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Kill Team Compositions/Builds

Composition Deathwatch kill team

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#51
Lemondish

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Is there a reason why people are so fond for Power Swords? So much stuff has invulnerable buffs that I think paying a point extra for an Axe is well worth the added flexibility. I'll gladly give that marine a 5+ save if it means I'm wounding on a 3 instead of a 4


I won't speak for anybody else, but if I'm not using chainswords, any power weapon choice is made because I like the way they look or I don't have easy access to axe bits.

I don't want my vets in combat, but if they have to I prefer to take the extra attack for 0 points. If I'm not looking to be as efficient, then I agree axes are well worth their points.
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#52
justicarius6

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I quickly knocked up a Battalion that I'll be planning to use to supplement my Ultramarine gunline as a deepstrike "Hammer".

Watch Captain - Jump Pack, Stormbolter (w.Bane bolts), Thunder Hammer
Termi. Watch Captain - Combi-melta, Powerfist and Melta, Grenade Launcher

10 x Veterans - 1 Vanguard (w. chainsword and handflamer purely for the model), 4 Frag Cannons, 1 sergeant and 4 vets all w. Stormbolters and Stormshield

5 x Veterans - 1 w. Heavy Thunder Hammer, 1 blackshield, 1 sergeant, 4 x power mauls and stormshields.

5 x Veterans - Blackshield, Sergeant, all armed with bolters and chainswords.

All five can be deepstruck in and can handle a variety of threats whilst the Ultramarines pour out their long range firepower.

#53
Lemondish

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I keep forgetting about the wrist mounted grenade launcher. I wonder where the best place to mount it would be. That power fist is eventually going to look Orky with all the guns strapped to it lol.

#54
Drizzt79

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I keep forgetting about the wrist mounted grenade launcher. I wonder where the best place to mount it would be. That power fist is eventually going to look Orky with all the guns strapped to it lol.


Grenade launcher on a termie captain? How? I checked the codex and found no reference to it.

#55
Lemondish

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I keep forgetting about the wrist mounted grenade launcher. I wonder where the best place to mount it would be. That power fist is eventually going to look Orky with all the guns strapped to it lol.

Grenade launcher on a termie captain? How? I checked the codex and found no reference to it.

It's an index item since that data sheet was a copy of the normal marine Terminator captain.

Basically 4 points for an extra weapon.

#56
Moostick

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I keep forgetting about the wrist mounted grenade launcher. I wonder where the best place to mount it would be. That power fist is eventually going to look Orky with all the guns strapped to it lol.

Grenade launcher on a termie captain? How? I checked the codex and found no reference to it.

It's an index item since that data sheet was a copy of the normal marine Terminator captain.

Basically 4 points for an extra weapon.

 

 

FYI before you do that, Index put extra restrictions on the Index datasheet of Captain in Terminator armour for Deathwatch, so it's not legal for us even by Index standards. Specifically, the only change to our default equipment we were permitted was exchanging the Power Sword for the Relic Blade.


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#57
Drizzt79

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I keep forgetting about the wrist mounted grenade launcher. I wonder where the best place to mount it would be. That power fist is eventually going to look Orky with all the guns strapped to it lol.

Grenade launcher on a termie captain? How? I checked the codex and found no reference to it.

It's an index item since that data sheet was a copy of the normal marine Terminator captain.
Basically 4 points for an extra weapon.
 
FYI before you do that, Index put extra restrictions on the Index datasheet of Captain in Terminator armour for Deathwatch, so it's not legal for us even by Index standards. Specifically, the only change to our default equipment we were permitted was exchanging the Power Sword for the Relic Blade.

Yep Moostick is right, not legal.
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#58
Lemondish

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I keep forgetting about the wrist mounted grenade launcher. I wonder where the best place to mount it would be. That power fist is eventually going to look Orky with all the guns strapped to it lol.

Grenade launcher on a termie captain? How? I checked the codex and found no reference to it.

It's an index item since that data sheet was a copy of the normal marine Terminator captain.

Basically 4 points for an extra weapon.

 

 

FYI before you do that, Index put extra restrictions on the Index datasheet of Captain in Terminator armour for Deathwatch, so it's not legal for us even by Index standards. Specifically, the only change to our default equipment we were permitted was exchanging the Power Sword for the Relic Blade.

 

 

Ah, thanks for the info. That helps me immensely (nowhere to mount the bloody thing and saves me 4 points). Someone should inform whoever makes the Battlescribe files (I will, but the more voices the better) - I never owned the Index so was never aware of these limitations you mentioned. 


Edited by Lemondish, 02 July 2018 - 05:47 PM.


#59
spacewatch

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Is there a reason why people are so fond for Power Swords? So much stuff has invulnerable buffs that I think paying a point extra for an Axe is well worth the added flexibility. I'll gladly give that marine a 5+ save if it means I'm wounding on a 3 instead of a 4


I won't speak for anybody else, but if I'm not using chainswords, any power weapon choice is made because I like the way they look or I don't have easy access to axe bits.

I don't want my vets in combat, but if they have to I prefer to take the extra attack for 0 points. If I'm not looking to be as efficient, then I agree axes are well worth their points.

 

 

Could not resist studying this a bit so I did some estimations. Don't know if this is useful at all but ...here we go. First unsuccessful saves for various AP (single dice roll).

 

     Sv2  Sv3  Sv4  Sv5  Sv6 Sv7

AP0 0,17 0,33 0,50 0,67 0,83 1,00

AP1 0,33 0,50 0,67 0,83 1,00 1,00

AP2 0,50 0,67 0,83 1,00 1,00 1,00

AP3 0,67 0,83 1,00 1,00 1,00 1,00

 

To understand table better same data but relative to chainsword. So for example when save is Sv3 then axe doubles your chances compared to chainsword (chainsword because its auto include nowadays).

 

     Sv2  Sv3  Sv4  Sv5  Sv6  Sv7

AP0 1,00 1,00 1,00 1,00 1,00 1,00

AP1 2,00 1,50 1,33 1,25 1,20 1,00

AP2 3,00 2,00 1,67 1,50 1,20 1,00

AP3 4,00 2,50 2,00 1,50 1,20 1,00

 

Next some real numbers so table for T4 toughness when you use various power weapons or chainsword (CCW is same as chainsword but just two attacks). It's easy to see how axe gives you best overall effectiveness gain for it's. (number is calculated the usual way so number of attacks x hits x wounds and then x save from above table)

 

T4              Sv2  Sv3  Sv4  Sv5  Sv6  Sv7

AP0 CCW/inv.   0,67 0,67 0,67 0,67 0,67 0,67

AP0 chainsword 1,00 1,00 1,00 1,00 1,00 1,00

AP1 maul       1,78 1,33 1,19 1,11 1,07 0,89

AP2 axe        2,67 1,78 1,48 1,33 1,07 0,89

AP3 sword      2,67 1,67 1,33 1,00 0,80 0,67

 

Same but T5 toughness. Maul becomes now best overall choice. I'd still take axe because it still works equally well against models having Sv2-Sv4 save.

 

T5              Sv2  Sv3  Sv4  Sv5  Sv6  Sv7

AP0 CCW/inv.   0,67 0,67 0,67 0,67 0,67 0,67

AP0 chainsword 1,00 1,00 1,00 1,00 1,00 1,00

AP1 maul       1,78 1,33 1,19 1,11 1,07 0,89

AP2 axe        2,00 1,33 1,11 1,00 0,80 0,67

AP3 sword      1,78 1,11 0,89 0,67 0,53 0,44

 

All clear? (Btw, I just hope I did not make any errors; please tell me since I'm integrating this to my big-and-way-too-complex-WH40-estimation-o'matic.) Now let's think about invulnerable saves a bit. When model has inv. save it means your power weapon practically becomes CCW except when you have chainsword which gives you extra attack. Good example of this is axe which normally is against T5Sv3 x1,33 more effective than chainsword but against Sv3++ becomes just 0,67 effective. Meaning that inv. save makes chainsword x1,5 better than axe. Now if you study tables more closely you see that there are not too many cases where you get x1,5+ boost using power weapon. Actually if you leave Sv2 out so not for example trying to melee Termies with chainswords then there are only three cases where power weapon gives you near x1,5 or better boost. This makes me wonder why take power weapons at all ...or if and when you need melee tool just take hammers of fists because they are best against Sv2-Sv4 both T4 and T5. Hmm.... why did I not do this estimation before I ordered FW tartaros SB&axe set ermm.gif  which combo btw looks cool in Vet's hands wink.png


Edited by spacewatch, 02 July 2018 - 07:21 PM.

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#60
zero88

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Thoughts on this Corvus deployed Kill Team I drafted up? The idea is to have a team which has to be dealt with or they'll delete a unit a turn, but are tough to shift from shooting and will slaughter almost anything from overwatch. I'm using all 12 transport spots and all auto hitting weapons so they aren't reliant on having a character nearby, and can be beaconed out without leaving other units stranded.. Almost like *gasp* a kill team might really be!

[20 PL, 306pts]

Terminator w/ Heavy Weapon [3 PL, 52pts]
Selections: Heavy flamer [pts], Power sword [pts]

Vanguard Veteran [2 PL, 31pts]
Selections: Bolt Pistol [pts], Power fist [pts]

Veteran [2 PL, 19pts]
Selections: Chainsword, Deathwatch Shotgun [pts]

Veteran [2 PL, 19pts]
Selections: Chainsword, Deathwatch Shotgun [pts]

Veteran [2 PL, 24pts]
Selections: Deathwatch Shotgun [pts], Storm shield [pts]

Veteran [2 PL, 24pts]
Selections: Deathwatch Shotgun [pts], Storm shield [pts]

Veteran [2 PL, 24pts]
Selections: Deathwatch Shotgun [pts], Storm shield [pts]

Veteran w/ Heavy Weapon [2 PL, 41pts]
Selections: Deathwatch Frag Cannon [pts]

Veteran w/ Heavy Weapon [2 PL, 41pts]
Selections: Deathwatch Frag Cannon [pts]

Watch Sergeant [2 PL, 31pts]
Selections: Deathwatch Shotgun [pts], Power fist [pts]

#61
Drizzt79

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Thoughts on this Corvus deployed Kill Team I drafted up? The idea is to have a team which has to be dealt with or they'll delete a unit a turn, but are tough to shift from shooting and will slaughter almost anything from overwatch. I'm using all 12 transport spots and all auto hitting weapons so they aren't reliant on having a character nearby, and can be beaconed out without leaving other units stranded.. Almost like *gasp* a kill team might really be!
[20 PL, 306pts]
Terminator w/ Heavy Weapon [3 PL, 52pts]
Selections: Heavy flamer [pts], Power sword [pts]
Vanguard Veteran [2 PL, 31pts]
Selections: Bolt Pistol [pts], Power fist [pts]
Veteran [2 PL, 19pts]
Selections: Chainsword, Deathwatch Shotgun [pts]
Veteran [2 PL, 19pts]
Selections: Chainsword, Deathwatch Shotgun [pts]
Veteran [2 PL, 24pts]
Selections: Deathwatch Shotgun [pts], Storm shield [pts]
Veteran [2 PL, 24pts]
Selections: Deathwatch Shotgun [pts], Storm shield [pts]
Veteran [2 PL, 24pts]
Selections: Deathwatch Shotgun [pts], Storm shield [pts]
Veteran w/ Heavy Weapon [2 PL, 41pts]
Selections: Deathwatch Frag Cannon [pts]
Veteran w/ Heavy Weapon [2 PL, 41pts]
Selections: Deathwatch Frag Cannon [pts]
Watch Sergeant [2 PL, 31pts]
Selections: Deathwatch Shotgun [pts], Power fist [pts]


Some thoughts,

Personally I don’t like the shotgun too much...the only advantage is the autohit on 8” but with S3, maybe adding another frag is more efficient.

I have a similar team with 3frags, 2termies, 4SS with boltguns, 1vanguard bolt pistol.
It is nice to have those 17 bolter shots wounding on 2+ (within 15”) ap-1 together with the 3 frag cannons :-)

One terminator alone will not last long against many ap0 wounds, 2 is better

Anyways even if this kill team is quite tough, it should not be the only distraction for your enemy.
Adding two mixed fortis kill teams, one with hallblasters+1plasma inceptor, and another one with assault weapons (aggressors and an inceptor), should do the job.

Deepstrike all in the face of the enemy together with a combimelta+meltafist terminator captain....avoid the corvus, too expensive for what it brings IMO.

#62
zero88

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The bolters are definitely better offensively, but I like the mass overwatch capabilities of the shotguns for this squad, especially With so many MSU squads rolling around. I was thinking the same thing about a second terminator, the only hard part is then you're only left with 6 veterans, and really only three meatshields. How do you deliver your similar KT? The Corvus isn't the best vehicle on it's own, but it's really the only viable Frag cannon delivery system we have. I plan on (2k pts) having one squad like this, a few gunline stalker squads, then fill out the rest with a mix of max dakka (storm Bolter or intergressor) squads and one teleporting plasma squad

#63
Lemondish

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The bolters are definitely better offensively, but I like the mass overwatch capabilities of the shotguns for this squad, especially With so many MSU squads rolling around. I was thinking the same thing about a second terminator, the only hard part is then you're only left with 6 veterans, and really only three meatshields. How do you deliver your similar KT? The Corvus isn't the best vehicle on it's own, but it's really the only viable Frag cannon delivery system we have. I plan on (2k pts) having one squad like this, a few gunline stalker squads, then fill out the rest with a mix of max dakka (storm Bolter or intergressor) squads and one teleporting plasma squad


I run this one (I'm sure I've posted it before, so sorry if it's here again):

- Veteran Sergeant with chainsword and storm bolter
- 3 Veterans with chainsword and storm bolters
- 2 Veterans with storm bolters and storm shields
- 2 Veterans with frag cannons
- 1 Terminator with storm bolter and power sword
- 1 Vanguard Veteran with two chainswords

Fits in a Corvus and brings the pain. I find frag cannons are enough for overwatch without giving up SIA. After all, what if you face Tau or Imperial Guard? They won't charge you anyway.
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#64
ashc

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The bolters are definitely better offensively, but I like the mass overwatch capabilities of the shotguns for this squad, especially With so many MSU squads rolling around. I was thinking the same thing about a second terminator, the only hard part is then you're only left with 6 veterans, and really only three meatshields. How do you deliver your similar KT? The Corvus isn't the best vehicle on it's own, but it's really the only viable Frag cannon delivery system we have. I plan on (2k pts) having one squad like this, a few gunline stalker squads, then fill out the rest with a mix of max dakka (storm Bolter or intergressor) squads and one teleporting plasma squad


I run this one (I'm sure I've posted it before, so sorry if it's here again):

- Veteran Sergeant with chainsword and storm bolter
- 3 Veterans with chainsword and storm bolters
- 2 Veterans with storm bolters and storm shields
- 2 Veterans with frag cannons
- 1 Terminator with storm bolter and power sword
- 1 Vanguard Veteran with two chainswords

Fits in a Corvus and brings the pain. I find frag cannons are enough for overwatch without giving up SIA. After all, what if you face Tau or Imperial Guard? They won't charge you anyway.

 

 

This squad looks great and is absolutely on my build list yes.gif



#65
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Yup, that Vet squad Lemondish posted is definitely my default as well.  So good.



#66
vigitant

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Keep in mind that anything with too strong an overwatch simply wont be charged by anything that can die from it.  Better, in my experience, to have just enough to make overwatch punishing.  Keep in mind anything charging from past 8" will negate most of your overwatch.  And if its that or die, assault armies will work around your flamers.  Charging from out of LoS, charging from +8", Eating the overwatch with a vehicle, negating the overwatch with a banshee autarch bike or smashguineus....

 

overwatch is simply not certain at all.  If your unit/army needs the opponent to work towards your plan to its own detriment...

 

it locks you into operating at 7-8" range to get full value.  Which puts your corvus in bad positions.  Close enough to deploy a frag unit next turn is close enough to get wrapped by infantry/bikes and shot down.  Then you lose the bird AND your expensive KT.  Even if they dont shoot it down, getting wrapped means your guys dont come out till turn 3.
This is a problem the corvus has regardless, and its exacerbated by close range units.

Also, if youre going to put a heavy melee weapon on the vanguard, give him a hammer.  d3 damage is lackluster compared to flat 3.
 

Pre-codex, the shottys always felt like a sideways shift from the SIA boltguns.  A sideways shift that was priced like an upgrade.  Now you can get SIA stormbolters.  Which ARE an upgrade.

Also, dont discount the overwatch of 8 SIA storm bolters.  My opponents keep doing that, and dying.


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#67
Lemondish

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Keep in mind that anything with too strong an overwatch simply wont be charged by anything that can die from it. Better, in my experience, to have just enough to make overwatch punishing. Keep in mind anything charging from past 8" will negate most of your overwatch. And if its that or die, assault armies will work around your flamers. Charging from out of LoS, charging from +8", Eating the overwatch with a vehicle, negating the overwatch with a banshee autarch bike or smashguineus....

overwatch is simply not certain at all. If your unit/army needs the opponent to work towards your plan to its own detriment...

it locks you into operating at 7-8" range to get full value. Which puts your corvus in bad positions. Close enough to deploy a frag unit next turn is close enough to get wrapped by infantry/bikes and shot down. Then you lose the bird AND your expensive KT. Even if they dont shoot it down, getting wrapped means your guys dont come out till turn 3.
This is a problem the corvus has regardless, and its exacerbated by close range units.

Also, if youre going to put a heavy melee weapon on the vanguard, give him a hammer. d3 damage is lackluster compared to flat 3.

Pre-codex, the shottys always felt like a sideways shift from the SIA boltguns. A sideways shift that was priced like an upgrade. Now you can get SIA stormbolters. Which ARE an upgrade.

Also, dont discount the overwatch of 8 SIA storm bolters. My opponents keep doing that, and dying.


Well said.

Part of me is sad the humble boltgun is just so outclassed by the storm bolter. For 3 points it's twice as powerful! Makes me wish the Deathwatch boltgun was a different profile from other astartes forces. For a company that seemed so hell bent on supporting codex wargear options only when they had a corresponding model in print, having the best basic SIA Veteran weapon not even come in the box is...painful.

That said, cat's out of the bag now. Aside from a points hike or the removal of the weapon from the SIA option list, the storm bolter is the new hotness. Would personally rather see options improve rather than seeing a fun good one reduced though, so hopefully there becomes a legitimate reason to carry boltguns and shotguns again.

Same goes for power weapons to an extent.
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#68
ashc

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It leaves me wondering if we'll see a points 'adjustment' on storm bolters in the future...

#69
Lemondish

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It leaves me wondering if we'll see a points 'adjustment' on storm bolters in the future...


That's possible. But I wouldn't be surprised if the storm bolter's efficacy on the board is why Veterans are in such a good place despite all the issues every vanilla marine body faces at their current cost. To mess with that without a corresponding shift elsewhere would be...ill advised.

Edited by Lemondish, 06 July 2018 - 10:34 PM.


#70
Black Orange

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Power swords can be game winners in certain situations - for example I was playing an opponent with Saint Celestine and had whittled her down to her very last wound - an Intercessor sergeant was able to get the long bomb charge and scored two wounds bumping her save from 2+ to 4+. She failed one which pretty much one me the game.



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#71
Lemondish

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Power swords can be game winners in certain situations - for example I was playing an opponent with Saint Celestine and had whittled her down to her very last wound - an Intercessor sergeant was able to get the long bomb charge and scored two wounds bumping her save from 2+ to 4+. She failed one which pretty much one me the game.

Not sure that's worth the points personally - they're always the first to go in my list building largely because I'm not eager to get vets into combat in general.

Might need to rethink that with more experience, though. Thanks for the example!

Edited by Lemondish, 06 July 2018 - 10:38 PM.

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#72
Black Orange

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Some times it is hard to avoid combat and a PS is only 4 points. 3 attacks at WS3 is decent in my book .



No one can beat my Wu Tang Sword Style!my 40k blog:

https://greenblowfly.../alan-seds.html - Terminus Est - Ultramarines 247
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Blood and Honor!

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#73
Lemondish

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Some times it is hard to avoid combat and a PS is only 4 points. 3 attacks at WS3 is decent in my book .


Maybe I'll equip the Sarge and any black shields with em if the points fit...thanks for the feedback!
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