Close Combat options for us

[Strata]

I've been working on building up a decently sized force of Thousand Sons lately, Though I feel that i am at a loss as to what to do for a combat element of my forces. I currently have two 10 man rubric squads, 1 5 man scarab occult, 3 exaulted, Ahriman, as well as 20 Tzangors. Honestly though, i don't care much for the Tzangors. They never seem to pull their weight for me. So I'm not really sure what else to use.

[Zodd1888]

Lately I've been using Tzaangors as second turn webway after I've taken a charge into my Rubrics. If they're locked into chaff or an assault unit I will wipe the squad with goats. Enlightened are awesome for objectives.

[Tyriks]

Enlightened with spears and some support are looking very good to me (on paper; haven't actually played them).  With a shaman and prescience they are hitting on 2s and auto-wounding on 4+ for d2 when they charge.  Sure, they'll die to a stiff breeze, but they're cheap enough that it's not a big deal.  They're definitely on my to-buy list.

[Kite Senet]

I've found standard Tzaangors to be quite excellent, honestly, in the few games of 40k I've played. I imagine they'd be our best melee-centric option, considering they have Cycle of Slaughter to help them out.

 

I've had similar topics on my mind lately too; namely, I know Scarab Occult Terminators have their power swords, and I'm a bit curious as to how well those work out in melee. They're next on my painting table--I had to literally dust them off with a cheap brush earlier today to prepare them, since they've been collecting dust for over a year primed but not painted now--and since I'm now at 30 fully painted Rubricae I'd kinda like to field something that can throw a proper punch. I won't assume it'll compare to Tzaangors, but for something with a decent amount of firepower that doesn't just waffle when melee begins, I'm intrigued.

[Raven1]

For the points Tzaangors are good. I think they are the only "chaff" with a 5++ even Brimestone horrors are 6++ now.

 

Enlightened with spears can work, Spawn aren't terrible in melee.

 

Demon Prince with claws is like 7 attacks.

 

Exalted sorcerer with power sword, were ban is situational but can be useful.

 

The mutilith or dinobots/defiler

[sneakybamsen]

Being primarily a DA player, I look though my TS codex and drool over the options available for at least decent melee units (terminators with power fists aren't great, only deathwing knights are strong in close combat, but they are expensive, assault marines don't do assault very well). Tzaangors in numbers of 20+ (I'm going for 30 with dual blades), claw princes, spawn with several in a unit, 3-5 with stratagem(s). Defilers are nasty too in melee, and with stratagems, they do shoot well.

[Sonoftherubric21]

A duel power sword sorcerer even without seers bane is actually fine for melee, toss a diabolic on him and hes dropping 6 attacks at str 6, ap -3, he will nue any 1 wound model and pretty well, I like it when taking a sorcerer having one like that. 

Maulerfiends and Defilers are both great melee.  Mutalith can suffice (assuming your taking anyway) for the buffs and auras with a possible 12 attacks against a unit so he can also grind chaff pretty well. Helbrutes are fine, but relatively fragile, id rather spend the extra points and get a Daemon Engine, or Contemptor if your FW friendly.  Defilers hit like freight trains in melee. 4 base attacks + 3 with scourge. Toss on Diabolic strength and prescience for some really hilarious effects...such as pulping even something like a Redemptor dreadnought in a turn or two. 

Tzaangors for main-line melee unit, they are *chaff* only in the loosest sense of the word, pretty good all around and points effective with good statline (in many situations stastically the same or better then a space marine for 5 points less. 

 

For me personally Spawn are actually fantastic; take a unit of 3-5, march them into something and watch people ignore them....and they will absolutely SHRED anything they touch.  Spend 1 measly command point on that squad and watch them obliterate anything short of a T8 model with ease, and even put threat on the bigger boys. at First I doubted them....but after seeing them a couple times with fated mutation stratagem?  Mind blowing.  Caveat: unit NEEDS to be 3-5 big. single ones are to random to be useful. 

[Nym]

Spend 1 measly command point on that squad and watch them obliterate anything short of a T8 model with ease, and even put threat on the bigger boys. 

Actually, even T8 isn't safe from them, as they're Strentgh 5 and re-rolling to Wound. 5 of these guys can put 8 wounds on a Leman Russ with a single CP spent and no psychic buff. They're awesome.

 

Defensively they're pretty average though, so they might be good candidates for Glamour and Weaver.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

Scarab Occult do fine in HTH with one caveat: You need to spend for Vets of the Long War every Fight Phase. If you can do that, they can be quite effective because of the Power Sword AP.

 

Also, don't forget the "rope a dope" tactic where you let an enemy charge your Rubrics and then use Prescience, Glamour, and Vets of the Long War on the Rubrics while you Smite the attacking unit (units in CC are valid targets in the Psychic Phase). You can be hitting on 2's, rerolling 1's (via a character), and then wounding on 3's, while dealing guaranteed mortal wounds. That will break many units in a hurry and eventually wear down a lot of big stuff.

 

NOTE: Generally requires the "Ru-Brick" strategy where you use a block of 20.

 

NOTE #2: Yeah, Spawn are nasty in our army.

[Quixus]

NOTE: Generally requires the "Ru-Brick" strategy where you use a block of 20.

Isn't that like a quarter of your army? For that price tag you could get Magnus.

[Panzer]

20 Rubrics > Magnus I say ... as someone with only theory knowledge about TSons

[Sonoftherubric21]

 

NOTE: Generally requires the "Ru-Brick" strategy where you use a block of 20.

Isn't that like a quarter of your army? For that price tag you could get Magnus.

 

 

In my experience it almost always pays its points back, if not in straight damage output then in distraction.  But you do need to design around it so that is something to bare in mind. 

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

 

NOTE: Generally requires the "Ru-Brick" strategy where you use a block of 20.

Isn't that like a quarter of your army? For that price tag you could get Magnus.

 

Yes....and against a competitive Alaitoc Eldar army I had just under 10 of them survive to game end in Turn 6. They accounted for 2 6-man units of Rangers, 2 3-man bike squads, 1 Jetbike Warlock, and the finishing blow on the enemy Farseer after he was wounded by Ahriman.

 

They also kept Ahriman and a walking Daemon Prince alive to reach CC against the above, plus various quantities of fire from 4 additional Jetbike squads, 2 squads of Dark Reapers, 3 D-Cannons, and 3 Crimson Hunters. They scored objectives on their way up the board, too (ObSec), and I won the game by 3 Maelstrom points.

 

I still had room for 2 Daemon Princes, Ahriman, a Terminator Sorcerer, 3x5 Terminators, a 30-man Goat Bomb, and a smaller 10-man squad of Goats. Between the Reapers and Hunters, Magnus would have been quite dead by the end.

 

I had a similar solid showing against a less competitive Space Wolf list.

 

The key is to keep your characters in the center of the brick and layer buffs on it while grinding your way up the table firing masses of Inferno-Bolter and Soulreaper shots that hit on 2's, rerolling 1's, and get wound bonuses from Vets of the Long War. This necessitates Prescience, Glamour of Tzeentch, and Weaver of Fates all be cast on the unit for durability and power. Since it can engage and destroy multiple squads of infantry each turn, you still get the offensive output you need. Charging it is also a nightmare, because most of the buffs work in CC too and the Overwatch fire gets pretty thick, plus there is a Daemon Prince waiting to countercharge.

[sneakybamsen]

 

 

NOTE: Generally requires the "Ru-Brick" strategy where you use a block of 20.

Isn't that like a quarter of your army? For that price tag you could get Magnus.

 

Yes....and against a competitive Alaitoc Eldar army I had just under 10 of them survive to game end in Turn 6. They accounted for 2 6-man units of Rangers, 2 3-man bike squads, 1 Jetbike Warlock, and the finishing blow on the enemy Farseer after he was wounded by Ahriman.

 

They also kept Ahriman and a walking Daemon Prince alive to reach CC against the above, plus various quantities of fire from 4 additional Jetbike squads, 2 squads of Dark Reapers, 3 D-Cannons, and 3 Crimson Hunters. They scored objectives on their way up the board, too (ObSec), and I won the game by 3 Maelstrom points.

 

I still had room for 2 Daemon Princes, Ahriman, a Terminator Sorcerer, 3x5 Terminators, a 30-man Goat Bomb, and a smaller 10-man squad of Goats. Between the Reapers and Hunters, Magnus would have been quite dead by the end.

 

I had a similar solid showing against a less competitive Space Wolf list.

 

The key is to keep your characters in the center of the brick and layer buffs on it while grinding your way up the table firing masses of Inferno-Bolter and Soulreaper shots that hit on 2's, rerolling 1's, and get wound bonuses from Vets of the Long War. This necessitates Prescience, Glamour of Tzeentch, and Weaver of Fates all be cast on the unit for durability and power. Since it can engage and destroy multiple squads of infantry each turn, you still get the offensive output you need. Charging it is also a nightmare, because most of the buffs work in CC too and the Overwatch fire gets pretty thick, plus there is a Daemon Prince waiting to countercharge.

 

 

I does sound like something I'd look at trying once I get my TS up to speed :)

[Lustmoerder]

 

 

NOTE: Generally requires the "Ru-Brick" strategy where you use a block of 20.

Isn't that like a quarter of your army? For that price tag you could get Magnus.

Yes....and against a competitive Alaitoc Eldar army I had just under 10 of them survive to game end in Turn 6. They accounted for 2 6-man units of Rangers, 2 3-man bike squads, 1 Jetbike Warlock, and the finishing blow on the enemy Farseer after he was wounded by Ahriman.

 

They also kept Ahriman and a walking Daemon Prince alive to reach CC against the above, plus various quantities of fire from 4 additional Jetbike squads, 2 squads of Dark Reapers, 3 D-Cannons, and 3 Crimson Hunters. They scored objectives on their way up the board, too (ObSec), and I won the game by 3 Maelstrom points.

 

I still had room for 2 Daemon Princes, Ahriman, a Terminator Sorcerer, 3x5 Terminators, a 30-man Goat Bomb, and a smaller 10-man squad of Goats. Between the Reapers and Hunters, Magnus would have been quite dead by the end.

 

I had a similar solid showing against a less competitive Space Wolf list.

 

The key is to keep your characters in the center of the brick and layer buffs on it while grinding your way up the table firing masses of Inferno-Bolter and Soulreaper shots that hit on 2's, rerolling 1's, and get wound bonuses from Vets of the Long War. This necessitates Prescience, Glamour of Tzeentch, and Weaver of Fates all be cast on the unit for durability and power. Since it can engage and destroy multiple squads of infantry each turn, you still get the offensive output you need. Charging it is also a nightmare, because most of the buffs work in CC too and the Overwatch fire gets pretty thick, plus there is a Daemon Prince waiting to countercharge.

I love the idea but some of the popular lists I see (DA plasma spam for instance) almost seem custom made to flatten it. How do you deal without big carnifexes to draw fire aside from the rubrics? I see so much fire over 1 damage now from a lot of the armies I face but I love the idea of rubricks and rubric centric forces in general but struggle with how to pilot them.Any input from your experience?

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

 

 

 

NOTE: Generally requires the "Ru-Brick" strategy where you use a block of 20.

Isn't that like a quarter of your army? For that price tag you could get Magnus.

Yes....and against a competitive Alaitoc Eldar army I had just under 10 of them survive to game end in Turn 6. They accounted for 2 6-man units of Rangers, 2 3-man bike squads, 1 Jetbike Warlock, and the finishing blow on the enemy Farseer after he was wounded by Ahriman.

 

They also kept Ahriman and a walking Daemon Prince alive to reach CC against the above, plus various quantities of fire from 4 additional Jetbike squads, 2 squads of Dark Reapers, 3 D-Cannons, and 3 Crimson Hunters. They scored objectives on their way up the board, too (ObSec), and I won the game by 3 Maelstrom points.

 

I still had room for 2 Daemon Princes, Ahriman, a Terminator Sorcerer, 3x5 Terminators, a 30-man Goat Bomb, and a smaller 10-man squad of Goats. Between the Reapers and Hunters, Magnus would have been quite dead by the end.

 

I had a similar solid showing against a less competitive Space Wolf list.

 

The key is to keep your characters in the center of the brick and layer buffs on it while grinding your way up the table firing masses of Inferno-Bolter and Soulreaper shots that hit on 2's, rerolling 1's, and get wound bonuses from Vets of the Long War. This necessitates Prescience, Glamour of Tzeentch, and Weaver of Fates all be cast on the unit for durability and power. Since it can engage and destroy multiple squads of infantry each turn, you still get the offensive output you need. Charging it is also a nightmare, because most of the buffs work in CC too and the Overwatch fire gets pretty thick, plus there is a Daemon Prince waiting to countercharge.

I love the idea but some of the popular lists I see (DA plasma spam for instance) almost seem custom made to flatten it. How do you deal without big carnifexes to draw fire aside from the rubrics? I see so much fire over 1 damage now from a lot of the armies I face but I love the idea of rubricks and rubric centric forces in general but struggle with how to pilot them.Any input from your experience?

Note I said that Weaver of Fates and Glamour of Tzeentch were cast on the Brick. Negative 1 to hit and +1 invuln go a long way toward helping soak heavy weapon fire (Neg 1 makes supercharging extremely dangerous).

 

I also said I had two Daemon Princes, 3 squads of 5 Terminators each, and a 30 man Tzaangor bomb. That's plenty of incentive to split fire, and every model on the table had at least 5++ if not better.

 

I dealt with 3 Crimson Hunters, 2 squads of Dark Reapers, and 3 D-Cannons just fine. That's usually all multi-damage.

[Lustmoerder]

Sweet! I've been trying to compose lists with the rubrick as one of the core components and your clarification helps a lot. I'm looking at different variations of supporting and complimentary units to see what feels best to me but nothing stands out as much better than what you mentioned. I'm trying to shoehorn Magnus in for the simple fact that I'm painting him now and proud of the paint job. I'll likely not use him forever unless he works of course. Thanks again - I've lurked these forums since starting in 40k and have learned tons from your posts.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

Sweet! I've been trying to compose lists with the rubrick as one of the core components and your clarification helps a lot. I'm looking at different variations of supporting and complimentary units to see what feels best to me but nothing stands out as much better than what you mentioned. I'm trying to shoehorn Magnus in for the simple fact that I'm painting him now and proud of the paint job. I'll likely not use him forever unless he works of course. Thanks again - I've lurked these forums since starting in 40k and have learned tons from your posts.

Thank you very much. Glad I could help.

[sneakybamsen]

I actually came up with the thought of building an all-comers melee-happy thousand sons list. No expert, as I previously mentioned, but how aobut something along the lines of:

20 man rubric squad with 2 soulreapers

30 tzaangors with brayhorn

3rd troop choice, could be MSU cultists to camp an objective (not too melee happy).

daemon prince with claws and wings

dual sword exalted sorceror on disk

ahriman on disc

shaman to buff tzaangors+enlightened

Scarab Occult unit (5 guys with hellfyre missile rack and soulreaper cannon)

defiler with twinlas and scourge

spawn unit of 4+

9 enlightened with spears

 

It's not going to be beating khorne or blood angels in melee output, but I think it could be fun. The above sits in the 2000 points area. What do you guys think?