2, 2018 Share Posted May 2, 2018 Whilst out Codex needs work I must say I agree. I have killed Genestealers with Tactical Marines in close combat simply because I've shot them dead then charged (striking first). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnkyHamHam Posted May 3, 2018 Share Posted May 3, 2018 I've been having delusions of grandeur of running Guilliman in a full frontal charge surrounded by dreadnoughts. Guilliman, a Leviathan, and two Contemptors with support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted May 4, 2018 Share Posted May 4, 2018 That made my mouth water! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnkyHamHam Posted May 4, 2018 Share Posted May 4, 2018 Well thanks to my impulses and FW's dreadnought deal, I've just ordered a Leviathan, Deredeo, and Contemptor. Combined with my current collection of dreads, including my BaC Contemptor and 2 Ironclads... Guilliman will soon have his entourage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pr3Mu5 Posted May 24, 2018 Share Posted May 24, 2018 I'll just point out that this has been an effective tactic for quite some time. Everyone else i know who runs Guilliman goes for the old tried and tested gunline but you'll find that rushing him up the field surrounded by ceramite encased death can really catch people out. This is a post of mine from August last year... I have run him from 50 power to 75 power all the way up to 2500 points.Has anyone else build close combat armies around him?I don't even bother building a gun line with him, there's no point. Stick Calgar, Honour guard, Lieutenant (mine takes a hammer for the fun of even more D3 damage) and Chapter Ancient with Banner of the Emperor Ascendant in a Land Raider Crusader with jump pack Vanguard vets and then stick a couple terminator units in teleport. You will still have points left over for a fire Base to lend fire support for turn one. Land Raider drives forward and fires getting buffs from Guilliman as he goes 8"+D6+1 and then turn 2 everything gets out and Termies teleport in and use Guillimans +1 charge after firing, Vanguard can get out and jump a total of 15" over any screening units to get to guard tanks or artillery or chace down fast moving Tau or eldar who might have seen the charge coming and tried to run away. I give them storm shields so good luck killing them in overwatch too. Otherwise they hop over the target units and charge them from the rear to still take advantage of the massive aura bubble you've now created... Roll some dice and watch stuff die... Die... get it ... nmMade all the more amusing by the fact that what ever is left of your opponents army gets punished further if they kill anything because of the banner. Try it, it's fun. I have run him from 50 power to 75 power all the way up to 2500 points.Has anyone else build close combat armies around him?I don't even bother building a gun line with him, there's no point. Stick Calgar, Honour guard, Lieutenant (mine takes a hammer for the fun of even more D3 damage) and Chapter Ancient with Banner of the Emperor Ascendant in a Land Raider Crusader with jump pack Vanguard vets and then stick a couple terminator units in teleport. You will still have points left over for a fire Base to lend fire support for turn one. Land Raider drives forward and fires getting buffs from Guilliman as he goes 8"+D6+1 and then turn 2 everything gets out and Termies teleport in and use Guillimans +1 charge after firing, Vanguard can get out and jump a total of 15" over any screening units to get to guard tanks or artillery or chace down fast moving Tau or eldar who might have seen the charge coming and tried to run away. I give them storm shields so good luck killing them in overwatch too. Otherwise they hop over the target units and charge them from the rear to still take advantage of the massive aura bubble you've now created... Roll some dice and watch stuff die... Die... get it ... nmMade all the more amusing by the fact that what ever is left of your opponents army gets punished further if they kill anything because of the banner. Try it, it's fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted May 28, 2018 Share Posted May 28, 2018 I don't know if I'd do that anymore. What I don't like is it feels like all marine stuff is starting to really feel dated all of the sudden. It bothers me because I remember in 7th when this happened they came out with that ridiculous formation I hated using it. I don't want to turn this into a 'fix marines' thread. It's good as a Guilliman thread because frankly I love the guy. I'm not sure if I'll ever paint him up again though. That being said I just attended an ITC GT locally this past weekend (I played Death Guard) and there were... 2-3 Codex Astartes armies in total (I don't count the special codex chapters) and one guy did okay. One guy. Basically it's that trick with the Raven Guard. There was no Guilliman at all, and the most successful list just infiltrated Shrike and Aggressors as usual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted May 28, 2018 Share Posted May 28, 2018 Guilliman is overpriced at this point, unfortunately Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted May 29, 2018 Share Posted May 29, 2018 I don't think he is if the army was just better. Like Terminators having 3 wounds and hitting on a 2+ (no points change) and a multitude of other things, all would make Guilliman better value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted May 29, 2018 Share Posted May 29, 2018 Yeah, I definitely agree. If other units were cheaper and more effective he would be a great choice again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLŒ FLY Posted May 29, 2018 Share Posted May 29, 2018 I run Custodes as an ally and it’s really working out quite well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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