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Guilliman's loss of faith in humanity


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#1
DogWelder

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Some thoughts I had while re-reading Dark Imperium the other day.

 

While Guilliman's devotion to the humans as a species seems to only have been strengthened and he still remains dedicated to the advancement of human civilization, you get the impression he is rapidly losing faith in individual humans; more specifically their ability to govern themselves.
 
This is more apparent towards the end of the book where he effectively transfers all of the major authority in the newly expanded 500 Worlds with Ultramarines or Ultramarine successors. Even Calgar seems a bit shocked at how authoritarian he seems. While humans are allowed to remain in managerial positions, all the real authority is transferred to Space Marines that answer to Guilliman first before anyone.
 
Guilliman definitely had a more tolerant attitude to humanity's flaws during 30k. He recognized sadly that things like corruption, crime, abuse of power, crush, murder, racism, rebellion etc. will always exist in human society and focused more on minimizing it by providing high living standards as well as a productive society that emphasizes discipline and duty above all. Along with strong civil authorities and a secret police (the Vigil Opertii) that kept order at all costs.
 
However, upon witnessing what humanity had done when they were handed over control of the Imperium (turning it into a theocratic hellhole that clings dogmatically to tradition and cares nothing for progress), he finally had it with humans and decided that they really were too stupid to take care of themselves anymore.
 
In a way this mirrors the Emperor's attitudes. However, the Emperor's solution is to lead humanity himself into a new stage of evolution where they would transcend their flawed selves. Guilliman's answer is to keep humanity in a state of transhuman fascism where their decisions would be carefully overseen by a class of genetically modified elites.
 
I find this quote from Gundam captures both Guilliman and the Emperor's dilemma perfectly:
 
"Revolutions are dreamt of by Intellectuals but reality forces them to take drastic measures."
 
-Amuro Ray

Edited by DogWelder, 13 May 2018 - 08:39 PM.

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#2
Isinfier

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It's an interesting reversal.

As far as I remember, one of the major grievances that the Traitor Legions had which was preyed upon by the likes of Erebus and Kor Phaeron was their resentment at seeing 'lower class' humans receiving all the prestigious positions and power, whereas the astartes were being reduced to glorified guards by the end of the Great Crusade.

It's a tad ironic, really.
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#3
QuantumCollider

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Maybe it is more of a case of not trusting anyone but himself. Guilliman saw his Primarch brother mess up and fall to Chaos, he saw entire legions of Space Marines rebel, and now sees how ten thousand years of feudal rule by relatively autonomous rulers did a number on his father's realm. 

 

Somebody has got to clean up this mess. Guess it has to be Guilliman then. Again.

 

The fact that he is using Space Marines as his ruling class/enforcers probably has more to do that he has more direct control over them than over the innumerable Imperial organisations and legions of Imperial Commanders and nobles that he would otherwise have to deal with.   


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#4
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It's an interesting reversal.

As far as I remember, one of the major grievances that the Traitor Legions had which was preyed upon by the likes of Erebus and Kor Phaeron was their resentment at seeing 'lower class' humans receiving all the prestigious positions and power, whereas the astartes were being reduced to glorified guards by the end of the Great Crusade.

It's a tad ironic, really.


It's perfectly 40k.

I believe it was an ADB book that had some CSM laughing at how the Word Bearers and Lorgar had it right.

For all the '8th is more Noblebright' people wanted to proclaim, it really isn't.

The Imperium celebrated the return of a Savior and he found them wanting, and shackled them.

Perfectly 40k.
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#5
Captain Idaho

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The Imperium is beset and is in a war rivaling the destructive power of any before it. It's essentially martial law. Guilliman is taking drastic measures.

It's really interesting because he's probably right in doing so as you can't trust most of the High Lords, but it looks tyrannical to many without foresight of a Primarch.

It's the tragedy of 40K alright!
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#6
Brother Adelard

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It was the Black Legion books. IIRC it was either when they found the crashed Templar Strike Cruiser, or when they encountered Sigismund outside the eye. (Or maybe when the personification of the Astronomical appeared? I need to read those again.) Whatever it was referenced the concept of the God Emperor, they were initially shocked it came about, but then I think they laughed.
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#7
MARK0SIAN

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It was the Black Legion books. IIRC it was either when they found the crashed Templar Strike Cruiser, or when they encountered Sigismund outside the eye. (Or maybe when the personification of the Astronomical appeared? I need to read those again.) Whatever it was referenced the concept of the God Emperor, they were initially shocked it came about, but then I think they laughed.


You are right, when they find out he is referred to as the God Emperor, Telemachon (Emperors Children) laughs uncontrollably and calls it the perfect jest. Irony has always been a big part of 40k and it seems RGs actions are just keeping up that tradition.
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#8
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Guilliman tried it "The Right Way" before. He let humans govern their worlds, he acted as a servant of humanity despite being a marvel of generic engineering, and he broke down the Legions to prevent them having too much power. Then he took a nap and when he woke up it turns out that humanity is too dumb to do things right even when he stacks the deck in their favor. So, now he'll save humanity, but he'll do what he needs to to do it. If that means establishing control, then that's what humanity needs...
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#9
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Guilliman is effectively caesar or Augustus resurrected in the dying years of Roman Empire... What would they have done? 



#10
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Lol Guilliman accomplished far more than Solar Macharius, and has accomplished even more since his return.
Also, he's never been badly beaten by any of his brothers, despite coming to blows with a lot of them. He did fight Angron AND Lorgar at the same time. He's also made a mockery of some pretty powerful Daemons.

As for the codex Astartes, it was a guideline written by a strategic mind far greater than any other. Also, it was not his intention for it to be treated as a stagnant, religious text - that was the choice of the less able minded following the thousands of years since the Heresy.

Also, stop being a fanboy over the traitors. They were all selfish failures who chose servitude to Chaos Gods over service to the Imperium, and have achieved nothing in 10 millennia.

Also, it's not really on topic.


Guilliman has not lost faith. If anything he has more resolve. He recognises that humanity continues to fight even though the current defenders of the Imperium have never known hope, progress or enlightenment.
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#11
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Fun fact, the Codex Astartes doesn't remove peoples ability to improvise, everything we've been shown about it has it more along the lines of "the Art of War". It doesn't state "if X happens, do Y", but rather provides insight and examples of what has been done in similar situations in the past. The only thing that shows it as restrictive is the Uriel Ventris series, I believe, but even that contradicts itself as to what the Codex says to be done (one book says 'ignore everything in favour of the mission', another says 'ignore the mission if it means doing damage to the enemy', all so Ventris can play special snowflake and go against it to save the day). The Chapters who are noted to not be able to improvise are specifically noted to be those who follow it dogmatically, in other words not as it was intended to be. The Raven Guard are known to be one of the most "inventive" Chapters in existence, and even they still follow the Codex, they just favour the sections on stealth more highly, and try to avoid getting into sieges, etc.

 

He may have had help from his brothers, but even then, it wasn't too much. The Blood Angels, White Scars and Imperial Fists got mauled during the Siege, the Fists got further mauled during the Iron Cage, the Space Wolves were never numerous to begin with, the Dark Angels lost most of their number during the event that totally never happened and anybody who says otherwise can have a nice chat to this Chaplain. Lastly, the Iron Hands, Salamanders, and Raven Guard were still recovering from the Massacre, so couldn't provide much support either. So yeah, the bulk of the fighting during the Scouring was done by the Ultramarines and their successors.

 

As for the value of the Imperial leadership, what you say is true. They had disagreements. They've also stood strong as an empire for 10,000 years, something that hasn't been done in history. Every empire has weak moments, has bad leaders, coups and strife. It's because they're led by humans. Hence why Guilliman has now decided to play at being Augustus to the Roman Senate, and take over command. 

 

...Plus, War of the Beast really was just pulled out of the asses of GW, such a massive event, literally changing the galaxy, which we mysteriously never heard of before their 12-book series, trying to out-shock in each book as to why people should keep reading.


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#12
Slan Drakkos

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Lol Guilliman accomplished far more than Solar Macharius, and has accomplished even more since his return.
Also, he's never been badly beaten by any of his brothers, despite coming to blows with a lot of them. He did fight Angron AND Lorgar at the same time. He's also made a mockery of some pretty powerful Daemons.
As for the codex Astartes, it was a guideline written by a strategic mind far greater than any other. Also, it was not his intention for it to be treated as a stagnant, religious text - that was the choice of the less able minded following the thousands of years since the Heresy.
Also, stop being a fanboy over the traitors. They were all selfish failures who chose servitude to Chaos Gods over service to the Imperium, and have achieved nothing in 10 millennia.
Also, it's not really on topic.
Guilliman has not lost faith. If anything he has more resolve. He recognises that humanity continues to fight even though the current defenders of the Imperium have never known hope, progress or enlightenment.

I never said that Macharius accomplished more, I said that Guilliman didn't take back anywhere near everything that was lost in the heresy. This is made rather obvious by the thousand worlds that macharius had to take back. Also, lol, he fought Angron and Lorgar separately, managed to only land one solid hit on Lorgar and vice versa, tried to fight angron, stepped on the skull of one of angrons friends, got his teeth kicked in, and had to be carried away by his sons. Also, double lol, he landed one hit on fulgrim after giving a lot of ground and getting smacked around, got his helmet knocked off, began choking on the very smell of fulgrim, got his throat slashed, and had to get dragged away while his kids died horribly to buy him time to escape. If that isn't a horrible loss, I don't know what is. Moreover, it was an entirely unnecessary loss since Fulgrim was just fine with letting him go after giving his kids a bloody nose.

LOL, I'm not fanboying over the traitors. I'm just noting that guilliman didn't really fix any problems. It's possible to like a character while fully acknowledging their failings.

On topic, of course he's lost a level of faith in humanity. The guy saw that things were sliding downhill before he had to take a nap and then woke up with chanting about how the some of god had now come back to life in their darkest hour. It's like a complete reverse of how Captain America woke up after WWII.
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#13
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This topic is about Guilliman's faith in humanity, not a Primarch competition. Please stay on topic. Thanks.


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#14
QuantumCollider

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Perhaps a better question would be why did Guilliman originally organize the Imperium in such a fashion that baseline humans would effectively rule and not Space Marines or Primarchs?

 

Was it really that he had faith in humanity, or did he simply have no faith in his brothers? Did he wanted to break their (and his own) powerbase? The imperium is governed by a very rudimentary form of checks and balances (you have supreme rule over you planet/chapter/regiment/battlefleet, but almost no power beyond that, yet all depend on one another) that keeps the local rulers in line, but the Primarchs had the strength, intelligence and will to unite whole chunks of the Imperium beneath their banner. By reducing the powerbase of the remaining Primarchs none would be able to threaten the whole Imperium again.

 

But now he is in a situation where there are no other equally powerful beings that can split the Imperium apart (the Daemon Primarchs are no longer part of it, obviously), so he can unite, centralize and streamline government of the Imperium safe in the knowledge that no rival or equal could ever fall and draw large parts of the Imperium with him. Of course, if Guilliman would then fall, there is little to save the Imperium from falling with him.  


Edited by QuantumCollider, 14 May 2018 - 09:07 AM.

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#15
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I mean, when you come back from the worlds longest power nap and find out Mankind has quite literally ignored your fathers wishes to not worship him as a god, an entire organisation built on that very wrong path is now the De Facto power within the Imperium while the mechanicus, a sect meant to progress tech and be of logic and science has also decided to fall to religious Dogma and thus for the last 10k years done nothing to further human lives in any meaningful way other than hunting old tech that they could of spent their time ether re-creating or making their own version of instead of falling in a technological regressed state they are in now (as often tech back in 30k was said to be more advanced along with many planets still able to produce the more rare items we have today) along with the fact that there is now the massive warp tear across the imperium coupled with having to look upon what was Horus' legion just as you wake up as your first sight is enough for any primarch to say "Right, Science forsake this lot. All of you, hand in your ID for being leaders because I got this" which is what he did if I remember, he did just walk in the palace on terra and just kick out high lords left and right after talking with his father about how much of a joke the imperium is that not even the laughing god could laugh at how bad it is.

 

Gulliman is quite rightly disappointed. However I think the main reason for putting astartes in power is actually due to their beliefs being closer to the intended ideals of the Emperor as they do not worship him as a god but an incredible man (and that hasn't changed) so he is removing those who are incorrectly educated in place of those who have beliefs closer in line with what was intended. Gulliman is a grand strategist and knows that while he can boot more obscure members of the Imperium (ironically the more high power individuals) however to correct the imperium as a whole he has to play a long game and thus needs to have leaders who can live longer lives and have greater mental fortitude and drive towards a common goals instead of their own. The Astartes fit this bill perfectly however it will ultimately be his greatest failing as he has forgotten that even astartes are human, super-human yes but still human as if the astartes became voidless emotionless warriors they would lose their most powerful tool, their indomitable spirit that is common to them ("And they shall know no fear").

 

From this failing we will see a Horus Heresy Mark 2, Electric Boogaloo, in the form of Astartes who have been given power similar to what his brothers once held and it will destroy Gulliman not physically, not in the manner we would expect but mentally destroy the one Primarch known for his Mental power in terms of tactical ability yet, he failed to account for human error that is so powerful not even the Emperor can prevent which is what the Chaos Gods prey upon.

 

If they were to only embrace the most powerful aspect of humanity they could win as has been proven before: Human power of Belief. Humanity believes it can survive so thus it will, it will survive as so long as they belief they will they can. However the Emperor wished to snuff out that power and believe humans were powerful by themselves but no, no race is all powerful enough to overcome their own weakness unless they belief they can which only the orks belief (hence their success. And no they don't belief their infighting is a weakness as it to them helps keep them strong).

 

Gulliman thinks he can but doesn't belief he can, belief is something the Emperor didn't give him and it will be his downfall to not take advantage of that trait. 


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#16
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Yeah it's almost literally a parent leaving the house for a week to the teenager just to come back and seeing it on fire. Nobody can blame Guilliman for taking control of the whole thing while there's still something left to save. ^^


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#17
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I don't necessarily see it as a loss in faith in Humanity.

 

But a loss in faith towards the Imperium.

 

The imperium failed, and became hyper religious, Robby is, imho, only attempting to save the Imperium right now because the imperium is the only way for humanity to survive.

 

Lets see what happens in 500 years when Robby G has rebuilt the Ultramar 500 shield worlds and lay the ground work for the imperium Secundus again.

 

If the Lion shows up, will Robby just drop the reigns of the imperium into another primarchs hands and go to his own system and rebuild it to be the image of what he saw the imperium could be?

 

a break away progressive imperium?


Edited by Triszin, 14 May 2018 - 01:45 PM.

banana


#18
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Never change ishagu, at least your grasp on the setting can be trusted to never waver.

(Angron would have taken his head, no question.)

In the end for all Robs Scouring victory, and he did do much I don't know why ppl are down playing it, the Imperium proved that humanity could take that success and turn it on its head.

All the imperium could claim in the 40k sense is 'well we are still here'.
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#19
Triszin

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The Lion couldn't lead the Imperium in the same way Rob could. For instance, he couldn't read people well enough to know whether to trust them or not, just look at how he had to rely upon Nemiel's judgment in Fallen Angels and had the Aechmagos pull the wool over his eyes as a reault.. He was a brilliant tactician, but not a leader of men. That was Luther's role.

Yes, but remember that was 30k. Primarchs have changed in the past 10k years.

 

I only expect Robby to be similar to his 30k self because he was frozen in stasis. everyone else is up for change


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#20
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The Lion is also in stasis in the Rock though, tended over by the Watchers.

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#21
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The Lion is also in stasis in the Rock though, tended over by the Watchers.

I thought he was asleep. I didn't know he was in stasis.


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#22
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Indeed, I thought he was sleeping, not Stasis. 


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#23
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Just bring the Angel back, Imperium's problems are solved!

 

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#24
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Never change ishagu, at least your grasp on the setting can be trusted to never waver.

(Angron would have taken his head, no question.)

In the end for all Robs Scouring victory, and he did do much I don't know why ppl are down playing it, the Imperium proved that humanity could take that success and turn it on its head.

All the imperium could claim in the 40k sense is 'well we are still here'.


I can't ignore the hyperbolic slander from some 40k "enthusiasts" lol

As for the Lion, he's a sterling military mind but not a politician. He'd struggle to keep even parts of the Imperium in line.
Guilliman is better suited to command but he's also too pragmatic which can be a weakness.
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#25
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Indeed, I thought he was sleeping, not Stasis.


I thought that sounded a bit off, but I wanted a source to be sure and that's what it says here: http://warhammer40k..../Lion_El'Jonson

Sleep, stasis, whatever. The point is he ain't changed one iota in ten thousand years and is still the sultry Predator he was then.

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