MagicMan Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 So of course it depends on the mission/opponent, but whats the general feel of the Codex Tactics for you guys? For me, i feel like squads of bolter/special weapons want to use transports to get close and unload on the enemy. They give me a Sternguard vibe when i read through the book. Heavy firepower, but every loss hurts. The Deathwatch dont have the endurance to hang around midfield like Necrons do. Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vel'Cona Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 The Deathwatch dont have the endurance to hang around midfield like Necrons do. Thoughts? Indeed, this is pretty true even with the points reductions/shiny new Primaris toys we got in the new 'dex. Previously, DW were overpriced with significant firepower but not nearly enough to "clean house" when we deep struck in. The new book provides some welcome benefits, notably being able to deep strike almost anything (Dreadnoughts being the big winners here), a host of tailored and non-tailored Strategems (necessitating a large pool of CPs to maximize their potential) and some competitively priced multi-wound infantry (Primaris) with the ability to blend Kill Teams for added benefits. The downsides for DW, however, remain the same: expensive dudes, limited resilience and a noted lack of favourite C: SM units. Perhaps worst of all is the temptation to take all the fancy toys in every list, and the massive detriment this has in points bloating our units. Frugality is the key in maximizing DW, both in army building and on the tabletop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claws and Effect Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 I found a neat trick to help alleviate some of the Command point woes. I haven't tried it yet, but I haven't seen anything in the rules that disallows it. Deathwatch battalion with the Warlord given Lord of Hidden Knowledge. Combined with a Blood Angels Vanguard with a character given the Veritas Vitae. Since one is a Warlord Trait and the other is a relic they should both function simultaneously, letting you roll 2 dice every time you use a Strategem. If you use a lot of 1CP Strategems you could potentially gain more CP than you started with. Plus the Blood Angels can provide the CC punch we're somewhat lacking in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stiff Crayons Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 Frugality is the key in maximizing DW, both in army building and on the tabletop. Truer words have never been spoken. Boys before toys! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leth Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 I found a neat trick to help alleviate some of the Command point woes. I haven't tried it yet, but I haven't seen anything in the rules that disallows it. Deathwatch battalion with the Warlord given Lord of Hidden Knowledge. Combined with a Blood Angels Vanguard with a character given the Veritas Vitae. Since one is a Warlord Trait and the other is a relic they should both function simultaneously, letting you roll 2 dice every time you use a Strategem. If you use a lot of 1CP Strategems you could potentially gain more CP than you started with. Plus the Blood Angels can provide the CC punch we're somewhat lacking in. I would also add in the IG Battalion for cheap CP as well as the relic that gives a CP when your opponent uses a strategem on a 5+. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qui-Gon Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 I've been designing a detachment of scouts and techmarines from blood angels for that relic since the reveal of the Lord of Hidden Knowledge trait was teased.I wouldn't want to dedicate 500 pts and 2 detachment slots on both blood angels and imperial guard and so souping my Deathwatch though. I feel dirty enough already cheesing the system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leth Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 I've been designing a detachment of scouts and techmarines from blood angels for that relic since the reveal of the Lord of Hidden Knowledge trait was teased. I wouldn't want to dedicate 500 pts and 2 detachment slots on both blood angels and imperial guard and so souping my Deathwatch though. I feel dirty enough already cheesing the system. I think that the IG and the DW one is enough. IG is cheap enough(Cheapest Battalion is 180 pts!!) that gives you the 5 CP you need(4 after relic), gives bodies for board control until the DW arrive(another thing desperately needed), and are a great way to bring in some Anti-Tank(allowing the DW to focus on killing Infantry instead of trying to do something they are worse at). I dont think the Blood Angels really add anything that is worth such a significant points investment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delta.Skies Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 I've been designing a detachment of scouts and techmarines from blood angels for that relic since the reveal of the Lord of Hidden Knowledge trait was teased. I wouldn't want to dedicate 500 pts and 2 detachment slots on both blood angels and imperial guard and so souping my Deathwatch though. I feel dirty enough already cheesing the system. I think that the IG and the DW one is enough. IG is cheap enough(Cheapest Battalion is 180 pts!!) that gives you the 5 CP you need(4 after relic), gives bodies for board control until the DW arrive(another thing desperately needed), and are a great way to bring in some Anti-Tank(allowing the DW to focus on killing Infantry instead of trying to do something they are worse at). I dont think the Blood Angels really add anything that is worth such a significant points investment. My army is IG and DW and a auxiliary INQ for fluff purposes for this exact reason. The only thing I implemented was a tank commander with punisher gatling cannon. While my DW are behind enemy lines for their glass cannon effect. But hidden knowledge and deep striking would be my go to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vel'Cona Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 I just use two DW battalions. It may not be the best from a Mathhammer-centric standpoint, but it looks cohesive on the tabletop and that's enough for me :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemondish Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 I just use two DW battalions. It may not be the best from a Mathhammer-centric standpoint, but it looks cohesive on the tabletop and that's enough for me I'd like to get there, but I find it hard to give up the cheap screening bodies and bubblewrap. Even now I feel like I don't have enough bodies, but I need a few more games to see if my offensive punch means I don't need more of them. Right now I'm running two battalions: one DW and one AM. The split is ~ 1380 DW and the rest AM. I could probably get to two DW batts and a barebones AM one, but I wanted to add in some heavy armour threats so the AM batt is carrying a couple tank commanders. Though at the same time I've been really considering going all in with DW and ignoring my screening and board control concerns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheUbikator Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 Patrol det. for deathwatch, battalions for the rest of the army. I've found that DW kinda needs toys (naked boltguns and chainswords are not enough) and two kill teams are the sweet spot. You'll rarely need more than one HQ, and you can easily do stuff like: one kill team split into combat squads (Vets with stalker pattern boltguns in razorback and bikers with vanguard vet running ahead) and another in corvus with the character moving forward. Throw in Guard Battalion and/or spearhead for the rest of the points and you have nice army composition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qui-Gon Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 Agreed, Deathwatch need toys, but they also need ablative wounds so the expensive toys you bought can do work.This is not the previous edition where you had to shoot everything at one unit, and so I've found being able to split fire is amazing to optimize my squads.2 Frag cannons, 2 shotguns/boltguns, shotgun/boltgun and storm shield is the most efficient, hard hitting unit I've found. It works, it can survive depending on the firepower thrown at it, and it is mobile enough to get where it needs to go with rhinos/razors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drizzt79 Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 So of course it depends on the mission/opponent, but whats the general feel of the Codex Tactics for you guys? For me, i feel like squads of bolter/special weapons want to use transports to get close and unload on the enemy. They give me a Sternguard vibe when i read through the book. Heavy firepower, but every loss hurts. The Deathwatch dont have the endurance to hang around midfield like Necrons do. Thoughts? My strategy is to keep in DS reserve/hidden heavy hitting troops (8vets+2trmies team, fortis with 5 hellblasters, plasma inceptors etc). Turn 1 move bikers, razorbacks, intercessors using LOS to hide them, shoot with long range weapons (I have 2 vendreads in my backyard TLLC+Missile launcher) Turn 2 move forward with midfield troops and bikers toward objectives, deepstrike the heavy hitting squads together with my jump pack captain (he has the beacon angelis).....shoot all I got on the enemy.....see the expression of my opponent, not understanding how could he lose in one turn 50% of his forces Turn 3 survive retaliation (stormshields are good to soak low ap wounds, and termies for ap0....intercessors are there to cover the hellblasters in the fortis...inceptors have T5 so they can manage some punishment) Turn 4 finish the job Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stiff Crayons Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 Agreed, Deathwatch need toys, but they also need ablative wounds so the expensive toys you bought can do work. This is not the previous edition where you had to shoot everything at one unit, and so I've found being able to split fire is amazing to optimize my squads. 2 Frag cannons, 2 shotguns/boltguns, shotgun/boltgun and storm shield is the most efficient, hard hitting unit I've found. It works, it can survive depending on the firepower thrown at it, and it is mobile enough to get where it needs to go with rhinos/razors. That 5-man configuration sounds very nice. I’ve been in a habit running 10 man teams because I feel I need to, but running smaller teams with a variety of tools might bring some fun flexibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemondish Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 Agreed, Deathwatch need toys, but they also need ablative wounds so the expensive toys you bought can do work. This is not the previous edition where you had to shoot everything at one unit, and so I've found being able to split fire is amazing to optimize my squads. 2 Frag cannons, 2 shotguns/boltguns, shotgun/boltgun and storm shield is the most efficient, hard hitting unit I've found. It works, it can survive depending on the firepower thrown at it, and it is mobile enough to get where it needs to go with rhinos/razors. That 5-man configuration sounds very nice. I’ve been in a habit running 10 man teams because I feel I need to, but running smaller teams with a variety of tools might bring some fun flexibility. I always stick with 10 man squads now with DW - the stratagems have been such a huge benefit and I like the impact they have on larger units. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ashc Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 What configuration are you using at 10 men, Lemondish? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N1SB Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 one kill team split into combat squads (Vets with stalker pattern boltguns in razorback and bikers with vanguard vet running ahead) The Combat Squading, which I have rarely ever done before, seems to be the standout DW strategy for me at this time. That's just personal, though. My reasoning was, what does DW do that others don't. I absolutely agree with what this subforum has mentioned so far, the Chainsword becoming the standard sidearm instead of a bolt pistol, and I'll probably take different patterns of bolters than normal just to more fully utilise Special Issue Ammo. However, if I wanted to deep strike a Dreadnought, for example, I might turn to Raven Guard instead for their Strike From the Shadows, etc. A Troops-based 5-man team of Bikers + 1 Vanguard, however, is something unique to DW this edition I believe. I think it's still eligible for Objective Secured, plus they combine the White Scars Chapter Tactic with the ability to fire after Falling Back thanks to the Vanguard. That utilises their double bolters with Special Issue Ammo. This is an example of what DO does that others can't. There are limitations to this though as they have to Combat Squad to do it, so maybe only for smaller games up to 1000 pts? Really liking this thread, btw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MagicMan Posted May 22, 2018 Author Share Posted May 22, 2018 Some interesting replies here guys, thanks for the input! Its nice to get some strategy/tactics talk going. So far all ive seen is people arguing loadout/stormbolters. Im starting to think DW might struggle as an independant army, but they make a great hammer to an allied anvil. Its more obvious what they bring to an allied Imperial Guard force. Do you think they bring anything to a codex SM or even Admech force? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreatGooglyMoogly Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 I reckon Ad Mech could be used effectively for anti-armour with Onagers, and a battalion is pretty cheap with rangers and enginseers. Gives us access to a good sniper weapon too, on a body that has base BS3+. I don't play codex sm, so I cannot comment there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MagicMan Posted May 23, 2018 Author Share Posted May 23, 2018 I agree that Admech could be a good fit. I came up with this, where the Admech and a single squad of DW start the game on the field. The rangers hunker down in cover on objectives, or spread out for board denial. The onagers set up to hunt armour, boost each others invuln save and recieve repairs from the priests. Meanwhile turn 2, jump pack guys deepstrike in. 2 squads deepstrike in via strategems, and the 3rd teleports over via beacon angelis. The librarian uses his powers to boost the melee orientated squad so that it can get into combat. I think itd be hard to pull off this flexibility with pure deathwatch. ++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Deathwatch) [51 PL, 750pts] ++ + HQ + Librarian with Jump Pack [7 PL, 124pts]: 1) Veil of Time, 2) Might of Heroes, Force sword, Jump Pack, Storm Bolter Watch Captain [7 PL, 119pts]: Bolt Pistol, Castellan of the Black Vault, Jump Pack, Storm Bolter, The Beacon Angelis, Thunder hammer, Warlord + Troops + Veterans [19 PL, 266pts] . Vanguard Veteran . . Bolt Pistol And Chainsword: Bolt Pistol . Veteran: Chainsword, Storm Bolter . Veteran: Chainsword, Storm Bolter . Veteran: Chainsword, Storm Bolter . Veteran: Chainsword, Storm Bolter . Veteran: Chainsword, Storm Bolter . Veteran w/ Heavy Weapon: Deathwatch Frag Cannon . Veteran w/ Heavy Weapon: Deathwatch Frag Cannon . Veteran w/ Heavy Weapon: Deathwatch Frag Cannon . Watch Sergeant: Power sword, Storm Bolter Veterans [9 PL, 134pts] . Veteran: Boltgun, Thunder hammer . Veteran: Boltgun, Thunder hammer . Veteran: Boltgun, Power axe . Veteran: Boltgun, Power axe . Watch Sergeant: Power sword, Storm Bolter Veterans [9 PL, 107pts] . Veteran: Chainsword, Deathwatch Shotgun . Veteran: Chainsword, Deathwatch Shotgun . Veteran: Chainsword, Deathwatch Shotgun . Veteran: Chainsword, Deathwatch Shotgun . Watch Sergeant: Deathwatch Shotgun, Power fist ++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Adeptus Mechanicus) [45 PL, 750pts] ++ + Uncategorised + Forge World: Stygies VIII + HQ + Tech-Priest Dominus [7 PL, 125pts]: Autocaduceus of Arkhan Land, Macrostubber, Omnissian Axe, Volkite Blaster Tech-Priest Enginseer [3 PL, 47pts]: Omnissian Axe, Servo-arm + Troops + Skitarii Rangers [7 PL, 103pts] . 2x Ranger (Arc Rifle): 2x Arc rifle . Ranger (Transuranic Arquebus): Transuranic arquebus . Ranger Alpha: Galvanic rifle . 6x Skitarii Ranger Skitarii Rangers [7 PL, 103pts] . 2x Ranger (Arc Rifle): 2x Arc rifle . Ranger (Transuranic Arquebus): Transuranic arquebus . Ranger Alpha: Galvanic rifle . 6x Skitarii Ranger Skitarii Rangers [7 PL, 82pts] . 3x Ranger (Arc Rifle): 3x Arc rifle . Ranger Alpha: Galvanic rifle . 6x Skitarii Ranger + Heavy Support + Onager Dunecrawler [7 PL, 145pts]: Broad Spectrum Data-tether, Cognis heavy stubber . Neutron laser & cognis heavy Stubber: Cognis heavy stubber, Neutron Laser Onager Dunecrawler [7 PL, 145pts]: Broad Spectrum Data-tether, Cognis heavy stubber . Neutron laser & cognis heavy Stubber: Cognis heavy stubber, Neutron Laser ++ Total: [96 PL, 1500pts] ++ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delta.Skies Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 From batreps that I've seen, unless we are fighting other elite codes we struggle. But with an allied force I feel that's where we shine. Hell even lore wise it seems like that. But as an allied force that pushes up on the sides or backfield. I think we do well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moostick Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 You 100% must have some stormshields in your DW units; at the very least in your 10 man unit. They will already be cut down easily with them, but without they are just butter. A lot of things will wound them on 2s and reduce their saves to 5 or 6+ easily. Hive guards and basilisks being the absolute banes of our existence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemondish Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 What configuration are you using at 10 men, Lemondish? I run 2 vet squads with this makeup: 4 Veterans with storm bolter and chainsword (including the sgt.) 2 Veterans with storm bolter and storm shield 2 Veterans with frag cannons 1 Terminator with axe and storm bolter 1 Vanguard Veteran with dual chainswords They've been consistently strong thanks to weight of attacks both in melee and shooting, so when I pop a Xeno specific strat (if it fits) or add +1 to wound, they really bring the pain. I ran a more melee focused version where I swapped the 1 frag cannon for a black shield with dual lightning claws, the other for a normal SB/CS vet, and gave the sgt. dual lightning claws as well. I didn't like giving up how awesome and fun FCs can be. For Primaris, I run two types - one with 5 auto bolt rifle Intercessors, 4 boltstorm Aggressors, and 1 bolter Inceptor. The second is 5 bolt rifle Intercessors, 4 rapid fire incinerator Hellblasters, and 1 plasma Inceptor. The Intergressor squad is also amazing with all the shooting, rerolls to shooting, and +1 to wound. It makes Vengeance auto bolt rifles really strong and gives the rest of the dakka amazing bite. I really like using the stratagems personally, but I can see how MSU is pretty cool and powerful as well. Not my style, but definitely viable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claws and Effect Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 I've been designing a detachment of scouts and techmarines from blood angels for that relic since the reveal of the Lord of Hidden Knowledge trait was teased. I wouldn't want to dedicate 500 pts and 2 detachment slots on both blood angels and imperial guard and so souping my Deathwatch though. I feel dirty enough already cheesing the system. That's why I picked a Vanguard instead. I'm using Death Company for CC duty. Will probably also have Mephiston and a Librarian dread. Might just do a Supreme Command detachment instead so I can take Lemartes too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Ed Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 I'm at work and don't have my books, but doesn't your warlord have to be out of the codex to access the relics contained therein? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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