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Guilliman's loss of faith in humanity


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#26
Triszin

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Indeed, I thought he was sleeping, not Stasis.


I thought that sounded a bit off, but I wanted a source to be sure and that's what it says here: http://warhammer40k..../Lion_El'Jonson

Sleep, stasis, whatever. The point is he ain't changed one iota in ten thousand years and is still the sultry Predator he was then.

 

there is a difference though. Even sleeping beings such as primarchs wouldn't necessarily be static. He could be floating around in the empyrean talking with emps and his dead brothers.

 

I'm not saying he is going to be different from hiself in 30k, just don't anchor your self to that point, he could be different he could not.

 

If something is in stasis, can it still be in contact with the warp?


banana


#27
sfPanzer

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Agreed, just because he's sleeping it doesn't mean doesn't notice what's going on around him ... or in the galaxy. Primarchs are very different from normal humans obviously and a 10k year sleep is no ordinary sleep either. ^^


Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

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#28
DogWelder

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I mean, when you come back from the worlds longest power nap and find out Mankind has quite literally ignored your fathers wishes to not worship him as a god, an entire organisation built on that very wrong path is now the De Facto power within the Imperium while the mechanicus, a sect meant to progress tech and be of logic and science has also decided to fall to religious Dogma and thus for the last 10k years done nothing to further human lives in any meaningful way other than hunting old tech that they could of spent their time ether re-creating or making their own version of instead of falling in a technological regressed state they are in now (as often tech back in 30k was said to be more advanced along with many planets still able to produce the more rare items we have today) along with the fact that there is now the massive warp tear across the imperium coupled with having to look upon what was Horus' legion just as you wake up as your first sight is enough for any primarch to say "Right, Science forsake this lot. All of you, hand in your ID for being leaders because I got this" which is what he did if I remember, he did just walk in the palace on terra and just kick out high lords left and right after talking with his father about how much of a joke the imperium is that not even the laughing god could laugh at how bad it is.

 

Gulliman is quite rightly disappointed. However I think the main reason for putting astartes in power is actually due to their beliefs being closer to the intended ideals of the Emperor as they do not worship him as a god but an incredible man (and that hasn't changed) so he is removing those who are incorrectly educated in place of those who have beliefs closer in line with what was intended. Gulliman is a grand strategist and knows that while he can boot more obscure members of the Imperium (ironically the more high power individuals) however to correct the imperium as a whole he has to play a long game and thus needs to have leaders who can live longer lives and have greater mental fortitude and drive towards a common goals instead of their own. The Astartes fit this bill perfectly however it will ultimately be his greatest failing as he has forgotten that even astartes are human, super-human yes but still human as if the astartes became voidless emotionless warriors they would lose their most powerful tool, their indomitable spirit that is common to them ("And they shall know no fear").

 

From this failing we will see a Horus Heresy Mark 2, Electric Boogaloo, in the form of Astartes who have been given power similar to what his brothers once held and it will destroy Gulliman not physically, not in the manner we would expect but mentally destroy the one Primarch known for his Mental power in terms of tactical ability yet, he failed to account for human error that is so powerful not even the Emperor can prevent which is what the Chaos Gods prey upon.

 

If they were to only embrace the most powerful aspect of humanity they could win as has been proven before: Human power of Belief. Humanity believes it can survive so thus it will, it will survive as so long as they belief they will they can. However the Emperor wished to snuff out that power and believe humans were powerful by themselves but no, no race is all powerful enough to overcome their own weakness unless they belief they can which only the orks belief (hence their success. And no they don't belief their infighting is a weakness as it to them helps keep them strong).

 

Gulliman thinks he can but doesn't belief he can, belief is something the Emperor didn't give him and it will be his downfall to not take advantage of that trait. 

 

He's being rather like Lelouche then don't you think? biggrin.png


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#29
Ishagu

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Agreed, just because he's sleeping it doesn't mean doesn't notice what's going on around him ... or in the galaxy. Primarchs are very different from normal humans obviously and a 10k year sleep is no ordinary sleep either. ^^

 

I thought he was in a coma. He's probably completely oblivious, it might even be dreamless. 

Hoping he returns sooner rather than later!


-~Ishagu~-


#30
deathspectersgt7

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Humans are a fickled punch . They want to believe in something greater than them selves . And Some of the Primarchs put their faith into the Imperium but look what happened . Rob should look at himself and his father before using the weak human crutch. For all the problems the Imperium is still standing .


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#31
Jarl Caldersson

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Never change ishagu, at least your grasp on the setting can be trusted to never waver.
(Angron would have taken his head, no question.)
In the end for all Robs Scouring victory, and he did do much I don't know why ppl are down playing it, the Imperium proved that humanity could take that success and turn it on its head.
All the imperium could claim in the 40k sense is 'well we are still here'.


I can't ignore the hyperbolic slander from some 40k "enthusiasts" lol
As for the Lion, he's a sterling military mind but not a politician. He'd struggle to keep even parts of the Imperium in line.
Guilliman is better suited to command but he's also too pragmatic which can be a weakness.

Guilliman also can't understand why not every world isnt just a version of Ultramar. Something that also makes lose faith in humanity, why they all hadn't just copied his planet. He doesn't understand other cultures or how people want to keep their culture even if it isn't the best thing for them. So when he looks around at his brothers worlds and others he simply wonders "why haven't you changed this in the last 10k year, and it probably causes him despair to see it not change.

I love living in severly snowy climates, yes I know the life is hard and the economy is never going to be like new York. However I like those hardships to be honest. I love the fact it can be challenging, and those Californians or Texans that come visit sit there saying how it's so cold when it hasn't even hit Sub-Zero Fahrenheit/ -20 Celsius. To a outsider they would say "why not just move to x place", and think myself dumb for staying. I imagine that is how the Roboute thinks.
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"It has been said that the Lord of Ultramar sees little else besides the primacy of his own culture. For him, all worlds might as well be Ultramar." - Diplomat Pyke

"I would have expected that suggestion from Ferrus, or maybe even Horus, but never Russ. He has a hidden depth that one" - Primarch Fulgrim

"The Wolves were the Emperor’s red right hand–monsters in their own way–but how easy it was to only see the savage, to fear the axe and miss the subtle knife." - Prmomus


#32
Scribe

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Thats actually a very astute point. I'm on the West Coast of Canada, Vancouver Island to be slightly more detailed, and I would rather die, quite literally than move to a place like Vancouver or a 'real city' like New York, or LA.

 

Thats a point I've not seen made regarding Rob and his 'vision'.


"We will never be free..."

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#33
QuantumCollider

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Thats actually a very astute point. I'm on the West Coast of Canada, Vancouver Island to be slightly more detailed, and I would rather die, quite literally than move to a place like Vancouver or a 'real city' like New York, or LA.

 

Thats a point I've not seen made regarding Rob and his 'vision'.

 

Reminds me of a quote by Lawrence of Arabia: "Let them have their own imperfect system instead of our perfect system."


"...Though every basic Ork (see ref. 'boy') has an animalistic cunning on par with most apex level predators, generally even alpha-level specimens (see ref. 'Warboss') have sub-par intelligence at best. When confronted with simple calculus problems Orks typically  respond with both confusion and agression (see ref. specimen 89230-Kappa. ADDENDUM: Tech-Adept Haagen is expected to make a 87% recovery, with most of his limbs eligible for reattachment. Removal of the abacus from the biological parts of his digestive system has been deemed impractical)." 

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#34
Zeller

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Robby restructured the Imperium. It was left in the control of those who rightly should rule it - humanity. Now he comes back and his initial solution is viewed as the problem. Everything that exists now is a direct result of the blueprint he laid down. He knew what humans were like. What I'm trying to say is, he should only be upset at himself. From OP's synopsis it sounds like the typical 40k irony is slowly coming to light. Guilliman and Lorgar are two sides of the same coin. This isn't new in my opinion. Lorgar saw the need in humans to belong, to have purpose, to fill that spiritual void with some kind of common thread that would unite and strengthen the species. Of course, his solution was the Primordial Truth, which, while valid...was more self destructive than anything else. An enlightened species that knew science, knew psykers, knew the Warp, and knew the Gods would have a stronger cultural core to tackle any challenge, whether it was from within the Empire or self, or without. Guilliman, by taking the reigns, putting astartes in leadership positions, and remolding the flawed Imperium he helped create is not so different from a Traitor primarch in my book. Sure, he knew the Emperor's vision, in part. It strikes me as...a mark of hubris to believe even a Primarch could fully comprehend the Emperor's complete vision, knowledge, and understanding of the universe. 

 

Rambling done. Whatever the hell I just wrote..


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Personally, I'd say it makes a lot more sense to keep putting them on the right. Anyone who questions your decision is a Communist.

QUOTE (Ashdown @ Aug 17 2010, 07:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
 
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#35
Jarl Caldersson

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Thats actually a very astute point. I'm on the West Coast of Canada, Vancouver Island to be slightly more detailed, and I would rather die, quite literally than move to a place like Vancouver or a 'real city' like New York, or LA.
 
Thats a point I've not seen made regarding Rob and his 'vision'.


I would like to take credit but the original point came out in the Fulgrim novel ( see my signature). However I thought pretty hard on it, because it is one of the key reasons why I disliked Roboute but didn't realize.

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"It has been said that the Lord of Ultramar sees little else besides the primacy of his own culture. For him, all worlds might as well be Ultramar." - Diplomat Pyke

"I would have expected that suggestion from Ferrus, or maybe even Horus, but never Russ. He has a hidden depth that one" - Primarch Fulgrim

"The Wolves were the Emperor’s red right hand–monsters in their own way–but how easy it was to only see the savage, to fear the axe and miss the subtle knife." - Prmomus


#36
Lord_Caerolion

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It's basically a reversal of his actions after the Heresy. Then, he tried to do his best to decentralise power, splitting the Legions and Imperial Army, creating the Imperial Senate, etc. Now he's declared Dante the warden of the "Northern Imperium", taken central command of the "Southern Imperium", placed Astartes under his direct command in control of Ultramar, and so on.


"And then Horus landed on the Moon, which looked like the moon. Funny that, isn't it?"


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#37
Kinstryfe

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Robby restructured the Imperium. It was left in the control of those who rightly should rule it - humanity. Now he comes back and his initial solution is viewed as the problem. Everything that exists now is a direct result of the blueprint he laid down. He knew what humans were like. What I'm trying to say is, he should only be upset at himself. From OP's synopsis it sounds like the typical 40k irony is slowly coming to light. Guilliman and Lorgar are two sides of the same coin. This isn't new in my opinion. Lorgar saw the need in humans to belong, to have purpose, to fill that spiritual void with some kind of common thread that would unite and strengthen the species. Of course, his solution was the Primordial Truth, which, while valid...was more self destructive than anything else. An enlightened species that knew science, knew psykers, knew the Warp, and knew the Gods would have a stronger cultural core to tackle any challenge, whether it was from within the Empire or self, or without. Guilliman, by taking the reigns, putting astartes in leadership positions, and remolding the flawed Imperium he helped create is not so different from a Traitor primarch in my book. Sure, he knew the Emperor's vision, in part. It strikes me as...a mark of hubris to believe even a Primarch could fully comprehend the Emperor's complete vision, knowledge, and understanding of the universe. 
 
Rambling done. Whatever the hell I just wrote..


I don't think Lorgar thought humans had a need to belong or have purpose. He thought that any society should be based on faith, which is anathema to what the Emperor wanted. A more accurate comparison is that Guilliman put everything into place for humanity to rule their own secular empire, and humanity turned around and decided Lorgar was mostly right. So there's definitely an argument to be made that The Emperor messed up with his whole Imperial Truth thing, but it's not fair to blame Guilliman for that. Guilliman setup things right; no religion, aggressive tech exploration, no one person able to challenge the throne; then humans messed it all up by deciding to embrace religion, stagnate tech, and...ok, breaking up Legions is squarely on Guilliman. But the rest was Big E's mistake.

So of course Guilliman wakes up, looks at the mess regular humans have made of things, does an epic facepalm, and tries to figure out how to fix this without going all Horus on everyone.
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#38
Brother Tyler

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I've gone through and hidden all of the off topic posts. The only ones that had such material in them that I didn't remove were those that had some on topic material in them.

Any subsequent replies that have off topic material will be removed, even if they have on topic material in them.

This topic is about Roboute Guilliman's reaction to the state of the Imperium/Mankind after coming out of stasis. Let's stay on topic, please.

=][=
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#39
Brother Adelard

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Perhaps he's planning something more revolutionary?

 

Consider this, the Imperium as the Emperor intended, and the one Roboute set in train arguably did not feature the Emperor as a deity. One of the biggest things holding the Imperium back is the fact it is led by the Ecclesiarchy. Perhaps he's decentralising power away from the Ecclesiarchy to remove its influence?


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#40
Lord_Caerolion

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I think Guilliman knows that the best way to get himself overthrown is to delegitimise the Ecclesiarchy. If that is his goal, it's a long, long way off. Everything we've seen so far is that it's Guilliman is removing those that are putting self-gain above the Imperium. Down the line he might get brave enough to try floating the idea of "separation of church and state", but let's face it, there are many, many planets in the Imperium that are only Imperial in that they worship the Emperor as a god. The Indomitus Crusade has too much to focus on to worry about reeducation campaigns on every little Hive World, let alone the insurrections that would occur where the Ecclesiarchy has the balance of power.


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"And then Horus landed on the Moon, which looked like the moon. Funny that, isn't it?"


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#41
sfPanzer

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We already know that Guilliman acknowledges the use of the Ecclesiarchy. He was thinking about banning them initially for obvious reasons but decided against it.
As backwards as the imperium is in 40k compared to what it used to be, they still managed to survive and not to a small part thanks to their religious believes that opposes all those chaos cults that didn't exist back then.
Also plans change and with all the emperor worshipping now there's not a small chance of him eventually reaching godhood where he could do things he couldn't do before. Is it what the Emperor had planned back then? No, definitely not. However after 10k years and everything that happened it's maybe one of the best options left he can see to bring humanity on the right path of survival. Even the Emperor has to adjust when things don't go as planned and his original plan wasn't one with a very high chance of success to begin with.

So back to Guilliman. We don't really know much about what the Emperor told him to do. We just know that the Emperor isn't what he used to be anymore, Guilliman being extremely disappointed of what the Imperium has become, but he doesn't stop the people from worshipping the Emperor (he only tells people his opinion when they're alone-ish) nor does he disband the Ecclesiarchy or stops the Emperor from devouring the psychic power (and potentially their souls?) of thousands of innocent people.
His loss of faith could be not just because of what the Imperium has become but also because of him knowing what it'll become in the future ... if the Emperor actually told him as much. He's not known to talk about his plans that much after all.

Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

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#42
Lord Rust

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Like father like son


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#43
QuantumCollider

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Like father like son

Considering what the father's policies caused, this is rather ominous.


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"...Though every basic Ork (see ref. 'boy') has an animalistic cunning on par with most apex level predators, generally even alpha-level specimens (see ref. 'Warboss') have sub-par intelligence at best. When confronted with simple calculus problems Orks typically  respond with both confusion and agression (see ref. specimen 89230-Kappa. ADDENDUM: Tech-Adept Haagen is expected to make a 87% recovery, with most of his limbs eligible for reattachment. Removal of the abacus from the biological parts of his digestive system has been deemed impractical)." 

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#44
Lord Rust

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Like father like son

Considering what the father's policies caused, this is rather ominous.

 

Grimdark

Just the way I like it


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#45
SickSix

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Also, stop being a fanboy over the traitors. They were all selfish failures who chose servitude to Chaos Gods over service to the Imperium, and have achieved nothing in 10 millennia.


Fall of Cadia states otherwise. Abbadon was playing the long game. And he won. Cadia has fallen and the Eye of Terror grows.

#46
Sete

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Abbadon was playing the long retcon lolol
I wonder if we will see all Daemon primarchs ha defeated by guilliman before other loyalists appear. 🙃

Edited by Sete, 05 June 2018 - 08:56 PM.


#47
sfPanzer

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40k is an eternal circle of minor and major retcons. No need to get riled up about the Black Crusade one. At least he doesn't look like a total loser anymore. ^^


Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

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#48
allfatherstudios

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Some thoughts I had while re-reading Dark Imperium the other day.
 
While Guilliman's devotion to the humans as a species seems to only have been strengthened and he still remains dedicated to the advancement of human civilization, you get the impression he is rapidly losing faith in individual humans; more specifically their ability to govern themselves.
 
This is more apparent towards the end of the book where he effectively transfers all of the major authority in the newly expanded 500 Worlds with Ultramarines or Ultramarine successors. Even Calgar seems a bit shocked at how authoritarian he seems. While humans are allowed to remain in managerial positions, all the real authority is transferred to Space Marines that answer to Guilliman first before anyone.
 
Guilliman definitely had a more tolerant attitude to humanity's flaws during 30k. He recognized sadly that things like corruption, crime, abuse of power, crush, murder, racism, rebellion etc. will always exist in human society and focused more on minimizing it by providing high living standards as well as a productive society that emphasizes discipline and duty above all. Along with strong civil authorities and a secret police (the Vigil Opertii) that kept order at all costs.
 
However, upon witnessing what humanity had done when they were handed over control of the Imperium (turning it into a theocratic hellhole that clings dogmatically to tradition and cares nothing for progress), he finally had it with humans and decided that they really were too stupid to take care of themselves anymore.
 
In a way this mirrors the Emperor's attitudes. However, the Emperor's solution is to lead humanity himself into a new stage of evolution where they would transcend their flawed selves. Guilliman's answer is to keep humanity in a state of transhuman fascism where their decisions would be carefully overseen by a class of genetically modified elites.
 
I find this quote from Gundam captures both Guilliman and the Emperor's dilemma perfectly:
 
"Revolutions are dreamt of by Intellectuals but reality forces them to take drastic measures."
 
-Amuro Ray

. He will fall to chaos and become the new Horus.
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