Should Games Workshop use a 3D printing company for the "sma

[slitth]

As the topic says should Games Workshop use a 3D printing company for the "small stuff"

 

Personally I would love to see this, because there are some small thing I would like to get from a official GW source and not a 3rd party.

I love this hobby and I would like it to continue, so I want as much of the money I spend on it to go the the company that produce the things I love.

 

But I also understand that something are not cost effective to produce in small numbers or have in stock for the few people for wants a niche product.

And with niche products I am referring heads, pauldron, icons, backpacks and other small upgrades.

 

As an example I continually building my Alpha Legion army. So I something run out of pauldron with the hydra mark.

As I said before I do not expect Forge World or Games Workshop to always have a stock that follow my needs.

After all only buy a medium size order of pauldron and the like when I run out and the companies can just sit and wait for me to use more money a niche product. So if they drop they Alpha Legion pauldron from production I would understand.

 

But what do I do when I need the next order of pauldron and GW or FW do not have them in stock?

Well I could use a 3rd party provider, but that would support companies that sometime get a little to close to copyright infringement for my taste.

 

As I see it there is few choice for WG to fulfil my niche product needs.

One is to open their own 3D printing range, that only produce product when needed. (That would be really cool)

The other is to find a company that does this for them.

 

Well that my opinion about this.

What is yours?

[Kite Senet]

This actually brings up a plausible explanation of why ForgeWorld has recently seemingly discontinued a large amount of its smaller conversion bits; if they've got their hands on a high-precision 3d printer we might be seeing new conversion kits using 3d printing instead of resin.

 

The question that theory would beg, however, would be: why only swap the small bits to 3d printing? I thought resin was particularly good at small scales and worse at larger scale. Wouldn't it make more sense to swap the large stuff over first?

[MARK0SIAN]

For me it would depend on the cost of the final product. GW can justify some of the cost of the plastic and even the resin by how much it costs to tool the machines and produce moulds as well as the original sculpting process.

 

However 3D printing by definition doesn’t require moulds and specialist tooling of machinery. So once they had the design nailed down that would be the bulk of the cost done. Therefore the 3D printed upgrade pieces should be sold at a relatively cheap price.

 

However that isn’t GWs usual practice. I can see them using a 3D printing company for those small upgrade sets but still charging the same price as if they’d been made of resin or plastic. In that case I don’t think there’s anything to be gained from them using another company as a lot of people will just use the cheaper companies making unofficial ones.

[ERJAK]

Pretty sure GW already has super high-end 3d printers and a lot of experience using them. I can't see  them using a middleman for it.

[Jarl Caldersson]

I wonder how much electricity is used to make resin models and how much to make 3d printed items. If it is less electecity could it be poasible. The reason I ask is that awhile ago there was those rumors that GW was reaching their electrical grid ceiling. Not sure how true those rumors are.

[slitth]

3d printing has the benefit of versatility, but it not practical to use when producing in large quantities.

So you often use 3d printing to produce the prototype for a product.

Then you use moulds for large scale production.

 

You do this because you can produce far more products per production run with moulds that you can with 3D printing.

 

There is also the added cost with 3D versatility that you need some one to reset the machine for each production.

That take extra time and cost. Because you need more machines and people to man them to run a large scale 3D printing production with current technology.

 

This is why WG and FW are still using moulds for the big production runs. Its fare more cost effective with the current marked.

 

So the question would be if there are enough niche product orders to justice running a 3D printer in house.

[SickSix]

As progressive as the new GW has been, theu ain't that progressive! They are still IP nazis with their actual models. (Any other medium and they farm out their IP like a 2 bit hooker)

 

Great idea that would give them a steady stream of residual income, but not going to happen.

 

Better chance GW proper starts releasing more overpriced plastic chapter conversion sets.

[Bluedoo]

If they don't already, I'm sure GW/FW has already begun to explore this realm and consider the cost difference, if it is large enough. 

 

Keep in mind, the items that grow close to the infringement that makes you uncomfortable are fulfilling a demand that the catalog currently doesn't. Many people go to these places for the price difference I know, but I'm speaking of something along the lines of Pre-Thousand Sons "M," shoulder pads, Luna Wolves, etc. 

 

I'd like to see something along the lines of what you're asking for, however I don't see it happening. The money is in large kits, not in smaller purchases (IMO, based off of the current changes and selections offered). 

[slitth]

I would love to see plastic chapter conversion sets, but I do not think that we see them.

 

The idea of using a 3D printing company is to sell the small scale stuff that it not profitable to make in house.

That way to are maximising their IP and are also opening up on hunting down the unwanted 3rd party companies that are make similar products.

 

Take a company like shapeways. If WG started to use that, then they could hunt down all other users that make what they are selling on shapeways.

After all it is there IP.

They also have a way to seeing when there is a big enough marked to take it off shapeways and start making plastic sets instead

I can only see a win/win situation for WG is such a case.

[Kinstryfe]

I think the problem is that many or even most chapter symbols are effectively a common enough motif that I don't think GW can claim IP rights on it. While the entirely of a 1kSons marine, for example, can easily be claimed as a package aesthetic, I'm pretty sure that an 8 pointed wavy star or a capital M are common enough geometric shapes that they wouldn't really be defensible. That's one reason why you see a lot more bits being offered by 3rd parties than you do completed miniatures. An upside down Omega, a gauntlet, a winged skull, a wolf's head...I don't think any of these could likely be trademarked on their own. So GW breaking into this market means they would need to compete at a comparable price without really being able to control the copycats. If each legion and chapter had used some kind of unique rune for their marking I think it'd be possible, but they've kind of worked themselves into a situation where they've used so much in the public domain for so long that the most sensible thing for them is probably to just ignore that market unless something infringes on their IP that they can actually defend.

[Subtle Discord]

3D printing is still somewhat limited by material characteristics (most high-res 3D prints are rather delicate and brittle) and very cost prohibitive as a final production method. It simply does not scale up well and comes with much upkeep, maintenance, and high material costs. Oh, and it's ssslllooowww; the only way to get the high resolution that people demand is to work with small build areas and layer thicknesses in the 10-20 micron range. It can take 8-12 hours to print something 3cm tall (bits may be shorter, but it's still painfully slow), then it needs a few hours UV cure time, and more time to do cleanup; also, who takes care of the cleanup, the customer or the printer? It can work for the small-scale producer but to take on volumes that GW would want to fill, well that's a major undertaking and I just don't think GW would see the kinds of margins in it to be attractive to them. Even now, the turn-around from a dedicated company like Shapeways is in the 4-6 weeks range, last I used them. That's not to say the technology isn't continuing to mature swiftly, but it's just not there, yet. It's amazing, trust me, but it's got a bit further to go and I say this as an Industrial Designer who's been following 3D printing for miniature making for 10+ years and I'm currently in the process of setting up a high-resolution 3D printer for my studio even as I write this. It's perfect for producing casting masters (FW is already producing their masters this way) but it's got some serious limitations to do larger scale production on its own to make it really compelling to a company that has so much ability to produce in more efficient ways already in-house. I suspect that they don't make tons of small conversion kits for long is because they're just not profitable enough to devote serious resources towards, otherwise, they would have already. GW is very production savvy and they know what they're doing and what's out there. They'll pursue it if/when it's got the right numbers to make it realistic.

[Corswain]

I think if GW could find a profitable compromise between quality and cost, then they would be doing it already. Until they find that sweet spot in the venn diagram, they’ll stick to plastic and resin.

Eventually they’ll go there but at the moment plastic is the better alternative for them.

[Calyptra]

Regarding pauldrons specifically I think there are options for the hobbyist. You can print waterside transfers, or make a stencil, or make a press mold. Or just paint it.

 

I'm honestly not sure what all Forge World discontinued (other than that it was a bunch of space marine stuff) but I agree that little conversion kits would be great. I'd love to see Kabal conversion kits!

 

I don't know that 3D printing small parts runs would be cheaper compared to casting in resin (or metal).

[Laughingman]

As progressive as the new GW has been, theu ain't that progressive! They are still IP nazis with their actual models. (Any other medium and they farm out their IP like a 2 bit hooker)

 

Great idea that would give them a steady stream of residual income, but not going to happen.

 

Better chance GW proper starts releasing more overpriced plastic chapter conversion sets.

 

 

 

 

Personally never understood there bizarre stance with IP, GW learned the hard way that when you take someone to court for IP issues the only winners are the lawyers. A better solutions is forcing 3rd party sellers to pay royalties (lucasfilms historically was known for this with regards to unlicensed prop makers, forcing them into a limited license, less for actual income and more for IP control). Of course as long as the IP and Finance cronies hired by Tom Kirby continue to exert influence nothing is going to change... 

[Zuvassin]

Personal opinions on conversion bits going away: I think brass was too expensive being a third party kit vs probably low sales, and a part of me wonders if they'd rather come out with new resin bits you can add to anything - ie instead of having to maintain 2 or more versions of Iron Warriors shoulder pads, why not just do a separate IW skull that can applied to any shoulder pad?

 

I mean, I'm hoping that's the case. That they're simplifying inventory and production by removing the armour mark dependent stuff to be replaced by items that are more agnostic/neutral towards that.

 

Anyways, back to the OP's point, I've wished for a while that GW would be willing to do two things:

 

1. Open up the backlog of OOP bits to a willing third party, or even a FW like entity. For example, things like taking over the old metal lines and letting another company handle the casting and inventory for a % or a flat licensing fee or what have you. Granted, from what I've heard a lot of the old masters were destroyed, but it'd be nice if there was a way for OOP products (metal, plastic, or resin) to find a new home after GW/FW itself doesn't want to directly support them.
    
2. Create a licensing system for third-party bitz makers that would make them "official" for the purposes of providing sanctioned bits for things like Imperial Guard or Marine armies. Even if they wouldn't want to allow full kits like an alternative line of Imperial Guard figures (bodies plus heads plus weapons), at least allowing alternate heads for Cadian kits or somesuch would be really cool.

[slitth]

 

Personal opinions on conversion bits going away: I think brass was too expensive being a third party kit vs probably low sales, and a part of me wonders if they'd rather come out with new resin bits you can add to anything - ie instead of having to maintain 2 or more versions of Iron Warriors shoulder pads, why not just do a separate IW skull that can applied to any shoulder pad?

 

I mean, I'm hoping that's the case. That they're simplifying inventory and production by removing the armour mark dependent stuff to be replaced by items that are more agnostic/neutral towards that.

 

Well they have that new plastic mix that they use for Creeping Vines. It's supposed to be flexible.

 

Perhaps that flexible enough to create a iconography kit for each legion that provides faction that can go on pauldrons and vehicles

Kinda like the transfer sheets, but in plastic.

 

Edit: The flexible plastic is not the way to do, as it designed to have as few contact points glued and not an entire surface

Trying to put is on a pauldron would cause it to break.

 

But a hard plastic kit with curved iconography for pauldrons and big flat ones for vehicles would work.

And would probably be cheaper and easier than making faction specific pauldrons and vehicle doors.

[Claws and Effect]

The main thing I go to 3rd parties for is pauldrons of Space Marine Chapters that receive little or no support from GW or FW.

 

If it's a lesser known or really obscure Chapter it's a safe bet there will be absolutely nothing official available for it.

 

For example, can you recall seeing anything at all for the Fire Lords? (pulled a random Chapter from memory) I mean, there's barely even an official color scheme. Or the Night Watch? Or the Revilers, even though they have been involved in canon fluff?

 

I want to keep my Deathwatch consistent. It would look off if some had molded pads, some had transfers, and some had (bad looking) free hand paint.

 

GW should absolutely look into at least licensing 3rd parties to produce things they clearly have no intention of doing themselves.

[Zuvassin]

I also forgot to mention I wish they'd be willing to license transfer sheets as well. It's struck me for a while that GW doesn't really seem to actually like having to do transfer sheets - the way they went from the glory of 2nd ed CSM sheets (with each icon having variants) to the 3rd edition onward sheets where the icons are very basic and copy-pasted 10 times), just makes me think that since 3rd ed or so, they've kinda done the bare minimum, esp compared to FW's sheets.

 

It'd be nice seeing someone resurrect old transfer sheets as a licensed product, or do variants for things like sheets of Chaos runes, graffiti type writing (similar to the Word Bearers FW sheet), hazard stripes and checkered stripes, etc.

[sarabando]

so ive been looking at shapeways for some bits, and im always ready to moan about GWs pricing but how can those people thing charging $20 for a SINGLE cataphractii shoulderpad is ok? im well away of the time and cost of 3d printing and it simply is not worth it to the consumer.

[Zuvassin]

Are you sure it's a Cataphractii pad and not an Imperial Knight pad? There's a few on shapeways that are actually meant for Knights but look a lot like Cataphractii shoulders.

[DBadger]

They could and should outsource it. Every bit ever produced by Citadel could be available, OOP ones by scanning the parts themselves. 3D printing is the sort of thing that can be done to-order at the costs I'd be talking - basically bit store prices - so there is no need to restrict inventory. If GW has produced it it should be buyable, bit by bit. And they don't have to set anything up at all themselves, outsource it to one of the readily available sites, the ones already making counterfeit* parts to order.

 

* come on, some are blatant

[slitth]

They could and should outsource it. Every bit ever produced by Citadel could be available, OOP ones by scanning the parts themselves. 3D printing is the sort of thing that can be done to-order at the costs I'd be talking - basically bit store prices - so there is no need to restrict inventory. If GW has produced it it should be buyable, bit by bit. And they don't have to set anything up at all themselves, outsource it to one of the readily available sites, the ones already making counterfeit* parts to order.

 

* come on, some are blatant

 

I think it would be best if only things that are out of production or have not be released large scale should be outsourced.

 

GW, FW and 3rd party 3D printer company should not compete with each other, but augment their production lines.

So if I want to build a 30K Alpha Legion army, I would get my Mark IV Space Marines from GW, special units and characters from FW and iconography 3D printed

[Evil Eye]

*snip*

Pretty much this. I love 3D printing but it has a long way to go before it's at a level suitable for mass production of miniature parts. Granted I don't have a printer myself but I use Shapeways a fair bit, and their more affordable (and also very durable) plastic is quite rough and grainy, not holding detail well, whilst their smoother, more refined plastics are somewhat brittle and very costly, and even they need a fair bit of sanding to be tabletop quality.

 

If they sold OOP models/parts or niche upgrade kits as downloadable .stl files that people with printers could make themselves though, that would be cool. The price per file would have to be quite high due to the fact it would be a one-time purchase for a theoretically indefinite number of prints, but I think it'd be worth it.

 

Another idea would be if they ran contests where people could submit 3D models to the studio and the best results would be refined and made into actual production miniatures.

[Corswain]

 

If they sold OOP models/parts or niche upgrade kits as downloadable .stl files that people with printers could make themselves though, that would be cool. The price per file would have to be quite high due to the fact it would be a one-time purchase for a theoretically indefinite number of prints, but I think it'd be worth it.

I don’t think they will (or should) ever do that. Too easy for exploitation and it would kill their business.

[sarabando]

 

 

If they sold OOP models/parts or niche upgrade kits as downloadable .stl files that people with printers could make themselves though, that would be cool. The price per file would have to be quite high due to the fact it would be a one-time purchase for a theoretically indefinite number of prints, but I think it'd be worth it.

I don’t think they will (or should) ever do that. Too easy for exploitation and it would kill their business.

 

if any one is going to create a system that allows a limited number of prints before the file corrupts forcing you to buy another it will be GeeDub XD.