Can Heed be used multiple times per turn?

[Capt. Mytre]

I'd argue it can. Also, if this works, so does the Finest Hour stratagem, but that's pretty bad stratagem.

 

Heed the Prog is used at the "start of your turn". This means it does not occur during "a phase". The matched play rule that limit Stratagem multiple usages says that "This does not affect Stratagems that are not used during a phase, such as those used ‘before the battle begins’ or ‘at the end of a battle round’".

 

Further more, this isn't part of the movement phase, as there are specifically GK stratagems that happen at the start of your movement phase (Tactical Flexibility).

 

Overall, I don't think it's particularly broken. Still an expensive stratagem that requires it to be used pre-emptively, while you have Guard strats that are cheaper (both in cost and as a percentage of average CP) that can be used reactively and boosts both armour and invuln saves, albeit after the FAQ only on infantry.

[Diagramdude]

From the Core Rules:

 

"Each turn consists of a series of phases, which must be resolved in order. The phases are as follows:
 

1.Movement phase

Move any units that are

capable of doing so.

 

2.Psychic phase..."

 

At the start of your turn, you are in the movement phase. There is no pre-phase step zero moment in time that exists in your turn before your movement phase. There are stratagems that occur during deployment or "before the first turn begins" and they can be spammed. But "at the start of your turn" you are in your movement phase.

[Capt. Mytre]

From the Core Rules:

 

"Each turn consists of a series of phases, which must be resolved in order. The phases are as follows:

 

1.Movement phase

Move any units that are

capable of doing so.

 

2.Psychic phase..."

 

At the start of your turn, you are in the movement phase. There is no pre-phase step zero moment in time that exists in your turn before your movement phase. There are stratagems that occur during deployment or "before the first turn begins" and they can be spammed. But "at the start of your turn" you are in your movement phase.

 

I've already addressed this, why the different wording for other abilities that happen specifically at the start of the movement phase? It's logical to assume that the different wording is intentional.

[Panzer]

Because GW is not necessarily consistent with their wording. I agree with Diagramdudes interpretation but do think it requires a FAQ entry to be 100% sure.

[Capt. Mytre]

Because GW is not necessarily consistent with their wording. I agree with Diagramdudes interpretation but do think it requires a FAQ entry to be 100% sure.

 

So it's rules as you've interpreted it over rules as written? Got it.

[Panzer]

No, it's rules as written as well because there is no point in time at the beginning of your turn before any phase. If anything, you're the one who's interpreting something into it.

[Capt. Mytre]

No, it's rules as written as well because there is no point in time at the beginning of your turn before any phase. If anything, you're the one who's interpreting something into it.

 

Uh, no. We're going in circles. Rules as written, if something happens at the start of the movement phase, it is stated so. We have evidence of this. Anything else is outside the phase.

 

While I think the intent could go either way, rules as written it only goes in favour of it.

[Panzer]

 

Anything else is outside the phase.

 

 

And there is where your interpretation part comes into play.

[Helycon]

Just because you want it doesn't make it so.

 

If there a pre turn phase, I would call it that. It's just wanting to bend the rules for Stratagems that makes you even ask the question.

 

I'm sure every single referee would rule against it.

[Diagramdude]

So you say "you addressed it"

 

"Heed the Prog is used at the "start of your turn". This means it does not occur during "a phase". "

 

I think that you think the "start of the turn" is before the movement phase begins. I guess we can argue metaphysics but when a turn is defined as "a series of phases" then the at the "start" of that series you are in phase 1

[Ninjoe42]

You kind of sound like a Magic the Gathering player lol. I'm gonna say no, no double Heeds per turn.

 

And on a side note I think double heed would be nigh on useless.

[Diagramdude]

Okay, here is the argument that the start of your turn is separate from the start of the movement phase.

 

The first sentence of the core rules Movement Phase section says:

 

"Start your Movement phase by picking one of your units and moving each model in that unit until you’ve moved all the models you want to"

 

So there is an argument to be made that you haven't started your movement phase until you move your first unit. For argument's sake, if you have a stratagem worded "At the start of your opponents movement phase..." you would play it once your opponent reaches to move his first model. If it was worded "At the start of your opponent's turn..." You would play it immediately after you end your turn and turn it over to him, or right after the completion of any pre first turn actions.

Because your movement phase has an event trigger, picking a unit and moving it, there is a start of your turn and then a start of your movement phase.

 

Until you pick a unit and move it, you have not started your movement phase. If you use a stratagem before you pick a unit and move it, you have played it before the movement phase. And therefore you are not restricted by the one per phase limit. 

 

This would only apply to stratagems worded "At the start of your turn" because stratagems that you use "At the start of your movement phase" obviously cannot be played before the movement phase starts.

 

Hypothetical example:

Grey Knight Troll: "Okay, I just seized the initiative and will take first turn."

 

Opponent: "Nuts."

 

Grey Knight Troll: "Hmm, I can't decide whether to move Voldus or Draigo first... or maybe this GMNDK. By the way, what phase are we in right now?

 

Opponent: "We will be in your first turn's movement phase once you pick a unit and move it. Please start your movement phase by picking and moving each model in that unit."

 

Grey Knight Troll "Ah yes will do. But first, I will spend six command points. I am using Heed the Prognosticars on Draigo, Voldus, and the GMNDK."

 

Opponent: "You can't do that more than once per phase."

Grey Knight Troll "My good man, I haven't decided which unit to move first. My movement phase has not yet begun. I am also now out of command points."

[Joukernaut]

As in every discussion there are arguments to be made for and against the subject. Apparently you are not really looking for feedback on the subject. No one here has yet agreed, has provided plausible feedback, yet you keep holding on to your own opinion as the right choice. If you really want to use it multiple times, you should just do so, because RAW there's no way stopping you from doing it. I don't think it would break the game either since it's very expensive CP wise.

You should however be prepared to run into resistance of your opponent and possibly ruin their fun in playing the game.

So far your own community has ruled against using it twice, so expect your opponent to do so as well.

Here's another argument against using heed the prognosticators twice.

Virtually every other stratagem that's been designed to be used multiple times are used before the battle has even started.

It is my personal opinion that every stratagem used during the battle, should be used no more than once every turn.

[Diagramdude]

Count me in the "you can use heed multiple times" camp

[Capt. Mytre]

See, I'd never actually try and use it. This was about what the rule is RAW, and noting just another poorly written rule by GW.

[Ninjoe42]

If you COULD use it more then once, would you be able to use it on the same character more then once?

[Soder]

“Use this stratagem at the start of your turn. Pick a Grey Knights Character and add 1 to its invulnerable saving throws until the start of your next turn”

 

Nothing in itself restricts stacking. Who wants to go sifting through the FAQs to find anything relevant? Lol. I’ve sent them feedback about it. Everyone should! 40kFAQ@gwplc.com

[TauFish]

You should try it in a game, I think it will be a short game, it will end the second you try that nonsense and your opponent walks away.

[Gaz1858]

As in every discussion there are arguments to be made for and against the subject. Apparently you are not really looking for feedback on the subject. No one here has yet agreed, has provided plausible feedback, yet you keep holding on to your own opinion as the right choice. If you really want to use it multiple times, you should just do so, because RAW there's no way stopping you from doing it. I don't think it would break the game either since it's very expensive CP wise.

You should however be prepared to run into resistance of your opponent and possibly ruin their fun in playing the game.

So far your own community has ruled against using it twice, so expect your opponent to do so as well.

Here's another argument against using heed the prognosticators twice.

Virtually every other stratagem that's been designed to be used multiple times are used before the battle has even started.

It is my personal opinion that every stratagem used during the battle, should be used no more than once every turn.

 

100% agree with the above. RAW yes you can use it multiple times. However I always go with the thought that if you are having to get into an RAI or RAW argument then you probably shouldn't be doing whatever it is you're trying to do.

 

Joukernauts point about the opponents enjoyment of the game is very valid and should be held paramount to any rules lawyering anyone intends to roll out in my opinion.

[Soder]

Do you guys know what FAQ the ruling for using stratagems multiple times can be found?

[Gaz1858]

BRB FAQ.