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Watch Captain or Watchmaster


Delta.Skies

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2k list and I'm at odds rn. Originally at 2k For My DW Battalion I Had

 

Watchmaster

Librarian - Force Sword / Plasma Pistol

 

4 Vet Squads

 

Squad 1

1 Sarge - Boltgun / Xeno Blade

Black Shield - Lightning Claw

3 Vets - Bolt Gun / Power Axe

 

Squad 2

1 Sarge - Chainsword / Stalker

2 Vets - Stalker / SS

1 Vet - Chainsword / Stalker

1 Vet Heavy Bolter

 

Squad 3

1 Sarge - Bolter / Xeno Blade

2 Vets - Bolter / SS

2 Vets - Frag Cannons

 

Squad 4 Kill Team - 

1 Sarge - Power lance / Stormbolter

Black Shield - Chainsword / Stormbolter

2 Vets - Stormbolter / SS

2 Vets - Power lance / Stormbolter

1 VV - Bolt Pistol / Chainsword

* Thinking of Adding 2 Termies / Stormbolters and Power Sword (thanks leth) but some points have to be drastically changed up for the route im trying to take *

 

Vanguard Vet Squad

1 Sarge - Bolt Pistol / Power Sword

2 VV - Bolt Pistol / SS

2 VV - Bolt Pistol / Chainsword

 

Biker Squad

1 Sarge - Stormbolter / Chainsword

2 Bikers Chain Sword

 

2 Razor Backs 

- Lascannons / Stormbolters / Hunter Killer Missiles

 

Allies ( AM: Commander / Tank Commander Las Cannon. Punisher Gatling Cannon. Heavy Bolters / 3 Troops of Troopers w Grenades / 2 (5) Scions w Hot Shot Volley Guns / Leman Russ Battle Cannon. Las Cannon. Heavy Bolters) ( AUX: Psychic Inquisitor with Force Sword and Stormbolter. Fluff Purposes)

 

Now The Situation I Am Thinking Of Is That Im Trying To Fit 2 Watch Captains In There. By Taking Out Watchmaster & Bikes ( Putting One Into Squad 4 w Termies ) I Can Get 1 Captain In With Some Points Left Over

 

If I Wanted to Take Another Captain I Would Have To Eliminate A Squad Possibly And See If I Can Get 1 or  2 Frags Into Squad 1 But Im At Odds.

 

Watch Captain 1 Loadout

- Jumpack , Combi Plasma Bolter , Power Sword

 

Watch Captain 2 Loadout

- Jumpack, Stormbolter and Thunder Hammer

 

Which do you believe is more essential to my list, because it feels like i can get more utilization out of 1 captain more than I could a watchmaster since its fixed equipment and on foot. But to get 2 Watch Captains I feel it can be done but is it worth, say eliminating the frag cannon squad and seperating the two frags / one with squad 1 and another frag with squad 2 so I can keep my razorbacks. Like what would be the reason to keep the watchmaster in a larger game. and is sacrificing a squad worth it to bring in another watch captain?

 

As always all comments and opinions are appreciated and thanks for reading my madness (or atleast skimming over)

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Only time I would ever take a watch captain is if all three of your deepstrike slots are taken, and you need to jump in someone with re-rolls. 

 

Otherwise its Watchmaster every time.  They are just SOOO much better. 

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Only time I would ever take a watch captain is if all three of your deepstrike slots are taken, and you need to jump in someone with re-rolls. 

 

Otherwise its Watchmaster every time.  They are just SOOO much better. 

Yea i definitely rethought that one. So i adjusted it. But threw a watch watch captain still.

 

Had to take out 3 bolt veterans, and seperate the frag cannons into different squads for him though.

 

So watch master on the field upfront then the watch captain with jumpack / thunder hammer / stormbolter coming in with the Kill Team & VV squad

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Watch master on the offense, the watch master and captain are roughly equivalent.

However, where the Watch master wins is when on the defense. Anyone charging a unit in range is going to suffer the watch master's full re-roll compared to only re-roll 1s. In this instance, always the watch master.

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Watch master on the offense, the watch master and captain are roughly equivalent.

 

However, where the Watch master wins is when on the defense. Anyone charging a unit in range is going to suffer the watch master's full re-roll compared to only re-roll 1s. In this instance, always the watch master.

thought about putting the watch eternal on my watch master as a defense buffer as well. i know its not much but since im running nothin but vets pretty much, increases their chances of living a lil bit since they would be on their last wound anyway.

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Watch Captain is pretty fun, but I only take mine to deep strike. Like most here I just think the Master is so solid. It’s not even about being super competitive to me, but with Hidden Knowledge, you want that Watchmaster on the ground asap anyway

 

Right now the captain is my third rate HQ but i always take him for the cool factor!

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well watch master technically its only  re roll 1 and 2  in comparison to captain's re roll 1 ,  watchmaster weapon is awesome but 60ish point expensive overall

 

A strong benefit of full rerolls is during overwatch and overcharging plasma against -1 to hit. (has to be just -1 though, any higher and you still die with no reroll)

 

It also helps more with degraded vehicles.

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You can tool a WC out just like Slammangius !

 

Not really. This is a common Slammahamma build:

 
Wargear - 
Relic: Angel's Wing (jump pack)
Storm Shield
Thunder Hammer
Bolt Pistol
Frag/Krak grenades
Special Rules - 
Warlord Trait: Artisan of War
And They Shall Know No Fear
Rites of Battle
Chapter Tactics (The Red Thirst)
The Black Rage
Fly
Deep Strike

 

A sort of close approximate can be made, but not the same at all. You can give him the Castallan of the Black Vault warlord trait and he'll gain +1 damage just like Artisan of War, but that's almost always better on a Watch Master. Doctrines cost 2CP whereas the Red Thirst is baseline. In recompense, you get to reroll 1s to wound from Mission Tactics (probably) and have slightly more flexibility on when to apply the +1 to wound effect even if it is more expensive. I'd say the edge stays a bit with the Blood Angels here, but it's mostly a wash. Where things start to get crazy is when you look at what you can't get...

 

You don't have access to equivalent tools that the Blood Angels stratagems bring. For example, you can't use strats like Death Visions of Sanguinius to add an effect like Black Rage - there's nothing like it for DW. That effect alone gives the Captain a 6+ FNP alongside +1 attacks on the charge. Likewise, you can't use Red Rampage for 1 CP to add another 1d3 attacks on the charge, or Descent of Angels for 2 CP to make the charge roll 3d6. Slammahamma builds have a bit of flexibility and can also swap out the +1 damage warlord trait and pick Gift of Foresight granting a 5+ FNP that rerolls 1s when you use the Black Rage strat, which is much more durable than what DW can provide. You also don't have access to the Angel's Wing jump pack relic which makes him immune to overwatch AND rerolls charge rolls, which works great with the above mentioned Stratagem. 

 

And that's before we consider the benefit that adding in a Blood Angels battalion provides. They open up access to things that DW can't really do, like forward deployment with scouts, while also giving you access to the Librarian discipline that makes your Slam captains better. Missed opportunity here for not giving DW Librarians the ability to pick any of the loyalist space marine psyker disciplines - it's not like they lose their abilities when they get seconded, right? Pfft, they should let me have a crack at the next codex, I have a laundry list of things I'd fix lol

 

Finally, you do gain one thing with the Deathslam captain over the Blood Angels one - SIA on the bolt pistol is actually kind of useful if you want another Tempest Shell option for a model at BS 2+. 

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The Watch Captain (I have dubbed him McBane :biggrin.:) is close in performance plus he is not a heavy CP sink... and that is good enough for me .

 

I must not have explained it very well because I was trying to show that he actually is a heavy CP sink to even get close to the baseline killyness of the BA Slam Captain without even taking into account the buffs a BA slam masta can stack with additional CP and access to unique relics, warlord traits, and librarian powers. You can definitely make a pretty powerful slam captain in DW, but he'll always be under the pretty considerable shadow cast by our lord and saviour Chapter Master Slam:censored: 

 

Though there is a really interesting alternative to the slam captain that's uniquely DW...the Terminator Captain with the power fist and meltagun in one hand and a combi-melta in the other. You run into the same charge limitations as the jump pack captain, but you're a bit more resilient to small arms fire and have the ability to reach out and melta the crap out of big targets. 

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I would rather have the speed and terminators suck this edition. You listed all the CPs you can burn on a BA jump cpt mind you...

 

Yeah, I suppose I wasn't clear. Think of it this way, you have the options to burn CPs on a BA jump captain that is a better unit baseline than the DW jump captain because of their chapter tactics. To get a DW captain up to the same effect, you need to spend 2 CP on a Doctrine for each turn whereas the BA guy gets +1 to wound just for rushing in. Even in that case you still don't have overwatch protection or reroll charge rolls that the BA relic gives you. We can think of it as this - if the DW cap is a 6, the BA cap might be a 7, without using CP for anything at this point. 

 

Then you add all the extra buffs you can dump CP on for the BA captain and he goes all Spinal Tap and hits 11. DW cap still trudging along at his respectable 6, though. He isn't bad, he does his own thing. He doesn't mind if he doesn't make the scene. He's got a daytime job man, he's doin' alright. 

 

To your second point, Terminators as a unit being bad has little to no impact on Terminator armour for heroes. Do not let the word 'terminator armour' distract you from how valuable it can be in the right role. In this case, the trade off is that you're giving up the mobility for an extra point on the base armour save, an extra wound, and access to essentially what amounts to a third weapon. That's something one should consider. 

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I have played Black Legion with Abbadon... I would rather have more mobile beatstick HQ. Some armies can keep a terminator HQ at arms length indefinitely. If it works for you then more power to you. I am working a very mobile element in my DW army and McBane fits in quite well. I tried using a Custodes Shield Captain in terminator armor versus mounted on a Dawneagle... the latter is far superior.

 

Sure the BA Smash Cpt is better but I would never dump all those CPs into one round of melee - you are kind of talking in circles if you are an advocate of burning all those CPs. I do not use IG CP farm either which I have heard from very reliable sources will be going away

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I really do hope the CP farm goes away. I am so tired of seeing it at the tournaments and now it’s even leaked into ‘casual’ lists. Plus I -want- to make a DW dude my Warlord.

 

Anyway I think if you’re taking a Captain it would be a good compliment to a Watchmaster, but I have trouble flat out replacing the Watchmaster.

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I have played Black Legion with Abbadon... I would rather have more mobile beatstick HQ. Some armies can keep a terminator HQ at arms length indefinitely. If it works for you then more power to you. I am working a very mobile element in my DW army and McBane fits in quite well. I tried using a Custodes Shield Captain in terminator armor versus mounted on a Dawneagle... the latter is far superior.

 

Sure the BA Smash Cpt is better but I would never dump all those CPs into one round of melee - you are kind of talking in circles if you are an advocate of burning all those CPs. I do not use IG CP farm either which I have heard from very reliable sources will be going away

I'm sorry that I'm not being more clear here - if it sounds like I'm going in circles it's because I'm unable to make myself understood lol Ignore what was said and I'll try to summarize

 

I'm not advocating that one actually spend the CP all the time always, only that they can do it if the situation calls for it. Or not, that's up to you! DW captains are not equivalent to a baseline BA one for damage, resilience, tactical flexibility, and edgy teenage angst. That's before any CP is spent. Additional tactical flexibility is, like, the best part of bringing a unit that functionally costs the same though, so the fact that the DW guy is so limited compared to BA while they're functionally the same cost is a sign. The sign says, in big neon letters, "Slammahammah is Best Hammah". Just trying to set the record straight that one should not expect Slammguinius levels of pwn simply by strapping a hammer to a captain - his ubiquity comes from more than that.

 

Re: IG farm - that's super cool! Can you expand at all? I'll still use them because they bring so much to a DW list that I can't get access to baseline, but knowing that I might be able to start considering other allies to fill that role has me planning out my next bunch of purchases lol

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Check out this build -

 

These relics and warlord traits make for some super fun and nasty loadouts.. here's one I thought of earlier:

Watch Captain: Jump Pack, Thunder Hammer, Storm Bolter, Banebolts, Castellan of the Black Vault (on hammer).. this guy is only 119 points and has the capability to push out an insane TWENTY FOUR, yes 24 damage a turn (16 from the D4 hammer, 8 from the Banebolts)

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Check out this build -

 

 

These relics and warlord traits make for some super fun and nasty loadouts.. here's one I thought of earlier:

Watch Captain: Jump Pack, Thunder Hammer, Storm Bolter, Banebolts, Castellan of the Black Vault (on hammer).. this guy is only 119 points and has the capability to push out an insane TWENTY FOUR, yes 24 damage a turn (16 from the D4 hammer, 8 from the Banebolts)

Don't forget if all those storm bolter shots roll 6+s to wound it's actually another 4 mortal wounds on top...
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Check out this build -

 

These relics and warlord traits make for some super fun and nasty loadouts.. here's one I thought of earlier:

Watch Captain: Jump Pack, Thunder Hammer, Storm Bolter, Banebolts, Castellan of the Black Vault (on hammer).. this guy is only 119 points and has the capability to push out an insane TWENTY FOUR, yes 24 damage a turn (16 from the D4 hammer, 8 from the Banebolts)

 

 

Now THAT'S killy. I like it. 

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Not or Now ? :biggrin.:

 

Ooooops, good catch lol

 

I like this build. I think I'll give it a shot in my next game (well, the next friendly game I can proxy things in) alongside a jump Librarian to add some Veil of Time or Might of Heroes. 

Not or Now ? :biggrin.:

 

Ooooops, good catch lol

 

I like this build. I think I'll give it a shot in my next game (well, the next friendly game I can proxy things in) alongside a jump Librarian to add some Veil of Time or Might of Heroes. 

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I'm in the middle of sourcing bits for that jump pack captain setup.

 

I've got the Primaris options sorted and the Terminator Captain with combimelta/meltafist option, and he is next on my list :)

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