Your experience with SG.

[Morticon]

via Imgflip Meme Generator

I'm open to being shown otherwise, and I really do need to see it on paper, but I just don't see these guys working in my meta.
The 2+ save is nice, as is the 2W, but with the amount of high AP, multi damage weapons, these guys just fold. 

For those of you who have had success- where do you find the success lies? How do you work them into your list and what do you do with them? 

 

If someone I'm up against plays SG, I'm grinning. Squad of 5-8? Scorpios fodder for me. Or, a simple drop with my Plasma-ceptors and poof.

Also, their limited amount of attacks (albeit with PWs) just seems so naff.  

Thoughts, please! 
 

[Pendent]

Their damage output scales really, really well with buffs. Most people are too timid with them, not wanting to devote too many resources to a single unit and that is entirely the wrong thing to do with them. The durability is fine but anybody that is depending on their stuff surviving concentrated firepower in 8th is playing wrong. Everything dies, the best defense is an overwhelming offense.

 

I've taken to running a terminator librarian with wings/unleash rage, the Sanguinor and my TH Captain as warlord alongside 10 Sanguinary Guard armed with swords and fists. I spend turn 1 focusing on clearing a landing zone for them and drop them into that hole turn 2. I deploy them as widely as possible in an effort to tie up or kill as much of my opponent's force as possible. Give them Unleash Rage and make sure to keep them within 6" of both the Sanguinor and the Captain if either character fails their own charges and you at the very least have 40 ap-3 attacks that deal d3 damage a piece, wound most things in the game on at least a 4 or better and reroll 1's to hit. This is a really good time to use Honor the Chapter if anything survives the first round of fighting as well.

 

If you somehow don't wreck the hell out of a very large portion of your opponent's army with that initial charge they still have a huge problem to deal with. It takes a lot to kill  that many guard and that's ignoring the characters who are almost as large a threat in their own right and those Sanuinary Guard are going to mess with targeting the characters something fierce.

 

With my new list my opponent is also highly concerned with one of the new Castellan Knights blowing up all of their vehicles and multi-wound infantry so they're unlikely to be able to focus too heavily on fully wiping out my guard. Multiple threats goes a long way to avoid getting any one thing focused down.

[toaae]

Sanguinary Guard are a unit that very much depends on your meta. I'll quote myself from the Unit of the Week thread for SG:

 

 

Sanguinary Guard don't compete with DC when it comes to damage output. You can do anything you want to improve that, but at the end of the day, every single buff you can give SG (other than their Heirs of Azkaellon) you could give DC.

So why take SG at all? The answer isn't just to get a hard hitting unit, but to get one that is also durable. I know people will respond with "overcharged plasma", but that's a function of playing the game. You'll have to use your army to mitigate the enemy's ability to target your SG with plasma. If you play in an environment with lots of armies running multiple plasma units, then SG are probably not a good fit for your meta. But if you can find ways to avoid letting your opponent shoot overcharged plasma at SG, they are incredibly durable against most other weapons.

 

 

They aren't very good if lots of multi-damage, high ROF weapons are in vogue in your area. But if you play in a meta that doesn't feature loads of plasma, or you feel you can mitigate the danger they face with the rest of your list, they are plenty durable against most every other weapon. They then can absorb other buffs better than just about any other unit we have, and they can become incredibly dangerous.

But I do find them harder to use than DC.

[Pendent]

I strongly disagree about the damage output. Having multi-damage weapons more than makes up for losing a single attack in my book. Every extra attack you give the sanguinary guard is 2 average damage instead of the 1 for the DC

[toaae]

I strongly disagree about the damage output. Having multi-damage weapons more than makes up for losing a single attack in my book. Every extra attack you give the sanguinary guard is 2 average damage instead of the 1 for the DC

 

For nearly the same price as 1 SG, you can take 1 DC with a Thunderhammer. Which, in terms of straight damage output, is far better for buffs than an SG is. Alternatively, you can take 7 plan DC for the cost of 4 SG, and if what you're fighting doesn't have multiple wounds, those DC will also multiply the buffs more. When it comes to who is the better offensive unit, DC win. They just have almost no durability, especially compared to SG. DC can't even make use of the Standard of Sacrifice.

[Pendent]

The idea of taking a unit full of DC with thunderhammers is absurd to the point that it's barely worth discussing. 36ppm for something with a 3+6++ is just objectively not good regardless of how hard it can theoretically hit.

 

A better comparison is looking at a Death Company Marine with a power sword and bolter (24 pts) vs a Sanguinary Guard with a sword and angelus boltgun (35 pts). You get in many situations double the damage output for a 33% cost increase. Sure, that's wasted against chaff but there's an awful lot of multi-wound stuff floating around these days. My Sanguinary Guard happily rip through tanks, Tau battlesuits, characters and especially Primaris in a way that DC simply can't compete with. The Sanguinary Guard also has a 2+ save, an extra wound and a gun with ap-1 and even a built in reroll.

 

When you talk about getting 7 DC for the price of 4 SG you're comparing completely units with completely different uses because those Death Company would have chainswords. Against chaff it's true I'd much rather have the DC, but they'll also be a lot less useful against anything with a decent save.

[Diagramdude]

Im on my phone otherwise I'd say much more but there are a number of methods to make the SG shine using player skill:

 

1. The tri-lock assault mechanic to shield them from enemy fire.

 

2. Using a large squad to surround-kill transports and delete the passengers.

 

3. Using Standard of Sacrifice to make the 2W stretch much further.

[Morticon]

The above argument essentially depends on the target of the SG.   DC seem like they can go toe-to-toe with anything given reasonable kit choices, while SG need to make better use of their weapons' ability.  Bigger monsters/tanks/etc. 
 

[Morticon]

Im on my phone otherwise I'd say much more but there are a number of methods to make the SG shine using player skill:

 

1. The tri-lock assault mechanic to shield them from enemy fire.

 

2. Using a large squad to surround-kill transports and delete the passengers.

 

3. Using Standard of Sacrifice to make the 2W stretch much further.

 

 

SoS is the only one that seems to be worth mentioning though, tbh - on account of other units being able to do exactly the same thing suggested in 1 and 2.  I was thinking the SG Banner bearer being the WL - as has been suggested elsewhere previously.  Makes a good tag-team. 

[Zombs]

I used them a couple of times and then switched back to DC immediatly. They do the same thing, but better and at a lower cost imo. Lemartes and 10 DC with 2 hammers is my go to assault unit.

Problem with SG is they need a lot of buffs to be really effective and generally I dont like concentrating a lot of recources on a single unit.

If I was to play them I would for sure take the anciet with the FNP 5+ banner tho.

[Diagramdude]

One defensive value SG have is to screen for characters, especially when there are only one or two surviving SG. BA characters can REALLY do most of your heavy lifting if they cant be targeted down in the shooting phase.

 

Characters can't screen for other characters but the SG can. I've had one surviving SG model completely confound the enemy firing lanes.

 

"What do you mean I can't shoot him?"

"Sorry this one right here, this isn't a character..."

 

The reason SG do this job so well is most anti-chaff weapons are horribly inefficient at killing them. The enemy has to use some of their heavier fire that they would much rather shoot at capt. Smash or mephiston. A death company marine trying to perform this screening role would die to the bolters and lasguns, leaving all the plasma and lascannon fire to go into your characters.

 

I love how fluffy it is that they excel in this bodyguard role.

[Morticon]

I think what's shifted or rather shaped my view is that in my local meta, the toughest opponents are Stealer-spam nids backed by Hive Guard and Tyrants and then Russ/Bassy heavy AM. 

 

The stealer squads come in 20s - so on the charge or counter charge they destroy what they touch.  The hive guard also thin them out something fierce with their no LOS, and good damage and AP.  

The Russes/ and Bassies are the same situation.   I would still like to give them a bash -just usually never invest that many points in one unit  :/ Will see how it goes! 

[Karhedron]

I have been running an all-infantry list recently and DC fit perfectly in there. Putting in SG would just give my opponents a juicy target for heavier weapons.

 

Where SG shine is where you have lots of tough units on the board. Do your opponents fire their overcharged plasma at the SG or the Inceptors or the Libby Dread winging its way through their lines?

 

SG need the investment to make their points back. A 5-man squad is just a waste. 8-10 with the Ancient + SoS and either Sanguinor and/or an "Unleash Rage" Libby will tear through most targets. I normally run a 50:50 mix of Swords and Fists in case you run into tough targets. If you are facing the new Imperial Knights then a Sanguinary Priest for the +1S means that even your Swords will be wounding the big Knights on 4s and your Fists on 2s as well as bypassing their Ion Shields (not to mention patching up any wounded models).

 

With SG, you either go big or go home.

[Brother Crimson]

They used to do wonders in my assault army.

1st wave DC 2nd wave sanguinary guard with overlapping buffs from sanguinor/sanguinary banner used to work well for me. I haven’t tried much with the new beta rules as we decided to wait for them to go official but I can expect this strategy was massively nerfed.

[Indefragable]

With SG, you either go big or go home.

^This.

 

I don’t think it’s fair to compare SG and DC. It’s like comparing a plasma cannon to a hurricane bolter.

If you are trying to swap them out for each other and expect similar results, I think you are going to be disappointed.

 

Though I much prefer the swords for looks and fluff, going all power fists in SG is competitive and helps to focus their use. If you’re throwing them at chaff...then, we’ll thats the problem of the General not the grunt.

 

SG w/ fists and inferno sprinkled in, + SoS + a Libby casting Shield of Sanguinius (hmmm another Sos power) and maybe unleash rage while also guarding against psychic powers can be quite nasty. Their best use is shrugging off the small arms while taking down big scary stuff. They are pretty good at bullying other elites as well.

 

DC have a few things going for them: Forlorn Fury and Lemartes. But Lemartes is almost a tax, so you can’t forget to factor in his cost (and opportunity cost at the HQ slot) if you are bringing them. Yes, they can be equipped with a wide range of weapons, but that drives up the cost which they unfortunately do not have the resiliency to sustain. SG get good weapons and 2+ armor “for free” in comparison.

 

To go back to my original point, they typically should not be applied in the exact same uses (unless you’re bringing 5x of each all w/ power fists and inferno...). And for that reason—as always—it depends on the rest of your list. If you have a ton of assbacks to sweep away chaff, then SG will likely be a better complement. If you have tons of lascannon-toting Devs and plasma inceptirs, then you’re probably better served with DC.

 

Decision tree;

-are you planning on getting max use out of Forlorn Fury?

—if yes, do you have room for Kenartes in both points and slots?

 

-are you bringing an Ancient with a jump pack?

—do you have spare CP to get the SoS Relic?

 

-which unit is the rest of your army better served by: the SOS banner or Lemartes?

[Kallas]

One thing to remember is that the SanGuard have Angelus Bolters, which makes them pretty solid vs infantry.

 

DC should almost always have a Bolter; the Angelus is essentially just an AP-1 Bolter (because they have the speed to get into 12", and you'll almost certainly want to be maximising your firepower anyway). So the SG aren't falling behind in chaff killing potential by much.

 

Further, considering that some important enemy chaff can have significant resilience improvements, such as Poxwalkers (5+ FNP), Ork Boys (6+ FNP), Tyranids with Catalyst (5+ FNP), they extra damage of the SG weapons can help them push through that barrier.

[Majkhel]

True, but still SG do not want to be in CC with those screens unless there is no other option, as this is exactly what our opponents want. 

[Karhedron]

One useful trick is to actually make one of your Sanguinary Guard you Warlord (since your WL does not have to be a Character). You lose out on the WL trait but you do guarantee that your SG will always have full rerolls.

[Panzer]

And make them a bigger target than they already are since your Warlord wouldn't be protected by the Character keyword anymore. ^^

[Remtek]

They are very good in lists that are aggressive and clear infantry well with other units. I have been running a unit of 8 of them in 2 tournaments and done well, but then again i was running 33 mortars with full re-rolls, so screens were not an issue.   Death Company just die to quickly to many matchup's (imo), especially vs horde lists where SG can lock down many hordes for a few turns. For typically balanced shooting lists with assault elements i think characters + agressors replace the role of both SG and DC. 

[Karhedron]

And make them a bigger target than they already are since your Warlord wouldn't be protected by the Character keyword anymore. ^^

but effectively has 20 wounds at 2+ plus whatever Banner/Priest/Shield malarky you add on it. The flip side is that a a fast unit cannot scoot behind the unit to try and assassinate your Warlord.

[Arkaniss]

With SG, you either go big or go home.

^This.

 

This x2

 

I've found SG to be absolutely brutal when you load up on them - one big squad supported by Warlord/Captain/Lieutenant/Sanguinary Priest/Librarian/Chaplain/Ancient/etc... then throw them at whatever you want dead. Season with Standard of Sacrifice to keep them going as mentioned many times already!

 

It's a points investment that usually defines your whole army list but (so far) when they destroy the big-bad I needed dead they then move on to steam-roll any remaining threats. The trick is to deploy them carefully or keep them in reserve to protect them from taking too much damage before they can strike.

 

Now, it's quite possible I've been lucky with them so far and as always with everyone's posts here it heavily depends on the local meta. Perhaps the time will come where my opponent has the right units/plan to blunt the Sanguinary Guard o' death and destruction (which is probably only a matter of time) but when that day comes I'll still take them, because the models are awesome

 

I've not seen mention of Plasma Pistols but I have 2 in my SG and I find them very useful for adding a few wounds before combat. They're worth the few extra points since they hunt high Toughness targets, though I have horrendous luck with over charging them even with a re-roll

 

Edit: I forgot to mention The Sanguinor with his +1A along with a Librarian with Unleash Rage is pretty spectacular!

[dakkamasta]

The thing I don't like about SG is that for them to work it feels like I'm playing 7th edition again i.e. taking a really big elite unit with multiple characters running with them to make a deathstar type unit. I never like putting so many eggs in one basket especially when the unit still has so many weaknesses even with buffs.

 

I feel like the bottom line for SG is that they can be very good if all of the factors to making them work happen as planned. The issue is that there are so many factors to make them good that if one or two don't go the way you want then you spent a crap tonne of points on a unit that isn't pulling its weight.

 

That's why I think people lean towards DC. They chop up pretty much everything relatively well for their points and if they go down, at least they don't make up 1/3 of your army.

[Kallas]

For multiple supporting characters, bear in mind that with our aura abilities those characters can happily change gears and be used to support other elements of your force, particularly if you are bringing Jump Pack characters.

 

The list I am most anticipating running (as soon as I have the models for it) is:

Battalion

Captian (Power Axe, Storm Shield)

Lt (Power Sword, Storm Bolter)

 

4 Knife Scouts, 1 Heavy Bolter

2x 4 Tacticals, 1 Plasma

 

9 Sternguard

 

Razorback (Assault Cannons)

2x Rhino

 

Spearhead

Librarian Dreadnought (Shield or Rage, Wings, Veritas Vitae, Warlord - Selfless Valour)

 

3x Predator Destructors

 

Vanguard

Lt (JP, Power Sword, MC Bolter)

 

Company Champion with Jump Pack

Sanguinary Ancient with Standard of Sacrifice

8x Sanguinary Guard (4 Sword, 4 Fists)

 

Essentially it's an armour column of transports and Predators, with plenty of mixed threat levels (Predators are ubiquitously potent; but the the Sternguard Rhino is also a serious enough threat to divert firepower...but so is the Razorback - so choices!) The characters can castle up amidst the vehicles to provide their buffs, with the Ancient around to provide resilience to any infantry that get forcibly disembarked; and the Champion there to help intercept incoming melee threats.

 

The Sanguinary Guard are held back and provide the fear factor of Blood Angels assault units (ie, can drop in and demolish something essentially at will), and when they do drop, provided they don't drop a million miles away, the various characters can, if the situation dictates, jump out of the vehicle formation to support them: Librarian Dreadnought can drop a buff on them and provide the Warlord buff; and the Ancient obviously provides the Standard for extra resilience (and potentially can move fast enough to keep them in range once they dive into melee).

 

Overall, I'm really eager to try it out, but I'm in a league at the moment where we can only change lists after we lose (damn my 1 Win and 2 Draws!)