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Telemon Heavy Dreadnought 40k BETA Rules


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#51
Black Orange

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Yeah they are way overpointed and I hope they will address it for the Telemon.



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#52
Mr. Funktastic

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My Telemon hasn't come in from FW yet but looking at everything this is exactly the long ranged fire support Custodes needed. The Arachnus Las-storm is great for anti-horde and against heavy infantry and units with good invulnerable saves while the Iliastus Accelerator Culverins are great for anti-tank and light vehicles (something Custodes has trouble addressing at range). At 310 pts for two Accelerator Culverins and on a 2+/4++/6+++ firing platform with 15 wounds, the Telemon is a great anti-armor option for the points.

 

Only thing I'd want to see changed is points adjustments for the caestus and twin plasma ejectors, they're just way too much for what they are. I'd adjust the points for single/pair of fists to 50/55 pts respectively (dropping 10 pts) and drop the twin plasma ejectors to 40 pts, 20 pts cheaper than before. I'd also give some kind of bonus to taking two fists as there's really no point in taking two aside from a second plasma ejector (even then, I'd rather have a second gun for more useful shooting). Something simple like an extra attack for taking two combined with the proposed points reduction, full melee might not be so bad. Might submit this feedback to FW even though I haven't gotten a game in with it yet since most of these seem like no brainers.



#53
swordofmandulis

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I think taking 1 fist is totally unviable. Strongest load out looks to be twin culverin, with double fist for fun time lulz.

#54
Mr. Funktastic

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I can see taking one fist to deter chargers and making it useful in melee and then taking either an Arachnus Las-Storm or Accelerator Culverin on the other arm, but at that point I'm deep striking him in my opponent's face to wreck face and shoot up some stuff and just being an all around threat rather than just sitting back and shooting, a completely different strategy. There's never any point to taking two fists, always take one fist and a gun if you need to. Overall though I think taking two ranged weapons is best but I might try out one fist and one gun sometime just for fun.


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#55
Black Orange

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9" movement I am going to get some melee in there !



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#56
TheHarpDaddy

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So while we’re comparing the fists, do we also think that the leviathan combat options are overcosted? Let’s use the general x2str, -3AP and 3 damage option as the comparison - that’s 55pts and only gets a secondary ability when it is paired.

The caestus is 5pts extra, doesn’t need to be taken in a pair to get a bonus secondary AND makes the telemon str18, which wounds everything in the game on a 2+ with rerolls. So if we look at that, it doesn’t really seem overcosted.

Or are we only saying that the fist is overcosted because you need to take a twin plasma ejector?

#57
Hellex_The_Thanatar

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So while we’re comparing the fists, do we also think that the leviathan combat options are overcosted? Let’s use the general x2str, -3AP and 3 damage option as the comparison - that’s 55pts and only gets a secondary ability when it is paired.

The caestus is 5pts extra, doesn’t need to be taken in a pair to get a bonus secondary AND makes the telemon str18, which wounds everything in the game on a 2+ with rerolls. So if we look at that, it doesn’t really seem overcosted.

Or are we only saying that the fist is overcosted because you need to take a twin plasma ejector?


Arguably I feel every dreadnought is over cost on melee. You get a few very powerful attacks, but a fat lot of good if your opponent has pulled off any shenanigans at all with hitting or has good invul.

I get that with deepstrike options dreads can be a terror...but they just aren't when there are so many shenanigans for getting units out of cc or simply tying it up.

The only solution I can think of is for all dread and monster variants to have an "slash" option. Instead of smashing with a few well placed strikes they should blender their way through foes. Maybe represent this by allowing dreads to charge THROUGH UNITS if they have cc?

Now that I think of it, something like sacrifice all cc attacks and do a movement + advance roll, everything hit takes x number of hits at base strength of dread that the dread passes through or ends up within 1" of. (Infantry only)

This would solve: horde lock down, and be a super unique to dread/monster type units to represent them simply wading through chaff.

#58
point_Zer0

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 A Leviathan is a full 100 points cheaper for -1S, 1MV for each bracket, and -2ld which rarely comes into play. It can also reroll wounds against infantry. If you give it Siege Drills, it goes up in AP and damage, so they'll be at -4AP and 4D for each hit. It goes up by about 10 points, making the difference a staggering 90 points. And yes, a Leviathan comes with 2 heavy flamers. 
 
The points on the melee weapons are massively off.


Add a droppod to leviathan cost and there are your 90 points difference (telemon can deepstrike for 1cp) .
Still no point in double DCCW though. 2d6 autohits aren't worth 120 points.

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#59
swordofmandulis

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A Leviathan is a full 100 points cheaper for -1S, 1MV for each bracket, and -2ld which rarely comes into play. It can also reroll wounds against infantry. If you give it Siege Drills, it goes up in AP and damage, so they'll be at -4AP and 4D for each hit. It goes up by about 10 points, making the difference a staggering 90 points. And yes, a Leviathan comes with 2 heavy flamers.

The points on the melee weapons are massively off.

Add a droppod to leviathan cost and there are your 90 points difference (telemon can deepstrike for 1cp) .
Still no point in double DCCW though. 2d6 autohits aren't worth 120 points.

It doesn't cost you an additional 120pts because the second fist only costs 5pts plus the cost of the 2nd plasma ejector. Don't get me wrong, I still think the ejectors are too expensive, and I also think 2 fists should give an additional CC attack.

#60
Charlo

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All Dread-fist weapons should count as "Pistol" if it's locked in melee. Just makes sense ;)


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#61
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That would make them weapons insta worth. But doesn't solve dreads that don't have built in weapons problems. Hellbrutes should get some TLC too! 



#62
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I’ve had a chance to have a go with the suggestions for the weapons I posted earlier in the thread. What was really helpful was running it alongside a Leviathan (well, a counts-as anyway) with twin Stormcannons.

The Las-Storm seemed better than the Stormcannon at killing medium (MEQ) infantry owing to wounding on 2s hurting more than knocking an extra point of armour off, but the Stormcannon hurt more against Aspect Warriors. The Stormcannon also seemed nastier against tougher infantry and lighter vehicles, but the Las-Storm worked nicely against medium (T7) vehicles. Overall I think the two guns are pretty much a wash, but the Las-Storm’s range gave it a distinct advantage in the first turn - the Levi had to move to get into range, the Telemon didn’t, so it was more accurate. After that first turn neither lacked targets in range while still alive. I think the Las-Storm is in a pretty comfortable spot as I changed it.

The Accelerator Cannon, on the other hand, was a bit much. Flat 3 Damage sounded powerful and yeah it definitely was. I think a drop to D3 damage, minimum 2 is a good compromise that makes it a valid option over the Las-Storm but not an auto-take.

The Spiculus Launcher actually ended up doing less work than the Leviathan’s twin Heavy Flamers, though that was because of a failed charge meaning it got two turns of Overwatching and one round of shooting them into one unit. The Spiculus couldn’t hit the broad side of a barn but that’s hardly typical.

So with a slight amendment this will be my feedback to GW:

Caestus - Str x2 AP-4 Dmg 4 60/65pts (single/pair) Reroll 1s to Wound in combat if armed with a pair
Plasma Injector - Rng 8” Str 7 AP-3 Dmg 1 Heavy 2D6 45pts Hits automatically
Accelerator Cannon - Rng 36” Str 8 AP-3 Dmg D3 Heavy 6 60pts This weapon does a minimum of 2 damage.
Las-Storm - Rng 48” Str 8 AP-1 Dmg 2 Heavy 10 60pts

Telemon with Spiculus Launcher and twin Caestus and Plasma Injectors - 375
Telemon with Spiculus Launcher and twin Accelerator Cannons - 340
Telemon with Spiculus Launcher and twin Las-Storms - 340

For comparison,

Leviathan Seige Drill - Str x2 AP-4 Dmg 4 55/65pts (single/pair)
Stormcannon Array - Rng 24” Str 7 AP-2 Dmg 2 Heavy 10 50pts

Leviathan with two Heavy Flamers, two Meltaguns and two Siege Drills - 308
Leviathan with two Heavy Flamers and twin Stormcannon Array - 309
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#63
Hellex_The_Thanatar

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I’ve had a chance to have a go with the suggestions for the weapons I posted earlier in the thread. What was really helpful was running it alongside a Leviathan (well, a counts-as anyway) with twin Stormcannons.

The Las-Storm seemed better than the Stormcannon at killing medium (MEQ) infantry owing to wounding on 2s hurting more than knocking an extra point of armour off, but the Stormcannon hurt more against Aspect Warriors. The Stormcannon also seemed nastier against tougher infantry and lighter vehicles, but the Las-Storm worked nicely against medium (T7) vehicles. Overall I think the two guns are pretty much a wash, but the Las-Storm’s range gave it a distinct advantage in the first turn - the Levi had to move to get into range, the Telemon didn’t, so it was more accurate. After that first turn neither lacked targets in range while still alive. I think the Las-Storm is in a pretty comfortable spot as I changed it.

The Accelerator Cannon, on the other hand, was a bit much. Flat 3 Damage sounded powerful and yeah it definitely was. I think a drop to D3 damage, minimum 2 is a good compromise that makes it a valid option over the Las-Storm but not an auto-take.

The Spiculus Launcher actually ended up doing less work than the Leviathan’s twin Heavy Flamers, though that was because of a failed charge meaning it got two turns of Overwatching and one round of shooting them into one unit. The Spiculus couldn’t hit the broad side of a barn but that’s hardly typical.

So with a slight amendment this will be my feedback to GW:

Caestus - Str x2 AP-4 Dmg 4 60/65pts (single/pair) Reroll 1s to Wound in combat if armed with a pair
Plasma Injector - Rng 8” Str 7 AP-3 Dmg 1 Heavy 2D6 45pts Hits automatically
Accelerator Cannon - Rng 36” Str 8 AP-3 Dmg D3 Heavy 6 60pts This weapon does a minimum of 2 damage.
Las-Storm - Rng 48” Str 8 AP-1 Dmg 2 Heavy 10 60pts

Telemon with Spiculus Launcher and twin Caestus and Plasma Injectors - 375
Telemon with Spiculus Launcher and twin Accelerator Cannons - 340
Telemon with Spiculus Launcher and twin Las-Storms - 340

For comparison,

Leviathan Seige Drill - Str x2 AP-4 Dmg 4 55/65pts (single/pair)
Stormcannon Array - Rng 24” Str 7 AP-2 Dmg 2 Heavy 10 50pts

Leviathan with two Heavy Flamers, two Meltaguns and two Siege Drills - 308
Leviathan with two Heavy Flamers and twin Stormcannon Array - 309


No changes to number of attacks or abilities? 



#64
kombatwombat

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No changes to number of attacks or abilities?


Nope, the profile seemed fine balanced against the Leviathan. It was reasonably durable save for when I rolled snake eyes on the invulnerable save against a pair of Brightlances... ouch. The increase to AP-4 Dmg4 on the Caestus is plenty with 4 attacks. I thought about Power of the Machine Spirit, but I don’t think it needs it.

#65
TheFinisher4Ever

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A Leviathan is a full 100 points cheaper for -1S, 1MV for each bracket, and -2ld which rarely comes into play. It can also reroll wounds against infantry. If you give it Siege Drills, it goes up in AP and damage, so they'll be at -4AP and 4D for each hit. It goes up by about 10 points, making the difference a staggering 90 points. And yes, a Leviathan comes with 2 heavy flamers.

The points on the melee weapons are massively off.

Add a droppod to leviathan cost and there are your 90 points difference (telemon can deepstrike for 1cp) .
Still no point in double DCCW though. 2d6 autohits aren't worth 120 points.
You can't really count the droppod in the cost considering that Deathwatch can drop in Leviathans with CP as well. And their Leviathans are the same price.

Also, I really like kombatwombat's suggestions. I will probably add those to my email as well.

Edited by TheFinisher4Ever, 17 May 2018 - 04:23 PM.

Ad Mech - 5,000 points

Blood Angels - 12,000 points

Dark Angels - 6,500 points

Deathwatch - 3,000 points

Eldar - 18,500 points

Imperial Fists - 5,000 points

Imperial Guard - 1,000 points

Grey Knights - 6,500 points

Sisters of Battle - 4,000 points

 


#66
kombatwombat

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Also, I really like kombatwombat's suggestions. I will probably add those to my email as well.


Please do!

On that point, if you agree with something anybody says, please don’t just trust that they’ll give that feedback, email GW with the same suggestion. The more consensus they get from fans the more likely the solution you like is to be implemented!




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