Is it possible to have a separate imperial knights forum?

[Excessus]

There haven't been a chaos knight codex before, and everybody will be welcome down to discuss it when it arrives...

[Jolemai]

With all due respect folks, having only recently announced the new structure any Chaos Knights discussion in the Ad Mech and Imperial Knights forum will be split and moved over by the moderation team when time permits and where relevant.

 

Yes there will be some overlap but it's no different than, say, a Predator being discussed across umpteen fora.

 

The forum structure is constantly under review and we do take your concerns on board - once the Codex is released and we see how things are going (i.e traffic), we will change it in due course. For now, please discuss Imperial and Chaos Knights in their respective fora.

[Gederas]

And they're not in the chaos part because...why exactly?

Both predate the Chaos Knights codex by a long time. And as Stray said:

 

The Renegades and Heretics forum is very, very dead in terms of traffic.

[Stray]

And they're not in the chaos part because...why exactly?

 

Because, as we explained, we also play as Imperials as do most of the other Knight collectors in that forum section. We post in a place where we can talk to the other Knight players. That certainly isn't going to occur in the graveyard that is the R&H forum, and nor do we want to make two posts on the *exact* same subject in both areas, to communicate with our peers.

 

In the nicest possible way, what precisely is this faction separation stubbornness about? I think it's fair to say that we've presented a well reasoned and factually truthful argument as to how you are literally dealing with one community - and one we care care about as it's members. We're getting to a wall where people who certainly hold decision making responsibility, but who aren't part of our sub community, and who have little awareness of it, are labouring the point because... it fits nicer from their perspective to have chaos in this box, Xenos in this one etc? Despite the fact that this isn't how this element of the greater community is operating. 

 

Is it OK to impair a sub community we're not involved with, because it fits our views better? Even when it would have no direct effect on us one way or the other? We might have that right, but I don't think that makes it the right way to operate.

 

If there is a real, legitimate, reasoned argument for what you're advocating, please present it! We're very willing to listen. But it's not apparent yet. And 'Chaos goes here, Imperials go here' is not a rational way forward.

[Stray]

With all due respect folks, having only recently announced the new structure any Chaos Knights discussion in the Ad Mech and Imperial Knights forum will be split and moved over by the moderation team when time permits and where relevant.

 

Yes there will be some overlap but it's no different than, say, a Predator being discussed across umpteen fora.

 

 

It's entirely different I fear. You're talking about a single vehicle that some forces have in common. We're talking about what is acting, provably, *right now* as largely a single player base and community discussing their two relevant codexes.

 

Splitting the board will cause discussion to be stifled at best, and at worst, people to leave.

[Stray]

The forum structure is constantly under review and we do take your concerns on board - once the Codex is released and we see how things are going (i.e traffic), we will change it in due course. For now, please discuss Imperial and Chaos Knights in their respective fora.

 

With all due respect to yourselves, I don't think you are taking our concerns onboard. We've again, presented a reasoned argument as a functioning community. Rather than present a counter argument, we've been told 'no, because I say so'. Can we not at least have that discussion where we all listen and understand, rather than a blanket statement?

 

We care about what we've built on that board together. We don't *want* to split our discussion between two areas when we're discussing the *same topics*.

 

I really do think - and I mean no insult - that the administration is seemingly very, very out of touch regarding the way Knights work, and as to the mini communities that exist on the boards. Not seeing the overlap, is frankly a little akin to staring at the sky and missing the sun.

Edited July 8, 2019 by Stray

[Gederas]

Stray brings up a good point.

 

Honestly, why not just have a section called "Titanic Engines" which covers Knights and Titans of all stripes? Because even the new Chaos Knights codex has all the reveals showing it to be "Codex: Imperial Knights, BUT EVIL" in terms of fluff and rules.

 

Like. There's no differences: Iconoclast Households? Imperial Houses, but evil. Infernal Households? They're literally Dark Mechanicus houses. So: AdMech Knights, but evil. Dreadblades are Freeblades but evil, etc.

 

Hell, some of the Stratagems are even unchanged in name and affect. Ion Aegis and Death Grip.

Edited July 8, 2019 by Gederas

[Stray]

Can I make a suggestion admins/mods?

 

Put a post up in Ad Mech & Knights forum to discuss this issue. Invite R&H to take part too. Let us actually explain to you our concerns as a sub community, how we use our models, where our interests are in terms of discussion, etc.

 

Post your thoughts there too on the whole thing we've been talking about here, and let us feedback to you as a whole.

 

Whatever decision you then make, you will at least really be aware of what our concerns are (you won't just be taking the word of a few of us), and that decision can be an informed one.

 

Surely that's got to be a better starting place right? Otherwise we're far less a community than we are something worse...

Edited July 8, 2019 by Stray

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Why not a poll?

[Stray]

Why not a poll?

 

Thing with polls is that anyone with no horse in the race, can anonymously have a say. I think a discussion is better - people can express how they feel in full, and why. It isn't just a popularity contest that way?

[Mushkilla]

Not sure a poll to the whole forum will result in anything other than the chaos Vs imperium divide prevailing, as if you don't actually play imperial/chaos knights or own the armies you are likely to categories them along those lines. A poll to the wider community will likely result in a solution that doesn't actually help those that are affected by this (I.e players from the current imperial knight/chaos knight subforum a.k.a the admech subforum).

 

Whether it was intended or not the current admech subforum ended up being the defacto home for imperial knights and chaos knights index. That's why every topic about chaos knights getting moved to the lost and the damned now that we are transitioning from index to codex is frustrating.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I wasn't suggesting putting it here, or to the forum at large. Perhaps put one out in the current Knight forum, so that the traffic that sees it will be (hopefully) more targeted. That way you can have both the discussion for people who are willing to invest the time to put across an opinion that way, and a casual view using the poll. It may enable you to put together an evidence base for the strength of feeling behind the different ways forward. (i.e. current position, separate Knight forum for all knights or separate knight forums.)

 

What may be nice is copying the Adeptus Astartes forum, having an overarching 'Knight' forum, with separate sub-forums for Chaos and Imperium.

[Bryan Blaire]

Guys, I know you mean well, but you’re basically making an argument while explaining how you’ve been breaking the board rules. The idea that a topic gets moved to the appropriate board location for discussion, but you go on discussing that topic in another thread or even start a new one in the place the discussion was just moved from for being in the wrong place, but just don’t mention the “naughty” words that get it flagged for moving to the proper location for the discussion pretty much means you are going ahead with an off-topic discussion for the area and just trying to hide that fact.

 

I don’t know that this particular vein of argument is going to endear the administrative staff to the idea... I know that’s probably not what you want to hear, but it’s the honest truth from the outside.

 

Now, I don’t know if folks were told that “Chaos Knights get discussed here” in the AdMech forum area or not (I believe that I had already retired as a Mod), but I wouldn’t think that discussion of Chaos in the Imperium section of the forum was ever really the encouraged idea, no matter how similar the discussions might have been.

[Stray]

When there is a little to no discussion to be had in the other areas, and we see ourselves as Knight players, not Chaos, not Imperial, what would you do?

 

Board Mods have had no issue with this in large part, and have in fact taken part in those same discussions.

 

It doesn't change the issues at hand. We have a community we love on that board. What we're being told so far is 'tough', because people *un-involved* in that community, like the idea of faction separation. What we feel we're hearing is, is that that community isn't ours, it belongs to the Administration. And though we nurture it and use it, it'll be broken into two pieces because 'we say so'.

 

Adults discuss and compromise. Parents and dictators lay down rules that they expect to be followed. We're grown individuals who don't need parenting, and I don't believe you to be dictators, so please, lets choose the adult option.

 

Ask yourselves, what harm is being done here? This is supposed to be a community for the discussion of the 40K hobby - that's all we're asking for it to be. As admins and mods, I see your role as facilitating that - am I wrong? When an established community is dissembled, the opposite is occurring.

 

Yes, there are guidelines to what is to be posted where. But if they are so inflexible as to be hampering discussion - which is clearly the case here - they need revising. It's common sense. We're trapped in pointless inflexible legalism otherwise.

[Beren]

Guys, I know you mean well, but you’re basically making an argument while explaining how you’ve been breaking the board rules. The idea that a topic gets moved to the appropriate board location for discussion, but you go on discussing that topic in another thread or even start a new one in the place the discussion was just moved from for being in the wrong place, but just don’t mention the “naughty” words that get it flagged for moving to the proper location for the discussion pretty much means you are going ahead with an off-topic discussion for the area and just trying to hide that fact.

I don’t know that this particular vein of argument is going to endear the administrative staff to the idea... I know that’s probably not what you want to hear, but it’s the honest truth from the outside.

Now, I don’t know if folks were told that “Chaos Knights get discussed here” in the AdMech forum area or not (I believe that I had already retired as a Mod), but I wouldn’t think that discussion of Chaos in the Imperium section of the forum was ever really the encouraged idea, no matter how similar the discussions might have been.

Honestly I feel that the Knight Community has been put in a lose-lose situation regarding this. The point is that the rules in this instance are not fit for purpose, which is why they are not being followed to the letter. They risk being penalised for not following the rules, but if they did begrudgingly adhere to these rules then their arguments would be dismissed because ''there's no overlap". Edited July 8, 2019 by Beren

[Bryan Blaire]

I’m not a Mod, I’m a former Mod, and I’m trying to give some perspective - but the board isn’t a democracy. The point has been raised, and like all other points about board organization, the Admins will eventually make a decision. You don’t have to take my word for it though, but I thought some perspective on why y’all might be seeing a less than receptive group to the argument was warranted. I’m not involved in these discussions at all, I’m an outsider to the inner workings of the board now since I stepped down, but an Admin has posted where the discussions are supposed to take place right now.

 

Regarding the rules - everyone that joined the B&C agreed to abide by the Rules of the B&C when they joined. There are actions that can be taken for not doing so - I’ve been on the giving end and the receiving end of such.

[Stray]

I’m not a Mod, I’m a former Mod, and I’m trying to give some perspective - but the board isn’t a democracy. The point has been raised, an like all other points about board organization, the Admins will eventually make a decision.

 

Regarding the rules - everyone that joined the B&C agreed to abide by the Rules of the B&C. There are actions that can be taken for not doing so - I’ve been on the giving end and the receiving end of such.

 

Fair enough Bryan, and thank you - the perspective is appreciated.

 

The board has an owner, and as such, is as you say, not a democracy. But the operators should respect the users, as much as expect the same for their rules an policies. If a rule doesn't work, we shouldn't be so inflexible as to not discuss the situation with a view to potentially changing it.

 

Forums as a whole are an ageing part of the internet, one that is rapidly dropping off the radar these days. We just want to continue building a corner here for a 40K sub community. Clearly, we need the help and support of the Admins to do that.

 

Can we not have that discussion? Because while they have the right (and one I support) to a final say, the process of decision should not be for the admins alone.

Edited July 8, 2019 by Stray

[Mushkilla]

I’m not a Mod, I’m a former Mod, and I’m trying to give some perspective - but the board isn’t a democracy. The point has been raised, and like all other points about board organization, the Admins will eventually make a decision. You don’t have to take my word for it though, but I thought some perspective on why y’all might be seeing a less than receptive group to the argument was warranted. I’m not involved in these discussions at all, I’m an outsider to the inner workings of the board now since I stepped down, but an Admin has posted where the discussions are supposed to take place right now.

As an inactive moderator in two other 40k communities I can relate to that. Most forums are run by volunteers and are understaffed. Blanket and sometimes arbitrary rules (like having a imperium section and a chaos section) are there for a reason, mainly making stretched resources reach a bit further and making things more manageable with the available moderators/admins. It' easier when you can point to a decision and say this is the way things have always been. Truth be told, if admins/moderators reacted to every complaint or issue raised by their members with haste there would never be an end to it. These things take time.

 

I guess as members of that knight sub community it feels more urgent, hence our enthusiasm. We also care deeply about this forum as it's the only relatively active place to discuss Knights outside of dakkadakka.

 

Anyway, I appreciate the work you guys do and understand how ungrateful a task managing a community can be. Thanks.

 

Edit: I'm also aware how long the admin discussion can take behind closed doors (and that there most likely is a discussion happening right now on some admin subsection). It's easy to forget that we don't have visibility of that discussion so it's easy for us to be feel that discussion isn't happening and our concerns are being dismissed/swept aside, when they aren't. 

Edited July 8, 2019 by Mushkilla

[Brother Tyler]

At this point, it is simply too soon to jump to any conclusions and make any significant changes. We need time as a community to see how the new faction will impact the game, how the site can support discussion of the new faction, and what changes might be necessary to better support the new faction.

 

As with any "new" faction, status quo is sub-optimal and some changes will be necessary. We need to consider the full range of possible changes, though, and discern what is truly necessary and supports the overall needs of the community.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

In any event, is it possible to separate out the Imperial Knights from Ad-Mech? You said you perhaps had a plan for this May last year?

[Brother Tyler]

In any event, is it possible to separate out the Imperial Knights from Ad-Mech? You said you perhaps had a plan for this May last year?

This isn't outside the realm of the possible, but any such change would be based on a compelling need for a dedicated Imperial Knights forum. So far, we haven't seen sufficient sustained traffic (discussion) to warrant a dedicated forum. The two alternatives to a dedicated Imperial Knights forum are to to consolidate them into either the Adeptus Mechanicus or Agents of the Imperium forums. There are valid arguments for both, but we've gone with the former for now because, despite the independence of Imperium-aligned Knight Houses, all rely to a significant degree upon support from the Adeptus Mechanicus. It's a tenuous argument, but if it fails, we would simply go with the Agents of the Imperium forum due to the lack of traffic. This might change in the future if we see a compelling need.

[Stray]

 

In any event, is it possible to separate out the Imperial Knights from Ad-Mech? You said you perhaps had a plan for this May last year?

This isn't outside the realm of the possible, but any such change would be based on a compelling need for a dedicated Imperial Knights forum. So far, we haven't seen sufficient sustained traffic (discussion) to warrant a dedicated forum. The two alternatives to a dedicated Imperial Knights forum are to to consolidate them into either the Adeptus Mechanicus or Agents of the Imperium forums. There are valid arguments for both, but we've gone with the former for now because, despite the independence of Imperium-aligned Knight Houses, all rely to a significant degree upon support from the Adeptus Mechanicus. It's a tenuous argument, but if it fails, we would simply go with the Agents of the Imperium forum due to the lack of traffic. This might change in the future if we see a compelling need.

 

 

Do you not think we're in danger of creating a self fulfilling prophecy here?

 

Knights are arguably the best selling model range GW produces for 40K right now. There is certainly the player base to discuss them, and I'd argue we have far more active Knight community on these boards, than we have for several other armies with dedicated homes.

 

Isn't then not just possible, but likely, that the lack of a dedicated home on the boards is the reason you're not perceiving this traffic? There is highly active, daily discussion occurring across multiple posts regarding Knights in the Ad Mech forum...

 

On my first visit to B&C, it took me some time to figure out where I could find Knight discussion, and I came for specifically that reason.

[NiftyVT]

Look at Stray and NiftyVT's threads in the AdMech forum, which are currenyl two of the three most active Knight threads (outside of Hermanista's thread). Both are for the Traitor House Makabius (and Xana II)

And they're not in the chaos part because...why exactly?

Because when I look on my bookshelf my rule book says "Codex Adeptus Mechanicus."

 

When it comes down to rules and tactics I really just play AdMech as there is no such thing as Dark Mechanicus. Or as I like to call it Dark Mechanicum but that's just because i like to make crazy conversions and paint my toy soldiers in off white and then call them "evil" . . .well really I say that they are 'on the true path' or some other tongue and cheek thing about them beleiving that they are the good guys.

 

If I was over in the chaos section I would be talking to myself unless someone happened to see the thread when they searched using the 'new content' button. I combined my Knights and AdMech because its convenient for me to keep track of, they use the same basic painting techniques and, in my mind, are the same force.

 

My thread really isn't a tactics or discussion thread it's my hobby blog. If people have comments or questions about anything painting/modeling wise I help out where I can. Personally I care very little about optimizing lists, building combo wombos or whatever else the cooperative 'meta' is doing.

 

If I am forced to split my AdMech and Knights into separate threads I probably wouldn't bother with either.

[Stray]

I'm at risk of burning bridges and pouring fuel on a fire with this post, but I need to speak honestly about how I feel about our community, and what I'm seeing here.

 

I hope, however it's taken, it's understood to be coming from someone that genuinely cares, and it's useful feedback for all  - regardless of how easy or hard it is to swallow.

 

I have a mental illness that makes social interaction almost impossible for me in the 'real world'. Most days, it isn't possible to go outside, let alone play or discuss 40K or other interests I have with anyone.

 

None of that is anyone's problem but mine. 

 

I don't mention the above to illicit sympathy, or to subtly ask for special treatment. What I do want is to illustrate why the Knight community on B&C is SO important to me, and just as important to many others. These aren't just people we speak to on a forum, in many cases they are real friends. People we live and laugh with.

 

There IS a real, functioning sub-community that loves Knights (BOTH kinds) within the Ad Mech forum. It's passionate, and it's important.

 

What I'm seeing here are arbitrary decisions made by people who are completely uninvolved with OUR community, making decisions on it's future. Worse, these decisions are being done behind closed doors, with little feedback, and no discussion whatsoever with the community that will be affected.

 

Yes. You have that power. Of course you do. But whatever rules may be in place, you can also choose exactly how you wield it.

 

What harm is being done by us having the community we already have, that embraces Knights as a whole? Please, I'd really appreciate an answer to this. There has been none so far.

If there is no harm, nor inconvenience to others (which I can't see not to be the case), why not allow it?

 

We have promises that are at least a year old now, about plans for the Knight community. There has been nothing implemented, and many of us feel you are out of touch with this sub community and our needs.

 

This comment is barbed. I realise that, but I hope it provokes thought and shows you why some of us are frustrated. The individuals making these decisions for us, should think about a career in politics. Politicians also makes decisions that the people they are supposed to serve can do little about, and without any reasonable discussion...

 

...but at least we can vote them out :/

 

Please, lets talk. Lets actually have this discussion and open up a path to better way of handling this.

Edited July 9, 2019 by Stray

[Panzer]

And what would stop you from talking Chaos Knight stuff in the chaos section and Imperial Knight stuff in the imperial section?

 

I'm with the mods with seeing the risk (more like a certainty) of suddenly having a bunch of discussions involving CSM, TSons, DG and Daemons as well as regular Marines, AdMech and AM all in the same place.

I'm planning to buy myself some Imperial Knights but no Chaos Knights so when I want to read and talk about them I really couldn't care less about sorting through all the chaos related threads and posts if it were a mixed section.

 

At that point why have sections in a forum at all in the first place?