Black Templars as Space Wolves, A transformation, and Why?

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I had a first experiment with a Wolf Templar lost yesterday. It was interesting, but I definitely need to play with the units more as I forgot to use loads of buffs.

 

I took three Blood Claw squads, 1x10 man, 1x9 man and 1x14. Armed variously. I took Neophyte models paid for as full Claws to make up numbers. The smaller squads were in Rhinos, the large one in a Land Raider Crusader. I took 5 Vanguard Veteran models as Wulfen, 4 with hammers and shields, one with claws. To round off the battalion I took a Lieutenant equivalent and a Wolf Priest.

 

I also took a battalion of real Templars, 3 small faux Devi squads, a Marshal, Ironclad and the champion.

 

I have to admit I didn't use the units as well as I could. My opponent (Thousand Sons) took first turn, he then smashed a 20 man group of Tzangors straight across the board, moving them twice using some sort of Witchery and then charged the Wulfen. I had placed the Wulfen in the centre of the line, hoping to get the most out of their ridiculous buffs. The 20 Tzangors combined with a lot of shooting and more witchery wiped out the Wulfen, they then consolidated into combat with my damned LRC, (I really hate my LRC these days,)

I disembarked the Blood Claws and they wiped out the Tzangors with ease really. But with the Wulfen down and the LRC not lasting the second turn (thanks to a Sicaran and a lot of Psychic attacks.) The centre was torn out of my army. The Blood Claws and Rhinos had a stab at charging a squad of Rubricae each, but did almost no damage (due to those dusty boys being hard as nails!)

 

Takeaways: The basic principle is good. 9 blood claw crusaders could lay down a lot of attacks on the charge with their bonuses even without the Wulfen Kill bonuses. It felt like Templars used to do, lots of blokes, crucially with lots of attacks.

I forgot loads of the buffs too, like the Wolf Priests healing ability and the Wulfen's 5+ feel no pain rolls, (I really regret those in particular.)

[JadedMask]

I had a first experiment with a Wolf Templar lost yesterday. It was interesting, but I definitely need to play with the units more as I forgot to use loads of buffs.

 

I took three Blood Claw squads, 1x10 man, 1x9 man and 1x14. Armed variously. I took Neophyte models paid for as full Claws to make up numbers. The smaller squads were in Rhinos, the large one in a Land Raider Crusader. I took 5 Vanguard Veteran models as Wulfen, 4 with hammers and shields, one with claws. To round off the battalion I took a Lieutenant equivalent and a Wolf Priest.

 

I also took a battalion of real Templars, 3 small faux Devi squads, a Marshal, Ironclad and the champion.

 

I have to admit I didn't use the units as well as I could. My opponent (Thousand Sons) took first turn, he then smashed a 20 man group of Tzangors straight across the board, moving them twice using some sort of Witchery and then charged the Wulfen. I had placed the Wulfen in the centre of the line, hoping to get the most out of their ridiculous buffs. The 20 Tzangors combined with a lot of shooting and more witchery wiped out the Wulfen, they then consolidated into combat with my damned LRC, (I really hate my LRC these days,)

I disembarked the Blood Claws and they wiped out the Tzangors with ease really. But with the Wulfen down and the LRC not lasting the second turn (thanks to a Sicaran and a lot of Psychic attacks.) The centre was torn out of my army. The Blood Claws and Rhinos had a stab at charging a squad of Rubricae each, but did almost no damage (due to those dusty boys being hard as nails!)

 

Takeaways: The basic principle is good. 9 blood claw crusaders could lay down a lot of attacks on the charge with their bonuses even without the Wulfen Kill bonuses. It felt like Templars used to do, lots of blokes, crucially with lots of attacks.

I forgot loads of the buffs too, like the Wolf Priests healing ability and the Wulfen's 5+ feel no pain rolls, (I really regret those in particular.)

Here is the list I've been running with decent success.

 

 

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Space Wolves) [88 PL, 1211pts] ++

 

+ HQ +

 

Wolf Priest [5 PL, 75pts]: Bolt pistol

 

Wolf Priest in Terminator Armour [8 PL, 107pts]: Storm bolter

 

+ Troops +

 

Grey Hunters [9 PL, 120pts]

. Grey Hunter Pack Leader: Power sword

. 3x Grey Hunter w/Bolt Pistol

. Grey Hunter with Special Weapon: Bolt Pistol, Plasma gun

. Wolf Guard Pack Leader in Terminator Armour: Frost sword, Storm shield

 

Grey Hunters [9 PL, 120pts]

. Grey Hunter Pack Leader: Power sword

. 3x Grey Hunter w/Bolt Pistol

. Grey Hunter with Special Weapon: Bolt Pistol, Plasma gun

. Wolf Guard Pack Leader in Terminator Armour: Frost sword, Storm shield

 

Grey Hunters [9 PL, 120pts]

. Grey Hunter Pack Leader: Power sword

. 3x Grey Hunter w/Bolt Pistol

. Grey Hunter with Special Weapon: Bolt Pistol, Plasma gun

. Wolf Guard Pack Leader in Terminator Armour: Frost sword, Storm shield

 

+ Elites +

 

Wolf Scouts [4 PL, 55pts]

. Wolf Scout: Boltgun

. Wolf Scout: Boltgun

. Wolf Scout: Boltgun

. Wolf Scout: Boltgun

. Wolf Scout Pack Leader: Bolt pistol, Boltgun

 

Wolf Scouts [4 PL, 55pts]

. Wolf Scout: Boltgun

. Wolf Scout: Boltgun

. Wolf Scout: Boltgun

. Wolf Scout: Boltgun

. Wolf Scout Pack Leader: Bolt pistol, Boltgun

 

Wulfen [26 PL, 280pts]

. 2x Great frost axe

. 3x Thunder hammer & Stormshield: 3x Storm Shield, 3x Thunder Hammer

. 5x Wulfen

. Wulfen Pack Leader: Frost claws

 

+ Flyer +

 

Stormwolf [14 PL, 279pts]: Twin helfrost cannon

. Two Lascannons: 2x Lascannon

. Two Twin Heavy Bolters: 2x Twin heavy bolter

 

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Space Wolves) [54 PL, 788pts] ++

 

+ HQ +

 

Arjac Rockfist [7 PL, 145pts]

 

Bjorn the Fell-handed [14 PL, 267pts]: Heavy flamer, Twin lascannon

 

+ Troops +

 

Blood Claws [11 PL, 134pts]

. 6x Blood Claw

. Blood Claw Pack Leader: Power axe

. Wolf Guard Pack Leader in Terminator Armour: Frost sword, Storm shield

 

Blood Claws [11 PL, 121pts]

. 5x Blood Claw

. Blood Claw Pack Leader: Power axe

. Wolf Guard Pack Leader in Terminator Armour: Frost sword, Storm shield

 

Blood Claws [11 PL, 121pts]

. 5x Blood Claw

. Blood Claw Pack Leader: Power axe

. Wolf Guard Pack Leader in Terminator Armour: Frost sword, Storm shield

 

++ Total: [142 PL, 1999pts] ++

 

Created with BattleScribe (https://battlescribe.net)

 

Basically, The 3 grey hunters and the larger squad of blood claws move up the field with the 4 HQs, while the plane swoops in with two more units of blood claws in tow, the wulfen move up and try to set up a good charge, and facesmashing ensues. my only issue is that my wulfen tend to get focused and killed, so i might put them "on the hunt" to make sure they make it to combat.

[Karack Blackstone]

Hello, from a fellow player, to the discussion that I have only read page one of, I just wanted to type up my personal opinion on this subject.

 

Black Templars needing to use Space Wolves rules to feel like they should is an indication to me that the core premise of one of GW's most unique Space Marine Chapters is lost on the current edition rules writers, at this time.

 

As far as your army, your rules, your models, by all means, play to have fun; that typed, and I do not presume you are guilty of violating this tenet: keep to your vows, in whatever way you feel is not breaking said vows. As a Wolf player, and as a fellow Astartes player at that, please remember that, despite the rules difference, remain a Black Templar in oath, vow, and conduct. If you feel, OP, that the only way to do so is to use a different Chapter's rules, well, by all means, please go with the suggestion from a Moderator on page one of clean it up, and send it to Games Workshop.

 

Above all, you, and only you, decide what you find fun. There will be those that will have the full range of support, indifference, and indignation, among others, towards your suggestion.

 

Again, you and you alone decide what you and your army use to represent your army and your oaths on the table; I expect GW might honestly need to see from apparently both GK And BT players why they think that their armies in each case are somehow not fluffy, and why, when that premise is what appears to be the entire idea behind 8th Edition.

 

Just food for thought, and take as one will.

 

Be well, good luck and, above all, have fun.

[Sete]

Should this thread be at the SW forum?

Cause it's a knife across my heart everytime I see this in the top discussion.

 

Don't take this the wrong way, but maybe SW players will give better advice about running with their codex.

[Karack Blackstone]

Should this thread be at the SW forum?

Cause it's a knife across my heart everytime I see this in the top discussion.

 

Don't take this the wrong way, but maybe SW players will give better advice about running with their codex.

 

While a Mod would best answer this, if I were the OP, I'd message the BT Mod's and ask if I should start a thread in the SW subsection and just let the Mod's decide if this topic should be moved or merged as needed.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I'm happy with it here.

[JadedMask]

Should this thread be at the SW forum?

Cause it's a knife across my heart everytime I see this in the top discussion.

 

Don't take this the wrong way, but maybe SW players will give better advice about running with their codex.

This was and is a discussion on using Space Wolves, but more blanketly, alternative rules than the given ones to represent ones Black Templars force. Sorry you don't like seeing it but I don't think it belongs on the Space Wolf forum, the tactics and tutorial stuff is not the intention of this discussion, just a slight aside.

[Schlitzaf]

If that puppy list is anything like your Templars list, the reason you are failing is that unrelenting terrible. A competent player will run circles around. It comes off as list based on what is ‘good’ but a demonstrable failure to understand why what is is good is good.

 

1) Your MSU Squads are terrible. MSU Squads are primarily meant for two roles (beside Tax Fill):

-Efficient Deployment of Weaponry in a concentrated package

-Anchoring a backfield force (Devies or Faux Devi for Templars, and Long Fangs)

MSU are outright terrible as melee units. If I saw that unit coming out, I’d just gun it down with bolters. You need to fail 12 2+, saves for the Wolfgaurd but you are only moving 5+1d6 advance each turn. That means you lack initiative. Remember what I said about MSU? Efficient deployment of package. Your wolf gaurd terminators mean no Razors which means footwalking. On average by turn 2, you will have only cross 13”-14” If your requiring as 9”-10” (or 10”-11” distance) successful charge. Compared to Templars who crossed 15-16” whom only requiring at 7”-8” (9”-10” distance). That means you have to withstand another turn of shooting without reliably able to reroll.

 

Second PlasmaGuns, let us return, efficienct deployment of damage. Running Plasma in a melee equipped unit is terrible. You will lack opportunities to utilize it. You have 3 Plasma shots in Rapid. But without advancing you will only be 10”. That means it won’t be till turn 3 till you can rapid. Your better off taking either flamers or meltaguns which can actually be utilized. Either defensively or offensively. Flames Espacially are good for reception of charge which for a foot army, you’ll not be one dictating the battle, you’ll be dictated. Plasmas by nature are Weapons that require you have initiative, if your a melee groundpound force. Sense you have to surrender the ability to advance to use it.

 

Now are Plasmas more efficient than Flamers? Yes. But they are for a mobile firefight list that can quickly and rapidly deploy into rapid. Razorspam lists work with Plasma because Razors protect the MSU contents and move Plasma into rapid range turn 1.

 

Your Templar list you posted a few weeks ago has all these same issues. While perhaps a little less because the 2+\2W Wolfgaurd, who can tank. The blatant reality is this list will have the same core issues. Now you can mention that you won’t have wolf guard in front. But that could easily result in a terminator being out of position during combat. Which is role confusion. Which is bad. If he is there to tank, don’t waste points on a power weapon.

 

Now following this, you have once again another issue with your list, the basket train. The Stormwolf is holding a large number of toys. Worse it’s the only target for anti-tank. Which if you don’t take first it will be destroyed or crippled turn 1. Beside Bjorn who cannot be targeted turn one anyways. Then you have the Wulfen Star.

 

The Wulfen Star is a redeeming factor as you have two ways to deploy, the wolf or outflanking. Additionally no role confusion, a proper mix of weaponry. But if you on the hunt your Wulfen, you will likely be further out of position for your Blood Claws and Grey Hunters.

 

But rest of your list is skimping everywhere, from the MSU, Wolf Scouts and more. Or an awful role confusion. You lack functional anchors, so backfield objectives will require you wasting squads. Your ability to project and engage turn two is lackluster.

 

That means you have two turns of enemy shooting to endure. Further your MSU Squads will be destroyed. And the blood claws have large attacks, are only meddling damage, without rerolls or reliable Wulfen. All that said; if this list is a list having success with, good for you. But is it a better Templar melee list? Not a chance.

 

It has a better alpha when things line up just right. But Templars have always had a weak alpha. While we lost an attack on the charge. I said this before, raise your hand if you ever made every model in combat? You didn’t. You made maybe 5-8. So out of 14 Man Squad, by time it’s your turn again you lose 5-7. You get 6 pistol shots (I.e same number you would had have, if you had +1 attack on charge).

 

Really bluntly put, the reason your Templar list failed is because that list is bad. The SW lists works better under the same style list because what made that list bad is less salient here.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

No. Punches. Pulled.

[Othniel's Blade]

Wow. An experiment didn't work. Well worth the lecture.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I don't even understand the lecture. JadedMask says he's been doing pretty well with that list, so it can hardly be fairly described as 'unrelentingly terrible.'

[Karack Blackstone]

After having read the proposed SW list, being used as counts-as BT's, I have some advice, and, considering it might just be bad, so be it.

 

I personally do not like MSU, because with so few models, the odds of facing, and failing, morale tests is significantly greater than running 10 and 15 man units. Don't get me wrong, MSU can be used to flesh out a list; the problem is, more to the point, the current morale phase rules do not permit Astartes to be as reliable as they once were.

 

Here's a sample list, and yes, it is likely bad.

 

HQ:

- WP, stock

 

Elites:

- Wulfen, 8 to 10; I don't know this unit very well, but, I hear they are great. As far as fluff, I don't like the effect the Wulfen have on normal SW's; as always, your army, your way.

 

Troops:

- GH's, 10; WGPL, gear to choice; Rhino

- GH's, 10; WGPL, gear to choice; Rhino

- BC's, 15; WGPL, gear to choice, WP and this pack go into a LRC, listed under HS

 

Fast Attack:

- Maybe TWC; once the Wolves Codex comes out, TWC should be back in the scary category.

 

Heavy Support:

- Land Raider Crusader, stock, additional gear to choice

- Long Fangs, 6; LFPL, 5 LF's; 5 ML's if possible, HB's are pretty solid when points pinching

 

Once again, just advice.

 

Grey Hunters, with BG, BP, and CSwd are, overall, the most well rounded and combat effective loyalist side line infantry amongst the Astartes, in the game, overall. Yes, Guard have numbers; for the guys in PA, though, GH's are really well off. They lack a Heavy Weapon, but can take two Special Ranged weapons; the pack on the whole has access to a maximum of two Special Melee weapons, as well. Played well, a large base of Grey Hunters won't hurt you, once you learn how you best use them.

 

As far as footslogging, to me at least, Transports not only increase overall mobility, but, permit more bodies to make it to the enemy when and where needed, overall.

 

The LRC, or, Land Raider Crusader, is an iconic BT unit; as I recall from the fluff, the BT's made the pattern. So, why not consider using one, with a massive PA unit of Sword Brethren, or, in this case, warriors so zealous they don't care about shooting and just want to mess something's face up, while in said things face?

 

Overall, Wulfen or, if they ever return to being solid units, WG TDA, need to be in the list to bear the brunt of the melee fighting; the problem is, getting them in, or, getting them shot so the rest of your army can do its job.

 

On the fliers, they are sadly quite lackluster in terms of being a transport, as, in the current rules, the soonest one will show up is what, turn two? And even then, it's a roll.

 

Still, I'm sure better people at making 8th Edition lists will be along eventually; do realize, the GH is a solid line infantryman. The problem is, if you don't like them, then don't use them. The rub is, however, that if used properly and well, a GH will carry the day in ways Codex-compliant Astartes might not; also, there are as always, tradeoffs.

 

As always, this is all advice and food for thought; if you want to keep your current list, do so.

[USNCenturion]

A list with grey hunters in it should really be in the Space Wolf forum me thinks.

[Panzer]

 

I personally do not like MSU, because with so few models, the odds of facing, and failing, morale tests is significantly greater than running 10 and 15 man units. Don't get me wrong, MSU can be used to flesh out a list; the problem is, more to the point, the current morale phase rules do not permit Astartes to be as reliable as they once were.

 

 

You got that kinda backwards.

Small units are just as likely to fail morale tests as big units. Actually if you think about it they're less likely. Why? Easy, because if your 5 man unit and your 10 man unit suffer 4 casualties each both have the same chance to suffer casualties by morale tests. However since your 5 man unit is extremely crippled now and would get wiped with a failed test anyway your opponent doesn't need to pay it much attention anymore while he can still shoot at your 10 man unit (now 6) to increase the chance to make you fail your morale test and suffer additional damage without him having to start from scratch as he would if he were to focus on a second 5 man unit next.

Even more obvious if your opponent would do lets say 6 damage to the unit. The 5 man unit is wiped with 5 casualties in total. Your 10 man unit is still there but with 6 casualties in total PLUS has the chance to fail the morale test and suffer even more casualties. Same amount of efford from the opponent but way more damage against the 10 man unit than against the 5 man unit.

It gets worse the bigger the unit is since once you pass the threshold of where you're expected to fail your morale test each additional killed model counts as two killed models bascially.

 

The whole thing about MSU is to mitigate damage and to fill detachments (and to maximize the amount of special weapons in your army but that's too unit specific).

 

EDIT: grammar 

 

A list with grey hunters in it should really be in the Space Wolf forum me thinks.

 

Once it enters "what's a good SW list" I agree, but as long as it's "how can I represent Black Templar with a SW list" it's fine to be here imo.

[JadedMask]

If that puppy list is anything like your Templars list, the reason you are failing is that unrelenting terrible. A competent player will run circles around. It comes off as list based on what is ‘good’ but a demonstrable failure to understand why what is is good is good.

 

1) Your MSU Squads are terrible. MSU Squads are primarily meant for two roles (beside Tax Fill):

-Efficient Deployment of Weaponry in a concentrated package

-Anchoring a backfield force (Devies or Faux Devi for Templars, and Long Fangs)

MSU are outright terrible as melee units. If I saw that unit coming out, I’d just gun it down with bolters. You need to fail 12 2+, saves for the Wolfgaurd but you are only moving 5+1d6 advance each turn. That means you lack initiative. Remember what I said about MSU? Efficient deployment of package. Your wolf gaurd terminators mean no Razors which means footwalking. On average by turn 2, you will have only cross 13”-14” If your requiring as 9”-10” (or 10”-11” distance) successful charge. Compared to Templars who crossed 15-16” whom only requiring at 7”-8” (9”-10” distance). That means you have to withstand another turn of shooting without reliably able to reroll.

 

Second PlasmaGuns, let us return, efficienct deployment of damage. Running Plasma in a melee equipped unit is terrible. You will lack opportunities to utilize it. You have 3 Plasma shots in Rapid. But without advancing you will only be 10”. That means it won’t be till turn 3 till you can rapid. Your better off taking either flamers or meltaguns which can actually be utilized. Either defensively or offensively. Flames Espacially are good for reception of charge which for a foot army, you’ll not be one dictating the battle, you’ll be dictated. Plasmas by nature are Weapons that require you have initiative, if your a melee groundpound force. Sense you have to surrender the ability to advance to use it.

 

Now are Plasmas more efficient than Flamers? Yes. But they are for a mobile firefight list that can quickly and rapidly deploy into rapid. Razorspam lists work with Plasma because Razors protect the MSU contents and move Plasma into rapid range turn 1.

 

Your Templar list you posted a few weeks ago has all these same issues. While perhaps a little less because the 2+\2W Wolfgaurd, who can tank. The blatant reality is this list will have the same core issues. Now you can mention that you won’t have wolf guard in front. But that could easily result in a terminator being out of position during combat. Which is role confusion. Which is bad. If he is there to tank, don’t waste points on a power weapon.

 

Now following this, you have once again another issue with your list, the basket train. The Stormwolf is holding a large number of toys. Worse it’s the only target for anti-tank. Which if you don’t take first it will be destroyed or crippled turn 1. Beside Bjorn who cannot be targeted turn one anyways. Then you have the Wulfen Star.

 

The Wulfen Star is a redeeming factor as you have two ways to deploy, the wolf or outflanking. Additionally no role confusion, a proper mix of weaponry. But if you on the hunt your Wulfen, you will likely be further out of position for your Blood Claws and Grey Hunters.

 

But rest of your list is skimping everywhere, from the MSU, Wolf Scouts and more. Or an awful role confusion. You lack functional anchors, so backfield objectives will require you wasting squads. Your ability to project and engage turn two is lackluster.

 

That means you have two turns of enemy shooting to endure. Further your MSU Squads will be destroyed. And the blood claws have large attacks, are only meddling damage, without rerolls or reliable Wulfen. All that said; if this list is a list having success with, good for you. But is it a better Templar melee list? Not a chance.

 

It has a better alpha when things line up just right. But Templars have always had a weak alpha. While we lost an attack on the charge. I said this before, raise your hand if you ever made every model in combat? You didn’t. You made maybe 5-8. So out of 14 Man Squad, by time it’s your turn again you lose 5-7. You get 6 pistol shots (I.e same number you would had have, if you had +1 attack on charge).

 

Really bluntly put, the reason your Templar list failed is because that list is bad. The SW lists works better under the same style list because what made that list bad is less salient here.

Oh boy I take a break from checking in on this thing and you've vomited a bunch of vitriol all over the forum again. Accusing me of being a terrible player based on your local meta.

 

1. Msu helps mitigate casualties, preventing large marine losses due to morale, while I can understand running a more focused squad towards JUST shooting or JUST assaulting, versatility allows your placement of squads to be fluid, the blood claws are better at melee sure, but that doesn't mean in a pinch that termie led squad of GH can't run in and do some damage. That being said, I do run larger Blood Claw units with Grey Hunter squads as primary shooting rather than termies in each. I change fluidly, this list isn't terrible, you're just extremely biased and salty.

 

2. The plasmas is a carry over from the templars list to an extent, but it still does lend to the whole versatility idea. notice the claws don't have them, the grey hunters are shooting primary with the chance to close combat, you treat them as an only close combat when that is never my intention.

 

errr you stopped numbering but I'll help organize since you won't. 3. The Wolf Guard are not there "Just" to tank, I generally fluidly assign wounds based on weapons, you are only locked into assigning wounds to him once he is actually wounded. I tend to take a mix or marine saves and termie saves. Also, the shield is a defensive option, the sword? it's pretty damn cheap, and he has to take something, so what? storm bolter? what was that about role confusion again? 

 

4. I actually agree with the storm wolf thing, it dies far faster than I anticipate generally, and honestly, in my newer lists it tends to be scrapped to make way for other stuff.

 

5.Wulfen don't need to on the hunt, with 7" move and advancing and charging, they can often move from cover to cover, guaranteeing an easy charge turn 2, or even a risky charge turn 1

 

6. I actually agree with this to an extent, I've added a bit more of a backfield presence to address this, again, a good point hidden in the angry block of text.

 

7. You say the blood claws have meddling damage, err, so? what troop unit of yours doesn't? are you claiming crusaders squads do more damage? that's a laugh. you say the wulfen are unreliable, which is just false, they usually do get their buffs, as the aura is 12". they usually have rerolls because my wolf priest is always right there. If not at least Bjorn.

 

8. So here you reinforce that Templars are good in prolonged combats, making a joke that you'll never get all the models to swing on the charge. Well firstly, if you assault a unit comparable to you in size, you generally will with a 3" pile in move. In addition to that though, I'll phrase something else in the same humorous way. How many combats do your opponents honest to god stay in with your units? Hmm? Any? oh...oh None. Yeah None. Having better persistent damage. Means. NOTHING. Any unit your opponent doesn't want in combat, will either die, or leave combat. Any unit he wants there, is probably not a unit you wanna be in there with. So your point of "well after the charge we're the same" I have to disagree, after the charge my enemy is dead, yours is backing up to let his gun line mow you down because you didn't kill them.

 

9. My last templar list was bad, it had a number of issues, your angry block of text has points, and it's not like I said "Space Wolves will always win where black templars fail" I'm just saying that they tend to do assault armies way better. Your main point seems to be the Alpha Charge vs Prolonged Combat argument, which is nonsense. Prolonged combat doesn't exist in 8th, unless you're losing, or its even. and if it is even, then its down to the dice, and your point doesn't hold water.

 

I would love to continue discussing this, but please try not to accuse me of making "Terrible" lists when they clearly aren't. Just because I don't play like you doesn't make it bad. Plus your list is an "Imperium" list, with the vostroyans (notably the most detested guard regiment as far as meta stigma goes, so having them helping your army seems appropriate given your focus on efficiency) not a "Black Templars" list, since my army is "No Longer Black Templars"

[Schlitzaf]

You realize I could replace my Vostroyans with Templars and my list core wouldn’t change.

 

1) Then don’t take Terminators. Grey Hunters excel in two ways, as a 10 Man Geared Up Line Unit or a small unit MSU with high concentration of firepower deployed via a razor or double Squad in Rhino

 

2) That unit is your only gonna be shot at by small arms fire and overcharge plasma. And otherwise gonna be ignored. But I’ll get to your Grey Hunters, Wulfen and Bloodclaw combo’s.

 

Your list is consistently failing to utilize the advantages you create for yourself, while you have Grey Hunters MSU’ing, you failed to capitolize on that. Secondly YOUR MARINES, losing 6 models, you have 55% chance to pass battleshock because of they shall know no fear. If you are only purpose is to use these units as tax, treat them like the useless pieces of tax they are. 5 Man naked Squads. Or better yet, just use Intercessors for cheaper and more efficient. And furthermore don’t suffer role confusion.

 

Now yes BloodClaws vs Templar Comparison. The BloodClaws are reliant upon the +1 attack granted by the Wulfen. Or they put out only a middling number of attacks at around 16. Or 2 dead marines. Templars whoever put out when properly geared for close combat always around 24-30 attacks before we start including pistols.

 

The difference here is that you are comparing small 7-8 Man Squads, with each other. Which is wrong. Also to answer your question, quite frequently. Because I deploy my charges to hit 4-5 enemy units or I deliberately charge enemy mid-teir combat units.

 

Or I purposefully construct a scenerio where the enemy cannot disengage by trilocking the enemy. You know all standard melee tactics in 8th Edition. Finally I treat my Crusaders as they are, ways to claim objectives, by being ObjSec and then outnumbering most troop choices. I don’t need to have more than a few models left. Most games out of 120 models I have 5-8 left.

 

But take a guess, I win. Because despite being nearly tabled. I have 8-10 objectives to my enemy 3-4. Also Vostroyans? Competitive, that is Cadian, Catachan or Tallarn. I literally use Vostroyans because my models are Vostroyans. I’d rather use them as Catachan for that sweet strength 4.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I was tempted to try and engage with some of these points. But all that would achieve is taking a step towards getting an interesting thread closed.

[JadedMask]

You realize I could replace my Vostroyans with Templars and my list core wouldn’t change.

 

1) Then don’t take Terminators. Grey Hunters excel in two ways, as a 10 Man Geared Up Line Unit or a small unit MSU with high concentration of firepower deployed via a razor or double Squad in Rhino

 

2) That unit is your only gonna be shot at by small arms fire and overcharge plasma. And otherwise gonna be ignored. But I’ll get to your Grey Hunters, Wulfen and Bloodclaw combo’s.

 

Your list is consistently failing to utilize the advantages you create for yourself, while you have Grey Hunters MSU’ing, you failed to capitolize on that. Secondly YOUR MARINES, losing 6 models, you have 55% chance to pass battleshock because of they shall know no fear. If you are only purpose is to use these units as tax, treat them like the useless pieces of tax they are. 5 Man naked Squads. Or better yet, just use Intercessors for cheaper and more efficient. And furthermore don’t suffer role confusion.

 

Now yes BloodClaws vs Templar Comparison. The BloodClaws are reliant upon the +1 attack granted by the Wulfen. Or they put out only a middling number of attacks at around 16. Or 2 dead marines. Templars whoever put out when properly geared for close combat always around 24-30 attacks before we start including pistols.

 

The difference here is that you are comparing small 7-8 Man Squads, with each other. Which is wrong. Also to answer your question, quite frequently. Because I deploy my charges to hit 4-5 enemy units or I deliberately charge enemy mid-teir combat units.

 

Or I purposefully construct a scenerio where the enemy cannot disengage by trilocking the enemy. You know all standard melee tactics in 8th Edition. Finally I treat my Crusaders as they are, ways to claim objectives, by being ObjSec and then outnumbering most troop choices. I don’t need to have more than a few models left. Most games out of 120 models I have 5-8 left.

 

But take a guess, I win. Because despite being nearly tabled. I have 8-10 objectives to my enemy 3-4. Also Vostroyans? Competitive, that is Cadian, Catachan or Tallarn. I literally use Vostroyans because my models are Vostroyans. I’d rather use them as Catachan for that sweet strength 4.

Side Note: AHHHHH NUMBER ALL OF YOUR POINTS PLEASE

 

1. I agree with this, I've actually started doing this, only expending the resources for the close combat Terminators on the Blood Claws

 

2. I find it odd that you say they'll be ignored, they often aren't. Being the ranged troops of my army they tend to hold objectives, which means more often then not they will be focused to clear them off.

 

3.The MSU is not intended as a tax, its intended to mitigate losses, both from very bad -8 or 9 leaderships or from the overspill of damage, such as, say, an imperial knight firing its assault cannon into the unit, if its MSU then it can only lose those 6, if it isn't it can lose far more. Thats just damage mitigation and was my first thought when making the list. That being said, there is something to be said for the loss of buff coverage since the units are smaller, and, though it isn't an issue now, the efficacy of "Unit Wide" stratagems. Currently I'm running a version with 12 man units, with an axe, and the terminator making the 13th, I've only had one game so its inconclusive, especially because we were using Open War cards so it was a bit more goofy than usual.

 

4. So your assumption is that the blood claws do less attacks because there are less of them. Ok but, if two of those units converge and attack, you have the same number of models in combat, as to your 14, with the additional benefit of them having an extra attack on the charge. You also assume you will lose no one and that I will lose guys, I'd say the opposite is more likely considering I have a 3+ invuln and 2+ armor to call upon during difficult barrages and you don't.

 

5. You deploy your charges to hit 4 to 5 units. First of all, your opponent must deploy very strangely to have that many units close to each other, though I've seen some pretty silly gun line setups with my necron buddy so fair enough, but I am comparing my 7 man units to your because my guys don't cost more. Point for Point they are more efficient, that's a fact, they have an additional ability, and they only suffer a -1 to BS, something they won't use. I comparing them equally because it's not as if I can't take as many guys as you, I can, whether or not in one specific instance I did or didn't doesn't damn or redeem either unit, simple math shows that they are concretely better, and that's all I will argue.

 

6. HOOO boy, when I read this I started laughing. Perhaps in competitive circles this is considered correct but. Damn dude. Ok, first, Trilocking is a thing, and can be effective, but I find it to be exceedingly rare to pull off even with 14 guys against a unit of any kind of respectable size, and if you did it against a small unit, you're at risk of killing it before the pile in, so basically its likely against a 10 man MEQ that you knock down to say, 7-4ish models, and then surround. Fair Enough, but that's awfully specific to claim you can constantly guarantee prolonged combats, I think you'll find many a competent opponent can avoid those circumstances pretty consistently. Now the second point, the one that made me laugh. You've made my point for me. The templars ARE lackluster in combat. They don't do much except die slowly on an objective, securing it for you. And sure, that's true of all marines, and perhaps even more of templars as you can consign massive 20 man units to the fire, and pay the 2CP to keep morale from devouring them whole. But, how unheroic is that? how anti-climactic? This was my point, Templars are boring as untoasted wheat bread. If your case for the Templars, is that they can die in droves well to secure VP. Then I can't argue, but I want my army to, engage enemies, beat them in combat. Heroically cut down enemies of the Emperor, you know, that poetic stuff. I would never want to consistently field massive armies of dudes that die almost to the last, and gain a skin of my teeth victory as my main win condition. Although I suppose it does sound very Imperial Fists, it doesn't sound very fun.

 

7. your last point I'll just direct you to the end of my last thing, also I apologize, I had a brain fart, I saw Vostroyans and my brain said Elysians, that's my bad, I've not heard any vitriol towards vostroyans as far as meta goes, in fact I find them very cool, although an auxiliary choice to my army would always be the Death Korps.

[Othniel's Blade]

Oh Emperor- stop turning what began as an interesting take to use similar, but alternate, rules to show our ZEAL on the tabletop into a pseudo-mathematical  ing match. We're here to have fun rolling dice and purging witches, not for infighting. Take it elsewhere, please. 

[Schlitzaf]

I am not saying one unit hits 3-4 units. You have 2-4 units hitting the enemy lines at same point. Reivar (Pre-FAQ), Assault or Vangaurd Marines, and Biker Squads. Means that by turn two you should have 3-4 points of impact upon the enemy lines. Meaning 3-4 Squads. Also trilocking isn’t that terribly hard.

 

And to be clear the 24-30 attacks is even assuming 4-6 marines die. Sense every 1 model puts out about 2 attacks + 1 Pistol. So losing 4 will Bring you down to 20 in Melee, compared to losing same number of Blood Claws (or your Wolf Gaurd Sargeant), you are now only putting out 12 with Wulfen + Sargeant. Or 21 but no Sargeant. Also how is battleshock a concern?

1) Rites of War

2) Cenos

3) Relic Banner

 

And “sitting their and die”, that is while less dignified way to say it. EXACTLY, what the Templar playstyle is. We have never had the alpha murder of puppies and vampire. Or other melee specialist. Our advantages were having abilities that lasted the entirety of combat.

 

And having cheap melee characters to hide in our Squads. We can do easily with TeethCastallens, and Champions. Alongside Captain Level character. If you want to be alpha murder fun times, sure. I never disputed that. But alpha murder fun times are not Templarly. We have never been alpha murder fun times. We have been constistently a melee force like Deathgaurd based on outlasting and outnumbering our opponents to win.

 

And your simple math is wrong, for 13 points a model, a Bloodclaw puts out 2.75 STR4 equivalent attacks situationally 3.75 STR4 per model or 13 points (spending just over 4.50 points or just under 3.33 points attack points spent. A Templar unit in contrast puts out 3 STR4 for 12 points or four points per an attack. That means on average the units spend a equivalent number of points per an attack).

 

That not to say BloodClaws are worse than Crusaders. BloodClaws are more specialized units, are around the same viability. But taking the Templar midfield objective holding ability and replace it with an alpha murder funtimes. And if you are willing to spend the points (which for us be like taking Grim or Helbrect) on units like Wulfen they become better. But in those circumstances, you are throwing around 100-200 odd more points into the equation.

 

Your claim is that Templars don’t play like Templars. We play exactly like Templars. We dig in and hold the objectives, even if we are cut down to a man we win. We don’t surrender, we don’t lose, we are only killed. But we still win.

 

Finally the thing if Grey Hunters are backfield bro, take Intercessors, or Long Fangs. Otherwise that is a waste of a premier midfield line troop. Whom can actually engage in melee and at distance. You having issues with Templars is fine, there are some.

 

But the issues is not we are not wolves or blood angels. We have our own distinctive playstyle and methods. The cornerstone of that is an attrition method of engagement. You don’t like that, but that is our playstyle sense our own book.

[JadedMask]

I'm going to have to agree to disagree here, Othniel is right, this is getting rather silly.

 

When I was playing templars in 4th-5th, they felt much more like my games with wolves now, what with accept any challenge, with the crazy lightning claw charges with termies just deleting units on the charge, that was always how I played, and how people at my shop played them.

 

There isn't anything less legitimate about your playstyle, just as I will argue there isn't anything less legitimate about mine. I think reducing it to "Alpha Murder Fun Times" is demeaning and rather annoying to hear. I have conceded some points to you to show I'm willing to listen, as I'm certainly not perfect, but since you don't seem to indulge me in the same capacity I'll be ending our dialogue here.

[JadedMask]

Also Schlitzaf, your list you posted is not allowed. You can only take relics from the detachment your warlord hails from. You have a relic in your guard and 2 in your space marines, that is cheating.

[Schlitzaf]

No? That isn’t an illegal list. You only get the free relic per warlord but assuming you take the strategem you can get a relic from other armies. Deathgaurd FAQ, if you are curious. Also I am not being demeaning by “alpha murder funtimes” it’s just your running and prefer melee based army, that is based on a powerful alpha strike utilizing a series of powerful alternative deployment methods and quick movement abilities.

 

And through these abilities you setups your goal too close the distance and preform an alpha strike normally before your enemy gets a chance to reliably respond. So you can engage in the fun of melee slaughter of enemy. “Alpha Murder Funtimes”.

 

Because it’s not a reliable alpha strike unless you have several degree of redundancies, like Blood Angels have with 3d6 charge, rerolling failed charge, 20” pre-turn 1 movement, or ability to immidaitely redeploy, plus an innate 12” movement.

 

The lighting claw murder terminators in our 4th ED were unreliable and not a true alpha strike due to deep strike or were 500 point investment. They are more of a counter assault unit. Further the issue of them lacking Grenades, made them a poor opening strike or alpha because they were striking last and high vulnerable to being wounded by things at initiative.

 

You are the one who came in here and tried to claim “Templars don’t feel Templars” then tried to argue that it’s because essentially is that we lack a unit that can alpha strike or otherwise. Which we do. We don’t have a good mid tier combat unit between Vang and Terminator like Wulfen/Sang/DeathCompany closest being Honor Gaurd Which is limited to two models.

 

All the while bemoaning us losing Sword Brothern, and Master of Sanctity which were basically company veterans and every Codex had them pre-5th. And you said you were taking C:SM relics with your wolves which is illegal, but I assumed you had some houserules.

 

All while claiming wolves were better at being Templars then Templars. Which is just wrong. Unless you want that mid tier combat unit which can engage alpha murder fun times or functional alpha strike. Which Templars never had that mid type combat unit.

[Panzer]

Also Schlitzaf, your list you posted is not allowed. You can only take relics from the detachment your warlord hails from. You have a relic in your guard and 2 in your space marines, that is cheating.

 

Only the free relic has to be from the detachment your warlord is from. You can still use the Stratagem for additional relics for allied detachments.

[JadedMask]

 

Also Schlitzaf, your list you posted is not allowed. You can only take relics from the detachment your warlord hails from. You have a relic in your guard and 2 in your space marines, that is cheating.

 

Only the free relic has to be from the detachment your warlord is from. You can still use the Stratagem for additional relics for allied detachments.

 

Fair enough, that is goofy as all hell.