Combating Knights with Ultramarines

[Iron Father Ferrum]

5d3: Orbital Bombardment.

[Panzer]

I don't think I'd waste CP for the Orbital Bombardment. It costs 3CP and hits only on a 4+ (5+ if the Knight is a character).

[Iron Father Ferrum]

That's subjective. To kill a Knight, especially in a whole army of them? That's a lot of well protected wounds to chew through so *any* mortal wound generation helps.

 

Besides, C:SM doesn't have that many great strats to be spending CPs on so I think you (generic you, not you specifically SFP) can afford it.

[Panzer]

Well spamming Hellfire rounds and re-rolls sounds like a better use of the limited amount of CP a Marine army has to me. ^^

[Captain Idaho]

It's an option for Ultramarines since we return the costs of CP usage by a third. I personally balk at the cost of 3 for 4+ hit but if a couple of Knights are close it might be worthwhile.

 

Likely I'd not use it but the option is there. I do prefer Scions of Guilliman, Wisdom of the Ancients, Masterful Marksmanship and Hellfire Shells in most games, often using all 4 in a turn which is a big wedge even though my main list has 10 CPs.

 

Thank the Primarch for Adept of the Codex!

[Prot]

Ah I think it’s time machine time. There once was a time when Blood Angel Landraiders dropped from the sky, and Bloodthirsters could sweeping advance through half an army... in those times I might deepstrike a drop pod loaded with melta.... remember when pods were useful?

 

Seriously though this is what I meant by old units coming back. At the dawn of 8th I was using Guilliman (or Calgar) with Lascannon Centurions with Tigurius making them -1 to hit and an Apothecary near by bringing them back.

 

I could see another army bringing the real magic bullet to Knight armies. GW likes to do this often. Wait for Wolves to have some kind of crazy mechanism to clobber a Knight a turn.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I could see Orks being a strong counter to Knights.

[StraightSilver]

Just out of curiosity what are people's opinions on IronClad Dreads? I've never used one purely because I am not a huge fan of the model but the Seismic hammer chucking out flat 5 damage is pretty good - guessing without a Storm Raven to deliver it though it won't last long against a Knight army? 

[CCE1981]

Just out of curiosity what are people's opinions on IronClad Dreads? I've never used one purely because I am not a huge fan of the model but the Seismic hammer chucking out flat 5 damage is pretty good - guessing without a Storm Raven to deliver it though it won't last long against a Knight army?

Like the other standard Dreads they die the first time heavy weapons sneaze at them. I use to absolutley love them, this edition not so mych.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

 

Just out of curiosity what are people's opinions on IronClad Dreads? I've never used one purely because I am not a huge fan of the model but the Seismic hammer chucking out flat 5 damage is pretty good - guessing without a Storm Raven to deliver it though it won't last long against a Knight army?

Like the other standard Dreads they die the first time heavy weapons sneaze at them. I use to absolutley love them, this edition not so mych.

Against a Knight, on Ironclad won't last long enough to do much. With multiples, you might be onto something. The Ironclad however is not "standard" since its T8 instead of 7, which gives you a slight advantage against melta and missiles. It definitely is allergic to lascannons, though.

[Prot]

Just out of curiosity what are people's opinions on IronClad Dreads? I've never used one purely because I am not a huge fan of the model but the Seismic hammer chucking out flat 5 damage is pretty good - guessing without a Storm Raven to deliver it though it won't last long against a Knight army? 

 

Actually I think a Dread (or two) is a better answer for Deathwatch. Otherwise without a real invuln save the 'walk' towards the Knight will definitely identify it as a major threat and it's gone. (Unless again if you have  few) But Deathwatch can just drop them in when necessary at the cost of CP.

 

A halfway answer is good ol' Termies and Shields (back to old units again... I swear this isn't intentional). The idea being that a good invuln really is strong against a Knight in CC. I know this from playing Custodes. The problem is Custodes can really struggle to do the damage required. But they can hang around a while, plus they're fast.

 

Termies on foot? not so great. This is why I think Wolves are going to shred them some how with some goofy Strat combined with dogs riding dogs with hammers or something. ;)

 

IF Hammer/Shield guys could get there, different story though.

[Joukernaut]

how about vanguard vets with hammer/shield, joined by a chaplain for rerolls?

[CCE1981]

how about vanguard vets with hammer/shield, joined by a chaplain for rerolls?

The unit as you have is 340(without shield) 390(with) plus the Chaplain you are looking at 430-492 pts (Chaplain with Power fist. To save pts you are likely to mix only a few stormshields into the mix so let’s say 4, 450 pts. Assuming you want the Chaplain to do some damage as well, 462 pts. On average you will just kill a Knight. The more casualties you take from overwatch, assuming you make the charge, the less likely you’ll be able to bring one down. Also remember you have to have stuff on the table and wait until turn 2.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Do VV have a rule that makes it easier for them assault straight from deep strike - just wondering .

[Captain Idaho]

No such luck I'm afraid.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Dayum :(

[Aothaine]

Still think people are overlooking the power an inquisitor has with Terrify now. -1ld and cannot fire overwatch at 18" you're shutting someone down and it is only WC6. Pick the right kind of inquisitor or a named character and you should be able to toss in a smite as well. 

 

Edit: I know it is not a space marine model.. but it is quite fluffy. Inquisitors are everywhere.

[Captain Idaho]

Indeed. That single power could change a game against a Valiant.

 

Interestingly enough, the -1 Leadership stacks usefulness with Psychic Scourge and our own +1 Leadership.

[Aothaine]

Indeed. That single power could change a game against a Valiant.

 

Interestingly enough, the -1 Leadership stacks usefulness with Psychic Scourge and our own +1 Leadership.

 

You can get really silly with this as well. Move in your Reivers and that is another -1 Ld. Anyone know of anything else Ultramarines can do to stack this up?

[UnkyHamHam]

Angel of Death warlord trait. But let's be real, no one will ever take it.

[Tokugawa]

 

 

 

Indeed. That single power could change a game against a Valiant.

 

Interestingly enough, the -1 Leadership stacks usefulness with Psychic Scourge and our own +1 Leadership.

 

You can get really silly with this as well. Move in your Reivers and that is another -1 Ld. Anyone know of anything else Ultramarines can do to stack this up?

 

 

Read the Codex Harlequins, then you would realize Marines have too few effective tools to buid a -LD based tactic.

[Captain Idaho]

It's not really relevant against Knights. Just to increase the chance of a successful Psychic Scourge.

[Prot]

So just a bit of catching up here... sorry been very busy lately, but have been getting my weekly games in still...

 

I just wanted to add a few things I’ve realized and experienced lately to add to the thread, sorry if it’s a bit helter skelter.

 

- I played my House Raven Knight army with a less than optimal AdMech “repair” Battalion mostly to increase CP count. But I kept two Relics and 2 WL traits on my Knights because I wanted to run a test.

 

- I played this game against a fairly competitive Chaos dude who often gives my Ultramarines a rough time (and has often beat my DW, and super close games with my Custodes).

 

- I still believe House Raven is best and they have the best House specific Strat where for 2 CPs I can reroll ALL 1’s for an entire shooting phase. I used this on my Castellan on a turn where I decided to use Oathbreaker on his Sorc on a bike who was casting Death Hex on my Knights... that turn of shooting was so freakin devastating with my Castellan I can’t over emphasize how screwed my opponent was just after I fired that one Knight.

 

oath breaker almost killed his Sorc so I CP re rolled... dead. The Strat for reroll 1’s was amazing because I also had Cawls relic gun on my Castellan along with. 4+ invuln trait. In fact I wasted the Volcano cannon because Cawls relic just raked him. The other shooting hit home and random shots are great with that Raven Strat

 

Next turn (for fun!) I used the Raven Strat on my Crusader with the relic Avenger Gatling... 14 shots, rerolling all 1’s all phase long.... 18 hits... Basilisk re rolled random shot snake eyes for a 9.

 

The Armiger with Melta Spear is gold when he’s ignored.... he finished off a Knight Crusader in CC.

 

My opponent was all but tabled before he got his bottom of turn 2. It was ridiculous.

 

I asked him to deepstrike his (Cacaphony) Oblits anyway bit had positioned my AdMech to ,ale picking out the Castellan almost impossible.

 

I felt pretty bad. I was looking forward to Knights but have already boxed my army up.

 

- I am building an Ultra list that will have rerolling (Calgar?) missile Devs with Cherub, and HBolter Scouts. It will have Plasma Inceptors. And lascannon / Grav Cannon Centurions with Bolter nipples.

 

Tigurius is a must. I’ll possibly use another Psyker just to get Greyfax in there to deny overwatch, smites would be good too...any mortal wounds.

 

I’m trying to figure out optimal flyers. Xiphon is best for this role but I feel like most Las will come from home base and I’d almost like to have a hammer payload with Greyfax in a Stormraven or something similar. Calgar might also fit in the forward role.

 

It feels like a two stage process, step one is softening with range and finishing with CC but even the explosions can be very penal.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

It’s easy to kill one big Knight but two not so much. If you do seems pretty much like it’s game over. From what I’ve seen so far knights don’t look fun to play against.

[Tokugawa]

I can see significant points increase for Castellans in Chapter approved 2018.