45 replies to this topic

[mjrwaud]

They may not be the most "optimal" unit choice for us at the moment but they're absolutely my favourite. I'd like to provoke some opinions and ask how might they be used in the best possible way?

 

In kill teams:

 

- Assault cannons or cyclone in longer range shooty squads?

- Lightning claws or thunder hammer / storm shield in a close up squad? Wound soakers only?

- Storm bolter + melta-fist in a shoot squad? Paired with a pistol vanguard vet?

 

In separate squad:

 

- 3 X Assault cannon bullet storm?

- 5 X storm bolter madness?

- Deep strike assault squad with hammernators or lightning claws?

 

I've got plenty of 'em at the moment in all sorts of loadouts but not sure how to use 'em best...

 

Thanks in advance!

[Drizzt79]

Too expensive, take a couple with basic loadout (SB + PS) to tank some low ap wounds for your fragcannon (expensive) veterans.

[Finkmilkana]

Until they get a price drop to c:SM levels, I don’t feel they have a place outside of wound soaker against ap-. Maybe cyclone ML support in a stalker Bolter squad, but I just feel that ML in general are overpriced (now if they could use a lascannon I might put some in).
Dedicated meele squads are either way a bad idea with DW and the AC is crippled by being heavy on squads that want to get close to the enemy (so at least being -1 to hit the first turn they shoot, at that point SIA SB veterans should deal more damage per point against almost all targets, at least inside 15’).

Pure Termi squads are simply to expensive compared to veteran squads deepstriking for 1 CP. And effectively 4 (incl. beacon) deep strike units should usually be enough.

[mjrwaud]

Until they get a price drop to c:SM levels, I don’t feel they have a place outside of wound soaker against ap-. Maybe cyclone ML support in a stalker Bolter squad, but I just feel that ML in general are overpriced (now if they could use a lascannon I might put some in).
Dedicated meele squads are either way a bad idea with DW and the AC is crippled by being heavy on squads that want to get close to the enemy (so at least being -1 to hit the first turn they shoot, at that point SIA SB veterans should deal more damage per point against almost all targets, at least inside 15’).

Pure Termi squads are simply to expensive compared to veteran squads deepstriking for 1 CP. And effectively 4 (incl. beacon) deep strike units should usually be enough.

 

Hmmmm, it's such a shame... I'd noticed that they're quite pricey in the codex (especially CMLs) but had hope'd they'd still be able to fit into useful niches. Also a shame that iconic weapons like the heavy flamer and lightning claws seem devoid of their own best use..

 

Doesn't the survivability, heavier weapons, and CP free deepstriking separate pure squads from veterans or vanguard?

 

I'll likely try combining one or two into kill teams, probably with either stormbolter + melta-fist or thunderhammer + stormshield.

[Moostick]

Take them for the rule of cool.

Remember to begin sending in those questions about Terminator points, everyone!

[mjrwaud]

Take them for the rule of cool.

Remember to begin sending in those questions about Terminator points, everyone!

 

The only rule that truly matters!

 

Done!

[Claws and Effect]

I'm doing a squad with an assault cannon and cyclone to be a difficult to shift deep strike nuisance.

[Finkmilkana]

Doesn't the survivability, heavier weapons, and CP free deepstriking separate pure squads from veterans or vanguard?

They are sadly even less survivable per point against the kind of weapons enemies would fire against them. Even if you give them storm shields, plasma kills almost twice as many points per shot than it would against vets, especially if you go heavy on special weapons (which you need to get close to the damage output of veterans).
The heavy weapons are nice in a vacuum , but do not gain SIA and are outclassed by SB/frag cannons. The possible exception to this is the CML at long range, but those also work better in a mixed squad with stalker bolters as DS and the SB termies are wasted at long range.

Rule of cool is obviously still a valid reason to field them. As is running out of SB veteran models, compared to simple bolter veterans they would have a place.

Edited by Finkmilkana, 12 May 2018 - 06:53 PM.

[Claws and Effect]

I'm using mine because I bought a kit on a whim before I realized how much they suck as Raven Guard.

[Felstone]

Maybe cyclone ML support in a stalker Bolter squad, but I just feel that ML in general are overpriced (now if they could use a lascannon I might put some in).

 

Cyclone ML + Storm bolter is the best option (special ammo).

[Captain Boyle]

A Terminator with CML is extremely expensive, costing as much as three bikers or 5 veterans.

I think five barebones terminators dropping into Rapidfire range and risking a 9" charge might be a pretty sound tactic for now. 20 SIA shots, right where you need them, no need to pay for teleporting.

Two of my terminators have Assault cannons but it's looking like they will be out performed by a SIA storm bolter, so there might be more arm removals in my future

[zero88]

The terminators are saved by being able to take regular power weapons instead of the fists. It let's them be cheaper while still being choppy due to massed power weapons

[Lysere]

A Terminator with CML is extremely expensive, costing as much as three bikers or 5 veterans.

I think five barebones terminators dropping into Rapidfire range and risking a 9" charge might be a pretty sound tactic for now. 20 SIA shots, right where you need them, no need to pay for teleporting.

Two of my terminators have Assault cannons but it's looking like they will be out performed by a SIA storm bolter, so there might be more arm removals in my future

In terms of infantry hunting assault cannons are pretty comparable to storm bolters since they're somewhere between hellfire and kraken but they're a heavy weapon so the turn the show up they won't be as good. Cyclones seem nice but the cost is too much in my mind.

[Moostick]

AC just looks cooler, but yes, they kind of went overboard on nerfing it. 22 pts is most definitely not worth 6 S6 AP-1 shots, and they took the hit because of AssBack spam (which really wasn't even that good after more codices came out).

 

CML is good if you have target saturation, which can be tough with DW. If you have a LC Dread on the board, the enemy will likely target that first before he decides to go through the infantry. Hopefully that lasts more than a turn.

 

Edit: Speaking of Terminators, our Terminator Captains and Sergeants can't take Powerfists, lol.

Edited by Moostick, 13 May 2018 - 02:26 AM.

[mjrwaud]

You're absolutely right!

When SIA and point values are taken into account the assault cannon really isn't that much better than a storm bolter... except in looks (which is debatable).

 

The more I look at it, taking a CML on a terminator in a kill team jumps up their cost so much that the veterans now become your bullet sponges to protect that heavy hitter. Better to take two vets with missile launchers methinks...

 

No plain power fists for Terminator Captains? You're right about that too... nor can they take a thunder hammer! They've got to trade their relic blade for another melee choice, which includes storm shield. On the (sort of) plus side you can have a breacher style Term. Captain with combi-weapon + storm shield. Seems like there's cause for another e-mail to GW...

[zero88]

5x Terminators with Power Axes and Storm Bolters is a flat 200pts. That makes for a good generalist reinforcement/counterattack unit. you can drop it where needed and hose out 20 SIA shots, and have 11 S5 AP-2 attacks in combat. The big thing I take is that squads of DW terminators are going to fail as a spearhead/shock unit, but used properly can still have uses.

[spacewatch]

You're absolutely right!

When SIA and point values are taken into account the assault cannon really isn't that much better than a storm bolter... except in looks (which is debatable).

...

 

I may have calculated it wrong but it looks like single AC actually (when not moving) is both more efficient (x2,8) and cost effective than single SB+SIA when shooting horde (T4Sv6) >12". When shooting <12" AC still is more efficient (x1,4) but SB becomes more cost effective than SB. Same happens when shooting MEQ or even TEQ. Problem is that two SB-Vets even with SS's cost < one AC-Terminator so there's just bullet sponge role available for Termies in my army. SB+SIA is actually so good I have started thinking what is the role of plasma, outside D2 shots, in my army.

[Prot]

Is no one looking at the Melta fist?

 

I know it's a weird outlier but I have always found vehicle type targets very difficult. I know with my Death Guard people swore by plasma but the ability that Death Guard have to take combi's got me using the Combi melta solution.

 

I swear by it now. It's more difficult to use than plasma but the proper implementation is game changing for me. 

 

What's killing me is Battlescribe isn't updated. So normally I make about 483 lists and play about a dozen test games.... So right now I can only theorize (I have the codex but I've been so busy I haven't had time to really pour over it).

 

Anyway, this theorizing and my DG experience leads me to a unit that will probably look like:

 

Deathwatch Captain in Termie armour with Melta fist, Stormbolter, and Relic Blade

Termie squad 5 with Stormbolter and Fists, with maybe one Stormshield/hammer? But definitely minimum one Missile launcher. 

 

The Missle Launcher Strats in this codex (I did read the strats) create a definite NEED for at least one Infantry based missile launcher in all of my lists. 

 

I have no idea what the cost of this is, but I like the diversity of the squad, and the potential damage output.

[Finkmilkana]

The problem with the Meltafist is that you have to also pay full price for the first (instead of being able to take a powersword to make the cost at least a bit less punishing). And using both to full effect on a single model is rather difficult . On a captain it can make sense though (got to take advantage of the BS/WS 2 after all).

[zero88]

Oh I have not overlooked it.. Watch Captain with Meltafist, Combi-Melta and the Warlord Trait that allows re-roll to wound vs vehicles and monsters IS COMING ..2 melta shots that re roll misses and wounds vs big nasties.. that's well worth 155 points and is going to look super cool too!

[Prot]

The problem with the Meltafist is that you have to also pay full price for the first (instead of being able to take a powersword to make the cost at least a bit less punishing). And using both to full effect on a single model is rather difficult . On a captain it can make sense though (got to take advantage of the BS/WS 2 after all).

 

Yea that's why I put it on the Watch Captain.

 

The fist would replace the Relic blade I currently use. 

 

Like I said earlier I've had this limited captain model sitting in the blister for a year... I finally have a use for it!

[Moostick]

Terminator Captain is definitely the only option I would consider the Meltafist on. I'm making one with some inferno pistol bits, but it's proving to be a little difficult.

 

It helps that they essentially have nothing else that is a decent melee weapon too. Its only real contender is the Relic Blade, which is mediocre for its cost already, since they don't have access to TH or PF. Power Sword/Axe/Maul seems too weak on a captain, and the chainfist is even more of a joke than our HTH.

[Drizzt79]

Terminator Captain is definitely the only option I would consider the Meltafist on. I'm making one with some inferno pistol bits, but it's proving to be a little difficult.
 
It helps that they essentially have nothing else that is a decent melee weapon too. Its only real contender is the Relic Blade, which is mediocre for its cost already, since they don't have access to TH or PF. Power Sword/Axe/Maul seems too weak on a captain, and the chainfist is even more of a joke than our HTH.

Will you do combimelta + meltafist?

[Moostick]

Probably stick with the SB and maybe put the relic bolts on him sometimes. The meltafist is a moderate increase from the RB, but the SB to combimelta increase is too high for me.

[Claws and Effect]

I'm sticking a single Cyclone termie in a kill team with 3 missile launchers and 2 storm bolter/shield guys.