Dracos Posted June 2, 2018 Share Posted June 2, 2018 I am/was looking to add a Knight Errant (Freeblade) to my collection to run with the Warhawks after I got the 70ish Primaris infantry painted. Now I think I'll be waiting until they get run properly through a Chapter Approved. The Knight Codex comes out and ... well OP is probably jumping the gun, but it sure seems like the Armigers are looking very favorable compared to the point cost of the Astartes Dreadnought options ... but better. Melee or shooting seems like these guys are going to be the wave of the future (Don't get me started on the Valiant, that's a whole other thread). The speed difference is shocking. Anyone else having these thought? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokugawa Posted June 2, 2018 Share Posted June 2, 2018 Have you readed the rules of the realease version? If so, please share with us here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Ed Posted June 2, 2018 Share Posted June 2, 2018 I would say that's probably not an overreaction. They're very good, very competitively priced, and come with a block of rules and strats that take them even farther. Dreadnaughts have...chapter tactics, I guess. I love Dreadnaughts. Just love them. I used to drop pod 6 of them into battle back in the prehistory of 5th edition. I bought two Redemptors immediately. I don't think I've built a list without a dreadnaught in 4 editions. I wish it was otherwise, but dreads just are not in the same league at that price point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted June 2, 2018 Share Posted June 2, 2018 Well they're definitely better in melee simply by the fact they are faster and have a 5++ against shooting. The Autocannon variant is pretty strong as well but mostly against multi-wound infantry, bikes and similar. What they can't do well is having a long ranged gun and a melee arm to defend themselves like Lascannon+CC arm for example. They also require a LoW detachment which could prove problematic in tournaments with a detachment limit (tho you don't really see Dreads in serious tournaments anyway). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokugawa Posted June 2, 2018 Share Posted June 2, 2018 Well they're definitely better in melee simply by the fact they are faster and have a 5++ against shooting. The Autocannon variant is pretty strong as well but mostly against multi-wound infantry, bikes and similar. What they can't do well is having a long ranged gun and a melee arm to defend themselves like Lascannon+CC arm for example. They also require a LoW detachment which could prove problematic in tournaments with a detachment limit (tho you don't really see Dreads in serious tournaments anyway). If a weapon platform has only 2 weapon "slots", usually 1 gun and 1 CCW would never make a tournament competitive configulation. Something of this, something of that, and nothing excellent in each area. If a nids player want some self-defense melee weapon on a fex, he can install it on the "mouth" slot, while fullfill the 2 "arm" slot with dakka. This made carnifexes very competitive. However, a dreadnought doesn't have a "mouth slot"... Also, official GW site listed the name of Armiger's single long-barrell gun as "Armiger autocannon". It would possible a S7 AP-1 weapon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted June 2, 2018 Share Posted June 2, 2018 Not sure what you're getting at? I even said that you don't see any Dreads in serious tournaments. Also no clue what you're trying to say with your last sentence. We know what kind of weapon the Armiger has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracos Posted June 2, 2018 Author Share Posted June 2, 2018 @ Tokugawa: Yeah there are at least three reviews of the Codex on Youtube now going over specifics in the book. I don't think as a mono-Dex it is going to redefine the meta but as detachments I see a Custodes like effect. I'm currently just looking at how similar in cost and function the Armiger and Dreadnoughts are with the Armigers not requiring Forge World to do certain things. Admittedly at the "cost" of a Detachment, the Armiger is in a class close to the Contemptor in function and at a lesser cost if I'm hearing correctly. D3 autocannons,yes please. It's got "shiney" all over it ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokugawa Posted June 3, 2018 Share Posted June 3, 2018 Not sure what you're getting at? I even said that you don't see any Dreads in serious tournaments. Also no clue what you're trying to say with your last sentence. We know what kind of weapon the Armiger has.What I mean is: the performance of Armiger will not be significantly better than a Mortis dread, unless GW set a very high number of shots on it(e.g. 12 total shots on average per turn). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracos Posted June 3, 2018 Author Share Posted June 3, 2018 Add the top hatch weapon to an average of 8 Damage 3 shots per turn for the both arms ACs should blow away the Mortis AC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kisada Posted June 3, 2018 Share Posted June 3, 2018 Not sure what you're getting at? I even said that you don't see any Dreads in serious tournaments. Also no clue what you're trying to say with your last sentence. We know what kind of weapon the Armiger has.What I mean is: the performance of Armiger will not be significantly better than a Mortis dread, unless GW set a very high number of shots on it(e.g. 12 total shots on average per turn). Tokugawa ... we know what the armiger autocannon does ... those rules have been leaked/talked about 60" heavy 2d3 S7 -1ap 3 damage. No penalty to move and shoot. That's each ... so 4d3 shots plus the hatch weapon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felstone Posted June 3, 2018 Share Posted June 3, 2018 Not sure what you're getting at? I even said that you don't see any Dreads in serious tournaments. Also no clue what you're trying to say with your last sentence. We know what kind of weapon the Armiger has.What I mean is: the performance of Armiger will not be significantly better than a Mortis dread, unless GW set a very high number of shots on it(e.g. 12 total shots on average per turn). Mortis Dreads have them beat on pure dakka, but the Armiger can run circles around it with its 60" guns. I wouldn't put my money on the dread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kisada Posted June 3, 2018 Share Posted June 3, 2018 What guns are you using on the Mortis that makes you think it beats the Armiger on pure dakka? I use the twin autocannon ... 48" range, 8 shots, S7 -1 2damage. BS3+, can't move and shoot without penalty, 6" movement. That armiger is gonna destroy that dread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shandwen Posted June 3, 2018 Share Posted June 3, 2018 I'm still hesitant to give up my lazcannons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felstone Posted June 3, 2018 Share Posted June 3, 2018 What guns are you using on the Mortis that makes you think it beats the Armiger on pure dakka? I use the twin autocannon ... 48" range, 8 shots, S7 -1 2damage. BS3+, can't move and shoot without penalty, 6" movement. That armiger is gonna destroy that dread. At 36" 2 twin bolters and 2 auto cannons beats 2 auto cannons, but at a distance the dread is dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kisada Posted June 3, 2018 Share Posted June 3, 2018 Ok ... so what weapons do you have on a mortis that beats the armiger on "pure dakka"? Average shots for the armiger is 8 : mortis is always 8 same str same AP armiger does more damage armiger longer range armiger also has carapace gun ... armiger is more expensive than an autocannon mortis though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felstone Posted June 3, 2018 Share Posted June 3, 2018 Ok ... so what weapons do you have on a mortis that beats the armiger on "pure dakka"? Average shots for the armiger is 8 : mortis is always 8 same str same AP armiger does more damage armiger longer range armiger also has carapace gun ... armiger is more expensive than an autocannon mortis though. The dread is also a better cc combatant, but i doubt the armiger would ever let it get anywhere near 36", that's the only time i see him having an advantage. Ok ... so what weapons do you have on a mortis that beats the armiger on "pure dakka"? Average shots for the armiger is 8 : mortis is always 8 same str same AP armiger does more damage armiger longer range armiger also has carapace gun ... armiger is more expensive than an autocannon mortis though. Also the carapace gun isn't some 12 shot str 5 wep (Mortis) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruor Vault Posted June 3, 2018 Share Posted June 3, 2018 Some back of the napkin math puts Helverins at roughly 4 damage against a T7 3+ target vs. the Autocannon Mortis Dread's ~2.5. The numbers are actually in the Dread's favor when comparing the Lascannon Mortis at ~5. However, the Helverin has the Mortis Badly beat in both durability and mobility in both cases. While I think the Armigers are quite an improvement over Astartes dreadnoughts, I think this is more of a case of Space Marines suffering from "1st Codexitis". Design Philosophy has obviously changed between now and when the Marine book was written. Given the lead times required for printing and shipping I think we're only just now getting codexes that are designed with the benefit of community input. I'm personally hoping for a significant overhaul of the Marine book in Chapter Approved this year to bring them more in line with other armies rather than nerfs to things like the Helverins which strike me as being very well designed for 8th. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kisada Posted June 3, 2018 Share Posted June 3, 2018 Felstone ... you weren't talking about close combat ability ... you were talking about "pure dakka" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felstone Posted June 3, 2018 Share Posted June 3, 2018 Felstone ... you weren't talking about close combat ability ... you were talking about "pure dakka" I was just noting they excel in one aspect (CC). At 36" 2 twin bolters and 2 auto cannons beats 2 auto cannons, but at a distance the dread is dead. "Pure dakka" the Dread wins at 36" or closer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kisada Posted June 3, 2018 Share Posted June 3, 2018 2 twin bolters? mortis dread doesn't get both bolters and autocannons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felstone Posted June 3, 2018 Share Posted June 3, 2018 2 twin bolters? mortis dread doesn't get both bolters and autocannons. My mistake. They get that OR auto cannons? No wonder you guys are so pissed, RIP DA dread lists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARK0SIAN Posted June 3, 2018 Share Posted June 3, 2018 I would actually look at this in a positive light. To me it suggests that they may look at dreads and make them better and/or cheaper. Armigers became this price because everyone agreed they were overpriced for what they did. Same with the bigger knights. We might finally be seeing a general rebalancing across the game to deal with the fact that they made hordes too cheap and models like tanks and dreads too expensive. I think it’s good that the armiger so clearly outshines the dread for the points as it highlights the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracos Posted June 3, 2018 Author Share Posted June 3, 2018 Optimist ;) One can hope. Must admit this beats the days of 2nd and 3rd edition when you had to wait for changes in three or four years ... if you were lucky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volt Posted June 4, 2018 Share Posted June 4, 2018 As somebody thinking about adding Deredeo(s) to his collection, how do they stack up in comparison to just allying in Helverins? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kisada Posted June 4, 2018 Share Posted June 4, 2018 BS starts better (2+). Heavy 8. S8. same AP. 1 less damage. only 36" also has the missiles. 2d3 s6 -1 1 Same 5+ inv to shooting, but also has a 4+ in melee Can get +1 to hit flying if you don't move. It's a "relic" so need to have another Elite slot (shouldn't be hard to fill). With missiles and heavy flamers it is about 75 points more than the helverin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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