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40k was always (ALWAYS) marketed for the 8-10+ demographic


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#1
Reclusiarch Krieg

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http://www.belloflos...r-30-years.html

A lot of proof in the article here, gathered nicely together if you ever need to prove a point. The earliest game was marketed 8+, others fluctuated, but the bottom line was never higher than 10.

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#2
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Doesn't make those WH Adventure books any less lame.


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Yup but the adult who bought it ended up painting and playing. And the kid went back to his pukiemon cards.


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#4
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One of the things I think one of the things that people tend to get hung up on is that the books are for an average reading level of 8-12. Many people who started the hobby had a higher reading level then that when they started as they had already started down the path of the nerd. I read the Hobbit in third grade and played D&D, while my sister read Twilight at age 10 (because many of her friends were) as well as the Shining. Just because you read above your age bracket and we're exposed to more adult themes doesn't mean that these books aren't targeting the right age group or good for even younger readers.
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#5
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Doesn't make those WH Adventure books any less lame.

Says you. I think they're awesome.
 
 

Yup but the adult who bought it ended up painting and playing. And the kid went back to his pukiemon cards.

Oh wow, so now Pokemon is "badwrongfun" and "for the kidsies"? Kids never got to play their 40k, their parents played it?

What kind of reality do you actually live in?
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#6
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Why do I have the feeling that this thread will end in a flamewar and a lock?


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#7
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Doesn't make those WH Adventure books any less lame.


I'm really confused at why this even matters? Are you a child? Because theses books are only targeted at children so why does it matter if you think they are lame the child they are actually aimed at will probably have a completely different opinion

I really don't see the big deal GW will most likely sell these in other book stores ( since there more likely to sell there than in their actual GW stores), parents or kids will pick it up mainly for it's flashy cover. It may not get a large number of readers into the hobby but it will get a few who are curious about the setting and find out as they get older. Yes it won't be this magical "grimdark" certain wargammers whisper in hushed voices full of awe and expectation it's a kids book they have to tone it down to suit he audience

It won't stop GW releasing modes In the same style they have been, it won't change any of the current fluff (we all know how some people hate the fluff as it is for lack of "grimdark" :D ) no one here is actually going to be reading the book (unless you have kids) so why does it matter

Wow who knew a children's book could make a good portion of the community so toxic and negative to something that isn't even aimed at them pretty childish really :D
Really going to be funny once the book is out as there is bound to be some pathetic person buy it solely so they release a angry video review moaning about how GW is ruining the hobby :D
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#8
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Why do I have the feeling that this thread will end in a flamewar and a lock?


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#9
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Doesn't make those WH Adventure books any less lame.


I'm really confused at why this even matters? Are you a child? Because theses books are only targeted at children so why does it matter if you think they are lame the child they are actually aimed at will probably have a completely different opinion

 

You know, as much as I like to poke fun at these silly books, I don't want my snark to be mistaken for vitriol. It's just that the article in the OP proves that GW is (or was) capable of making much more interesting stuff targeted at the same age group - which probably wasn't the intent of the author.

 

And let's be real, if those books didn't have Warhammer in the title, nobody would look at them and say "this would make great addition to the setting!", which is why that BOLS article comes off as forced.


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#10
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I really think it's time that we all as a collective community realize that this isn't an attempt to get kids involved in a hobby for adults, but that we are largely a bunch of adults with a hobby we love that is really intended for children and teenagers. Once you come to terms with that, suddenly pretty much everything GW starts to make a whole lot more sense...
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#11
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I really think it's time that we all as a collective community realize that this isn't an attempt to get kids involved in a hobby for adults, but that we are largely a bunch of adults with a hobby we love that is really intended for children and teenagers. Once you come to terms with that, suddenly pretty much everything GW starts to make a whole lot more sense...

This. The same thing with the cries of "infantile", "cartoonish", "comic book like" levied towards new sculpts, AoS, studio paintjobs, etc.

If this hobby is "cartoonish" for you and that's a problem - I got bad news. You got old.
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#12
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I think these books are great for getting little ones involved and using 40k as a great vehicle to teach life lessons. I cant wait to sit down and play with my kids. I think the idea that 40k has always been for kids is absolutely wrong, given the literature has omnipresent bodyhorror and the old (read better) art emphasized adult/horror themes. 

 

 

It doesn't need to be a polarized topic. It's already a factory for the funniest memes in years. 


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#13
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I for one got into miniatures with Citadel and Ral Partha D&D miniatures at age 9 in 1985, started rpgs with D&D in 86, then got Adeptus Titanicus age 13. During that time period I'd read C.S. Lewis and Tolkien, Pick-A-Path and Fighting Fantasy, Bradbury and Asimov, Heinlein and Herbert, the D&D pick a path books and the Rose Estes D&D novels.

So I got into the hobby in the age bracket discussed. And I was reading kids books and much more mature stuff. I played most of the linked GW games, many as a teen, and I'm still in the hobby today.

#14
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Space Sharks is a serious adulty name
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#15
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Not sure what the point of the thread is, other than to bait people who dislike the Warhammer Adventure books.

 

And yes, I also think they're lame. However, I'm not the raging manchild that seems to have rapidly become the go-to stereotype of people whom dislike these books. I dislike them not because they're for kids, but because they look like they're gonna have pretty generic art and characters. I've been a fan of Warhammer Fantasy and 40k nearly my entire life, and I played my first game before I was 10. But I liked Warhammer because it was so different than all the other stuff I'd encountered as a kid. And as people so adroitly pointed out above, all that original dystopian, iconic material was still considered appropriate for teens and children. So when I see this obvious flanderization of the setting (which already admittedly appeals to children) in order to...further appeal to a demographic for whom it is supposedly designed, I question the wisdom of such a decision. Not from a "children come to take my toys!" but from a "children may find these toys forgettable and lame." The artwork in particular just seems absolutely generic and uninspired, like something from a crap anime.

 

For what it's worth, I think the background has been moving away from the grittier, more dystopian themes for a while, and I think it's entirely valid for existing fans to see these books as further proof of a setting they enjoy changing into something they might dislike. Poking fun at people because a hobby and setting they enjoy (and have spent typically thousands of dollars/pounds, and hundreds, if not thousands, of hours upon) is changing into something they dislike strikes me as rather uncouth. I will not speak out in support of some of the obviously inappropriate reactions fans have had, but I've certainly see a great deal of toxicity and rather hateful "neener neener, doesn't it hurt, fanboy?" reactions from people who frankly seem to enjoy their fellow fans' discomfort far more than they enjoy the prospect of these books.

 

I've seen it here, on other forums, on Facebook, and on reddit. Quite unbecoming, but I suppose hypocrisy is the second most common element in the universe.


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#16
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Hey dudes I'm getting old senile and bitter! Where's my Black Templars you damn brats?!? And get off my lawn!

Jokes aside, while I can not particularly enjoy Warhammer adventures, because I don't like the concept they are releasing, the memes have been gold. It is a thing that I will ignore.
I just think that 12 year old kids these days are exposed to worse depictions of violence in other forms of media, than Warhammer.

And as a paying costumer and not a shill that gets free stuff, I will moan and complain about products I don't like. :P

Edited by Sete, 26 May 2018 - 09:14 AM.

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#17
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I do think that kids can stomach way more than adults these days give them credit for, however I really don't mind such harmless stuff being produced for children either. I know that I wouldn't have cared much for it as child but I was always drawn to the more darker and serious stories anyway (blame my elementary school teacher who told us adult horror stories from time to time lol) but there are kids who don't like such stuff and will happily embrace Warhammer Adventures instead.


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If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

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#18
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I had no problem with Warhammer Adventures, in fact I was looking forward to Attack of the Necrons, but after that article...I actually understand our Brothers who have a problem with it.  I think it was completely unintentional, but the BoLS post really pointed out a flaw with what we've seen so far of Warhammer Adventures.

 

I think the issue here was best summed up by a comic book writer describing the challenge of his medium as it should be: child-LIKE, NOT childish.

 

It's a subtle but significant distinction, and I think it's relevant here.  The line between the two is blurry AND different for each person...and let's all agree that we all got older because we're not Perpetuals...but I think those that dislike Warhammer Adventures so far have found it childish, not child-like.  And I'm seeing it too, now.

 

it's because I saw the art for Warhammer Adventures (which looked nice, I was cool with it), THEN I looked back at the Space Crusade cover.

 

Both of those were aiming at young Hobbyists, that's no problem and is perfectly natural, so that they can grow up to be old Hobbyists; it's the circle of life.  But I definitely get the sense now, after comparing, that Warhammer Adventures looks like it's talking down to kids, whereas Space Crusade looks like it's saying, "You're young, but I have faith you can handle this, so I'll treat you as a grown-up, here's your Bolter."  Therein lies the difference between childish and child-like, I think.

 

Btw, just so it's clear, I'm not arguing for 1 side or the other, I'm just saying, I'm totally starting to see that other point of view.

 

+++++

 

The article actually has a flaw in its examples, though.  The games it listed were all entry-level games.

 

Hero Quest and Space Crusade were a partnership between Games Workshop and boardgame Milton Bradley, who could insert their products into toy stores, so of course they would design them for the broadest age range possible, including young children.  That is by design.

 

The other example cited was Space Fleet, which was purely Games Workshop.  The issue here was it was part of a series that were a simpler version of existing games meant for newer or younger players.  I had Ultramarine, which was like super-light version of Space Hulk.  There was also Ker~runch, which was Blood Bowl-lite.  There was also a Hero Quest-lite game.

 

So in trying to prove those games were meant for young children, the article pointed to games designed for them.  That was the whole point of them.

 

+++++

 

But there's 1 thing I'm staying mindful of: these Warhammer Adventures aren't made for me, NOR even the 10 year-old version of me.  They're for someone else.

 

If I was 10 years old today getting into the Hobby now, I'd probably be fascinated by the Horus Heresy novels.  Many of us would be, as I think that's the age many of us read Lord of the Rings for the 1st time and that was not an easy book.  So GW wouldn't have to make a new line of Warhammer Adventures for someone like a young version of me (or you, for that matter).

 

But I'm wondering if there were potential Hobbyists around the time I was a kid that got turned off by the grimdark back then.  I always saw the humour in the grimdark, but it probably didn't appeal to other kids who may prefer their Dan Abnett books more like Guardians of the Galaxy than The Unremembered Empire.

 

It also happens I'm totally cool with it.  I'm really curious how the novels will turn out and will buy at least the 1st one.

 

+++++

 

So 3 points: I actually can see why people dislike WhA now, I think the article had a slight fallacy, and I don't think WhA was meant for me, past or present, but I'm cool with that.


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#19
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I had no problem with Warhammer Adventures, in fact I was looking forward to Attack of the Necrons, but after that article...I actually understand our Brothers who have a problem with it. I think it was completely unintentional, but the BoLS post really pointed out a flaw with what we've seen so far of Warhammer Adventures.

I think the issue here was best summed up by a comic book writer describing the challenge of his medium as it should be: child-LIKE, NOT childish.

It's a subtle but significant distinction, and I think it's relevant here. The line between the two is blurry AND different for each person...and let's all agree that we all got older because we're not Perpetuals...but I think those that dislike Warhammer Adventures so far have found it childish, not child-like. And I'm seeing it too, now.

it's because I saw the art for Warhammer Adventures (which looked nice, I was cool with it), THEN I looked back at the Space Crusade cover.

Both of those were aiming at young Hobbyists, that's no problem and is perfectly natural, so that they can grow up to be old Hobbyists; it's the circle of life. But I definitely get the sense now, after comparing, that Warhammer Adventures looks like it's talking down to kids, whereas Space Crusade looks like it's saying, "You're young, but I have faith you can handle this, so I'll treat you as a grown-up, here's your Bolter." Therein lies the difference between childish and child-like, I think.

Btw, just so it's clear, I'm not arguing for 1 side or the other, I'm just saying, I'm totally starting to see that other point of view.

+++++

The article actually has a flaw in its examples, though. The games it listed were all entry-level games.

Hero Quest and Space Crusade were a partnership between Games Workshop and boardgame Milton Bradley, who could insert their products into toy stores, so of course they would design them for the broadest age range possible, including young children. That is by design.

The other example cited was Space Fleet, which was purely Games Workshop. The issue here was it was part of a series that were a simpler version of existing games meant for newer or younger players. I had Ultramarine, which was like super-light version of Space Hulk. There was also Ker~runch, which was Blood Bowl-lite. There was also a Hero Quest-lite game.

So in trying to prove those games were meant for young children, the article pointed to games designed for them. That was the whole point of them.

+++++

But there's 1 thing I'm staying mindful of: these Warhammer Adventures aren't made for me, NOR even the 10 year-old version of me. They're for someone else.

If I was 10 years old today getting into the Hobby now, I'd probably be fascinated by the Horus Heresy novels. Many of us would be, as I think that's the age many of us read Lord of the Rings for the 1st time and that was not an easy book. So GW wouldn't have to make a new line of Warhammer Adventures for someone like a young version of me (or you, for that matter).

But I'm wondering if there were potential Hobbyists around the time I was a kid that got turned off by the grimdark back then. I always saw the humour in the grimdark, but it probably didn't appeal to other kids who may prefer their Dan Abnett books more like Guardians of the Galaxy than The Unremembered Empire.

It also happens I'm totally cool with it. I'm really curious how the novels will turn out and will buy at least the 1st one.

+++++

So 3 points: I actually can see why people dislike WhA now, I think the article had a slight fallacy, and I don't think WhA was meant for me, past or present, but I'm cool with that.


It’s a BoLS article and entirely wrong so it’s not just one fallacy :D
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#20
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I do think that kids can stomach way more than adults these days give them credit for, however I really don't mind such harmless stuff being produced for children either. I know that I wouldn't have cared much for it as child but I was always drawn to the more darker and serious stories anyway (blame my elementary school teacher who told us adult horror stories from time to time lol) but there are kids who don't like such stuff and will happily embrace Warhammer Adventures instead.


I don't know if it reached the US, but the Edge Chronicles series I read at the age of twelve had disembowelings, hearts being torn out and eaten etc.

#21
sfPanzer

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I do think that kids can stomach way more than adults these days give them credit for, however I really don't mind such harmless stuff being produced for children either. I know that I wouldn't have cared much for it as child but I was always drawn to the more darker and serious stories anyway (blame my elementary school teacher who told us adult horror stories from time to time lol) but there are kids who don't like such stuff and will happily embrace Warhammer Adventures instead.


I don't know if it reached the US, but the Edge Chronicles series I read at the age of twelve had disembowelings, hearts being torn out and eaten etc.
Dunno I'm not from the US either. ^^

Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

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#22
Lay

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I think the issue here was best summed up by a comic book writer describing the challenge of his medium as it should be: child-LIKE, NOT childish.
 
It's a subtle but significant distinction, and I think it's relevant here.  The line between the two is blurry AND different for each person...and let's all agree that we all got older because we're not Perpetuals...but I think those that dislike Warhammer Adventures so far have found it childish, not child-like.  And I'm seeing it too, now.
 
it's because I saw the art for Warhammer Adventures (which looked nice, I was cool with it), THEN I looked back at the Space Crusade cover.
 
Both of those were aiming at young Hobbyists, that's no problem and is perfectly natural, so that they can grow up to be old Hobbyists; it's the circle of life.  But I definitely get the sense now, after comparing, that Warhammer Adventures looks like it's talking down to kids, whereas Space Crusade looks like it's saying, "You're young, but I have faith you can handle this, so I'll treat you as a grown-up, here's your Bolter."  Therein lies the difference between childish and child-like, I think.
 
Btw, just so it's clear, I'm not arguing for 1 side or the other, I'm just saying, I'm totally starting to see that other point of view.

I hope I can elaborate on that as I've read my fair share of books below my age range. Among other things, I used to be big time into Star Wars, and being a lore hound I read multiple series of YA-adult books (including some really weird, seemingly un-Star Warsy stuff that I still hold dear). To this day I still recommend Jude Watson's Jedi Padawan books to people because I think they're legitimately well written books.

 

And that's one of the hallmarks of good YA-fiction: being aimed at a younger audience isn't necessarily a limitation. Ideally, such books can tackle almost as many topics as "grown up" literature, the only distinction being that the author knows how to present the topics in a relatable and appropriate fashion for a younger audience (granted, you do have to simplify things the younger your audience is).

At worst however such books will try to play it safe and coddle their audience which is just doing things the easy way. And sadly that seems to be the type of book the WH Adventure books are going be (granted again, it's all based on what we've been shown so far).

 

It looks like GW tried so hard to simplify things for their intended audience, that they might have ended up subverting what distinguishes their IP from others. Since 40k fiction tries its hardest to be darker, louder, grimier and nastier than other settings (whether it be played for laughs or straight), the books look like outright parodies of the setting.

 

And I think that's the source of much of the mockery: They've made a product that's meant to be a gateway to the setting and hobby but looks like it could pass as a parody in any other context.

 

But there's 1 thing I'm staying mindful of: these Warhammer Adventures aren't made for me, NOR even the 10 year-old version of me.  They're for someone else.
 
If I was 10 years old today getting into the Hobby now, I'd probably be fascinated by the Horus Heresy novels.  Many of us would be, as I think that's the age many of us read Lord of the Rings for the 1st time and that was not an easy book.  So GW wouldn't have to make a new line of Warhammer Adventures for someone like a young version of me (or you, for that matter).

Interesting point and I think even the positive reception of the books reflects this. I've seen plenty of people say that they can't wait to get them for their children, yet barely anyone saying anything along the lines of how something like that should have been around when they themselves got into the hobby.

Spoiler


Edited by Lay, 26 May 2018 - 10:30 AM.

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#23
Doghouse

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Not sure what the point of the thread is, other than to bait people who dislike the Warhammer Adventure books.

 

 

Same thing with that BoLS article in the link.


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#24
Grieux

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Calm down dudes, this is a good initiative. I'm a father of three and nowadays you just CAN'T try to market to kids grimdark as they did to us. There'd be an outcry, public backlash et al.

Remember we're not in the eighties anymore? Good.

Now think of them as a gateway drug to the true grimdark, helping a new generation one step at a time until they're in the hobby in a full blown terrible dark setting where there is only war.

It's genius.

#25
deathspectersgt7

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Doesn't make those WH Adventure books any less lame.

Says you. I think they're awesome.
 
 

Yup but the adult who bought it ended up painting and playing. And the kid went back to his pukiemon cards.

Oh wow, so now Pokemon is "badwrongfun" and "for the kidsies"? Kids never got to play their 40k, their parents played it?

What kind of reality do you actually live in?

 

no.gif Guess your reading Comprehension is off this morning . Never implied anything . Being the ADULT who bought the game for a 8 yr old after hearing please please  I want I want . To after a month of sitting in his room with the plastic still on the box and showing no interest in it .  


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