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Question on Deep Strike/Gate


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38 replies to this topic

#26
BluejayJunior

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It's definitely in a little bit of a gray area, but I would say it can be done.

You have to deepstrike into your deployment zone on turn 1. Then you have to successfully cast a psychic power to move a single unit across the board. There is the possibility that you fail or it gets denied. And it's only one unit, so it's not like your whole army is suddenly in your opponents face on turn 1 again, which is part of the purpose of the Beta Rule.

It may seem like a cheesy way to get around the rule, but we've been told things like Gate still work on turn 1.

I think the biggest counter to my argument is whether using Gate counts as moving the model. If it does count as moving, then it can't be done because the deepstriking unit cannot move after coming on the board.

I would suggest discussing it with your opponent before any games and see what they say. That will avoid any gotcha moments for your opponent and any arguments mid-game when it counts. 


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#27
jeffersonian000

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It’s still a permissive rule set. Gate gives permission outside of normal rules, just like the other exceptions.

SJ
“And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.”
- Revelations 9:9

#28
Ninjoe42

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Nah, that really sounds like trying to force something. The intend is clear (no) and raw could go both ways but tends towards no.

You guys are weird. You’re forcing something absurd where there is no reason to.
In your movement phase you ds. In your dz if it’s the first turn. Then you’re not allowed to move or advance but you have every right to use psychic power. So you CAST gate and redeploy. I don’t see anything that forbid it.
I concur. The rulings are clear on this, each situation is separate and covered by different rulings.

SJ

I concur. Everyone but us is already accepting it as truth anyways.

#29
TauFish

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Don’t think it is a valid thing to do.



In the Rulebook FAQ 1.2, under Reinforcements, there is the Following:



Q: Can such a unit move or Advance for any other reason

e.g. because of an ability such as The Swarmlord’s Hive

Commander ability, or because of a psychic power such as

Warptime from the Dark Hereticus discipline, or because

of a Stratagem like Metabolic Overdrive from Codex:

Tyranids, etc.?

A: No.



So psychic powers won’t let you move a unit that has entered by deep strike. So can’t Gate something from deep strike in any turn.

The GoI ‘exception’ should only apply to units already on board.

Edited by TauFish, 22 May 2018 - 03:43 PM.


#30
STTAB

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Would like an answer on this;

I would be interested in deepstriking interceptors in my own deployment zone, then shunting them in the same movement phase.

I'm doubtful.

I'll jump onto the Facebook page and ask as they do occasionally give a clear answer.

#31
TauFish

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Curious about this one. I would think not possible due to rules wording.
Shunt happens at end of movement
DS happens at end of movement

If you DS a unit, then it’s movement phase is complete, so you can’t shunt

???

#32
jeffersonian000

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Deep Strike ends a unit’s movement, and Shunt is a movement ability. I’d say that you cannot Shunt a unit that just arrived by Deep Strike on the same turn.

Conversely, I see no reason why you cannot Gate a unit that just arrived by Deep Strike. Gate occurs in a different phase of the game, and is a move that occurs as an exception to normal movement rules, unlike Shunt which replaces a normal movement.

SJ

Edited by jeffersonian000, 22 May 2018 - 08:59 PM.

“And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.”
- Revelations 9:9

#33
TauFish

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Deep Strike ends a unit’s movement, and Shunt is a movement ability. I’d say that you cannot Shunt a unit that just arrived by Deep Strike on the same turn.

Conversely, I see no reason why you cannot Gate a unit that just arrived by Deep Strike. Gate occurs in a different phase of the game, and is a move that occurs as an exception to normal movement rules, unlike Shunt which replaces a normal movement.

SJ


It’s the 1.2 Rules FAQ, it stares that can’t move again with psychic power for any reinforcements


Also, I think it means that you can’t gate something that gets out of a transport

Edited by TauFish, 22 May 2018 - 09:22 PM.


#34
Corvus Fortis

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The question was about "move or advance". "Move" can refere to the "Movement" action, that units perform in Movement Phase, not just any klnd of displacement. All the examples in question are also about a stratagems and psychic powers that force unit to make exactly this "Movement" action. This makes me think, that intention was to nerf exactly this kind of movement - way more powerful and breaking the concept of 9" restriction. 

 

So just the word "move" must be clarified, but looks like it was not inteded to interact with GoI. 



#35
TauFish

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Gate is taken as movement I think, otherwise heavy weapons would not get the -1 BS after gate

FAQ needed for the FAQ....

Edited by TauFish, 22 May 2018 - 09:46 PM.


#36
Diagramdude

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Gate is not a movement, it is a remove from battlefield and set-up again. Completely unrelated and mechanically separate from Warptime or Metabolic Overdrive.

 

Also VERY worth noting buried in the magenta update of the Main Rulebook FAQ is that if a unit is removed from the battlefield and re-setup again by various abilities, such as Gate of Infinity, any persistent effects on that unit are removed. So if you use Heed the Prognosticars on a GMNDK and then Gate him, he loses Heed. If you cast Sanctuary before Gate, it loses Sanctuary. 

 

If the opponent debuffs you somehow with a -1 to hit or something, you Gate that debuffed unit and the debuff is removed.

 

The exact wording is for "Stratagems" that do so, so there is very narrow room to argue that it doesn't apply to Gate, but the mechanic is the exact same so I think it is fair to assume that this debuff affect also applies to Gate.

The exact wording: 

"Q: If you use a Stratagem to remove a model from the battlefield and set it up again, does the model retain any persistent effects (for example, a bonus to one of its characteristics as a result of an ability)?

A: No."



#37
Capt. Mytre

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Gate is not a movement, it is a remove from battlefield and set-up again. Completely unrelated and mechanically separate from Warptime or Metabolic Overdrive.

 

Also VERY worth noting buried in the magenta update of the Main Rulebook FAQ is that if a unit is removed from the battlefield and re-setup again by various abilities, such as Gate of Infinity, any persistent effects on that unit are removed. So if you use Heed the Prognosticars on a GMNDK and then Gate him, he loses Heed. If you cast Sanctuary before Gate, it loses Sanctuary. 

 

If the opponent debuffs you somehow with a -1 to hit or something, you Gate that debuffed unit and the debuff is removed.

 

The exact wording is for "Stratagems" that do so, so there is very narrow room to argue that it doesn't apply to Gate, but the mechanic is the exact same so I think it is fair to assume that this debuff affect also applies to Gate.

The exact wording: 

"Q: If you use a Stratagem to remove a model from the battlefield and set it up again, does the model retain any persistent effects (for example, a bonus to one of its characteristics as a result of an ability)?

A: No."

 

It's for Stratagems only. Just like the FAQ for considering deepstriking units to have moved only applies for shooting, this only applies to stratagems. If it extended to anything else, it would say it does. That's how you write good rules, you don't have the players infer what else it could potentially apply to, it leads to players making very different interpretations of the rules. Good rules have zero room for discussions, they should be clear cut (yes, I know we're talking about GW here).

 

If it wasn't this way, that would be basically like saying "Don't play the rules as written, play them as you think they are intended to be played".


Edited by Capt. Mytre, 23 May 2018 - 01:27 AM.


#38
Danarc

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For me it's quite clear. 

DS happens at the end of movement phase so it isn't possible shunting anything after DS. Moreover in the faq explanation (https://www.facebook...5662631/?type=3) it is written that the beta doesn't apply to units that are set up on the battlefield during deployment. 

About gate, the issue is different. you can gate units that are deployed on the field, but what about for units that are DS? I don't see anything that forbid to do it. Did I lost something?



#39
Soder

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Gate is not a movement, it is a remove from battlefield and set-up again. Completely unrelated and mechanically separate from Warptime or Metabolic Overdrive.

Also VERY worth noting buried in the magenta update of the Main Rulebook FAQ is that if a unit is removed from the battlefield and re-setup again by various abilities, such as Gate of Infinity, any persistent effects on that unit are removed. So if you use Heed the Prognosticars on a GMNDK and then Gate him, he loses Heed. If you cast Sanctuary before Gate, it loses Sanctuary.

If the opponent debuffs you somehow with a -1 to hit or something, you Gate that debuffed unit and the debuff is removed.

The exact wording is for "Stratagems" that do so, so there is very narrow room to argue that it doesn't apply to Gate, but the mechanic is the exact same so I think it is fair to assume that this debuff affect also applies to Gate.

The exact wording:
"Q: If you use a Stratagem to remove a model from the battlefield and set it up again, does the model retain any persistent effects (for example, a bonus to one of its characteristics as a result of an ability)?
A: No."

I’ve sent feedback about this, especially if removing a unit from the battlefield also removes any enemy debuffs placed on said unit as well, seems to be a major oversight regarding this ruling..

Edited by Soder, 28 May 2018 - 03:25 AM.





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