Armigers ... Death of the Dreadnought?

[Captain Idaho]

On Dreadnoughts:

 

Yes they're struggling right now. Indeed the whole Codex Space Marines is. Why on earth does every faction have tank and artillery that fires twice with super guns and we don't?

 

I would like our Dreadnoughts to get a sweep attack similar to the Armigers but without a points increase. A 2+ armour save would be better.

[MARK0SIAN]

I think armour saves are in a weird place right now for vehicles like dreads and tanks. Now that everything can wound everything, realistically you shouldn’t have vehicles like Dreadnoughts and knights with a worse armour save than some infantry or, to look at it another way, only 1 better than some other infantry like tau and scions.

 

Short of giving every heavily armoured vehicle a 2+ though, there’s not much that can be done about it. This wounding mechanic has been bad for vehicles in general this edition and I don’t see any easy way to fix it.

 

I think a better option for dreads might be something like reroll failed armour saves. It won’t help much against dedicated weapons (which is fine) but it would help limit people just wearing you down with high volume but low AP shots. Vehicles like dreads are meant to be impervious to that sort of stuff after all :)

[Panzer]

To be fair, a 2+ armor save is still exceptional and a 3+ armor save is still considered good. It's mostly Space Marines, tanks and Battlesuits that have a 3+ armor and only the REALLY durable ones have a 2+ armor (like Terminators, Landraiders, Custodes, etc).

In game terms a 2+ armor is even better or equally good as a 5+ invulnerable saves against most wounds.

 

Everything can wound everything HOWEVER once you reach the half Strenght no AP area that's NOT anywhere near efficient. You'd need a ton Lasguns or Bolter to seriously damage a Vehicle no matter whether it has T8 Sv2+ or just T7 Sv3+.

 

The main problem isn't that everything can wound everything or that most tanks have "only" a 3+ save. The main problem is that there are too many anti-tank weapons available for most armies so they can deal with Russ spam and Knight armies which leaves lists with only few vehicles in a bad spot.

[MARK0SIAN]

I agree there are too many anti-armour weapons but I still think everything being able to wound everything is a problem. There’s nothing to really separate vehicles and infantry and therefore too many of the weapons are effective against too wide a variety of targets.

 

It’s also, conversely, lead to some weapons not being effective enough against their intended targets because if, for example, you make a weapon genuinely good against hordes then it also becomes too good against multi-wound single targets it is not intended for.

[Panzer]

Yeah no I really have to disagree there. But have fun trying to kill a Dreadnought with Bolter in a reasonable time frame. You just need 108 shots on average. 72 if we talk about a weapon with S<7 AP-1 D1 (Heavy Bolter for example). There's a reason why people still use anti-tank weaponry and don't just rely on mass of small arms fire.

[MARK0SIAN]

I’m not saying they’re efficient for killing them, that’s not my point. They can chip away wounds, meaning it’s much easier to kill the vehicles with the dedicated stuff because some of the work has already been done. Plus you don’t have to kill the vehicles now, simply stripping away half their wounds really lowers their damage output. Vehicles like tanks and dreads should only have to worry about dedicated AT weaponry. Not everything. On the field, no matter how weak.

[Panzer]

Eh, that's really not as much an issue as you try to make it. Anti-tank weapons can also vaporize non-tank models. That doesn't make those models less viable either. ^^

[MARK0SIAN]

No but they’re a lot cheaper so it’s not much of a problem. I don’t think we will agree on this I’m afraid. I think the new to wound mechanism coupled with the way AP works has massively disadvantaged models like dreads in this edition and because of this system, it is not possible to reflect how sturdy these units are meant to be with armour saves or toughness. Therefore other rules are needed like rerolling armour saves.

 

I can agree though that the prevalence of anti-tank weapons is a problem. Plasma is too cost effective for a start.

[Panzer]

I honestly think people simply forgot how it used to be with the old AP mechanic during 7th. AP4 or worse didn't modify the armor of Marines and such? Well yeah that's why in competetive lists you barely saw those unless the weapon had high rate of fire. Most weapons you saw had AP1-2 or were things like S7 AP4 with lots of shots.

Couple that with the old vehicle rules where vehicles often just explode or get made useless otherwise and you see Dreadnoughts were way less durable than they are now.

[Firepower]

The one reason Dreads are still better: there are no Armiger Chaplains ;)

 

...are there?

[Panzer]

The one reason Dreads are still better: there are no Armiger Chaplains

 

...are there?

 

Also no Armiger Librarians .... I hope :P

[Firepower]

Surely the lack of witch filth is a point in their favor :P

[Ipsen]

Rerolling armour saves was not a good time for anyone. Lets not do that.

[Aegir_Einarsson]

Firepower. They won’t stay long LCTB... made my order today I love that model:):)

[Dracos]

Rerolling armour saves was not a good time for anyone. Lets not do that.

Actually with everything offensively rerolling, something like this exclusive to Marines might make them elite again. At least it would be an attempt at bringing them into the competitive meta again. I’d love to hear other thoughts. But I think this would be great for Dreadnoughts and Terminators ... and that comes from a Primaris player. ;)

 

Because as of now all Termies and Dreads do now competitively is collect dust.

[NiceGuyAdi]

Heavy infantry and vehicles re-rolling armour saves against D1 weapons, I could get behind.

[Panzer]

I wouldn't mind armor save re-rolls.

It's not like those invul re-rolls we had in past editions ... especially the 3++ and 2++ ones lol

 

Rerolling armour saves was not a good time for anyone. Lets not do that.

Actually with everything offensively rerolling, something like this exclusive to Marines might make them elite again. At least it would be an attempt at bringing them into the competitive meta again. I’d love to hear other thoughts. But I think this would be great for Dreadnoughts and Terminators ... and that comes from a Primaris player.

Because as of now all Termies and Dreads do now competitively is collect dust.

 

 

Re-rolls replacing that silly 5++ would be perfect for Terminators. You'd need a AP-4 weapon to trigger the 5++ anyway (AP-5 if they're in cover even lol).

[Volt]

I think armour saves are in a weird place right now for vehicles like dreads and tanks. Now that everything can wound everything, realistically you shouldn’t have vehicles like Dreadnoughts and knights with a worse armour save than some infantry or, to look at it another way, only 1 better than some other infantry like tau and scions.

 

Short of giving every heavily armoured vehicle a 2+ though, there’s not much that can be done about it. This wounding mechanic has been bad for vehicles in general this edition and I don’t see any easy way to fix it.

 

I think a better option for dreads might be something like reroll failed armour saves. It won’t help much against dedicated weapons (which is fine) but it would help limit people just wearing you down with high volume but low AP shots. Vehicles like dreads are meant to be impervious to that sort of stuff after all

IMO a good way to make basic heavy heavy units like the Predator or Dreadnought viable would be to introduce 1+ armor saves like they were in Warhammer Fantasy. They still fail on a 1, but it means that things like heavy bolters and autocannons would merely reduce tank armor to a 2+. 

[Dracos]

Hmm I like that also. But If it was applied across the board to say Imperial tanks and knights also we end up with the same problem of Armigers outshining Dreadnoughts for a similar point cost.

[LucidNinja]

I think toughness hasn't been played to its fullest potential really, a lot of things should be tougher than what they are. A knight being toughness 9 or even 10 isn't a bad idea imo. I like how anything can hurt anything, I feel if you get 650 bolter shots on a knight it should die, but 4 lucky lascannon shots to do the same doesn't seem balanced.

This is off topic though, sorry.

Dreadnoughts will always have a place almost purely from nostalgia.Chapter tactics and strats are better for dreadnoughts also I believe but yeah, we need a space marine codex 2.0

[Tokugawa]

 

 

 

I think armour saves are in a weird place right now for vehicles like dreads and tanks. Now that everything can wound everything, realistically you shouldn’t have vehicles like Dreadnoughts and knights with a worse armour save than some infantry or, to look at it another way, only 1 better than some other infantry like tau and scions.

 

Short of giving every heavily armoured vehicle a 2+ though, there’s not much that can be done about it. This wounding mechanic has been bad for vehicles in general this edition and I don’t see any easy way to fix it.

 

I think a better option for dreads might be something like reroll failed armour saves. It won’t help much against dedicated weapons (which is fine) but it would help limit people just wearing you down with high volume but low AP shots. Vehicles like dreads are meant to be impervious to that sort of stuff after all

IMO a good way to make basic heavy heavy units like the Predator or Dreadnought viable would be to introduce 1+ armor saves like they were in Warhammer Fantasy. They still fail on a 1, but it means that things like heavy bolters and autocannons would merely reduce tank armor to a 2+. 

 

 

Predator is just a variation of Rhino chasis. It should not be anywhere close to 1+, thanks.

 

If there is someting 1+, it could be a Land Rider.

[Captain Idaho]

Well things like Predators should have a rule to boost it like other Codex books did. +1 to wound against vehicles and monsters from the turret weapon would be more original than just firing twice if you remain stationary.

[MARK0SIAN]

SM tanks and dreads should also be immune to penalties for moving and firing heavy weapons. If Guard turrets are immune to it, a predator should also be immune.

 

This would go a long way to improving dreads too.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

And invalidates the Iron Hands Chapter stratagem and, if it carries over to the Chaos Marine codex, the Blasphemous Machines stratagem. Not to mention that they'd have to either drop Land Raider points or else find something else for Machine Spirit to do. It's not that simple of a switch.

[MARK0SIAN]

They wouldn’t have to change machine spirit at all, just give it to the dreads and preds. You are right about the other stuff but surely that’s a good thing? They’d get what they currently have now for free and would be given another bonus and Land Raiders already need to come down in points, which I think they will in chapter approved.

 

The only thing you’d lose is the stratagem but I can’t see many people objecting that their vehicles can now do something for free (and all the time) that used to cost them CP.