B&C Knights FAQ: For Scions of House Confused

[Vel'Cona]

 

The tradition only triggers if you advance, so yes. If Armigers don't have a way of otherwise mitigating a move and fire heavy weapons penalty, you're right PC - they get more accurate when they run

 

Just another reason to plump for that meltagun, amirite :lol:

[Voltron]

Q:  If a model using heroic intervention comes into contact with a Knight with a Gauntlet, can the Knight target the model with the DEATH GRIP Stratagem even if he has not declared a charge against it?

 

A: Yes. RAW, there are two elements which constitute requirements to use Death Grip:

 

1. The Knight must have fought.
2. The Knight must choose an enemy unit within 1", that consists of a single model, to be the target of Death Grip.

 

There's nothing to say that the Knight must have charged, only that he must have fought. It also states nowhere that the Knight must use Death Grip on the unit he had been fighting. So a character that has HI'd into combat, would be at risk if in range.

But if a unit has charged, then it can only attack units it declared a charge against. And Death Grip is an additional attack made.

[Gaz1858]

 

Q:  If a model using heroic intervention comes into contact with a Knight with a Gauntlet, can the Knight target the model with the DEATH GRIP Stratagem even if he has not declared a charge against it?

 

A: Yes. RAW, there are two elements which constitute requirements to use Death Grip:

 

1. The Knight must have fought.
2. The Knight must choose an enemy unit within 1", that consists of a single model, to be the target of Death Grip.

 

There's nothing to say that the Knight must have charged, only that he must have fought. It also states nowhere that the Knight must use Death Grip on the unit he had been fighting. So a character that has HI'd into combat, would be at risk if in range.

But if a unit has charged, then it can only attack units it declared a charge against. And Death Grip is an additional attack made.

 

 

I think the above is the fairest way of playing this until the FAQ comes out. It does say an "additional attack" so by rights it should follow all the rules for the original attacks. 

[Stray]

Hmm. I'd like to see stronger arguments against the current FAQ please gents.

 

We're in danger of choosing our own meaning of 'additional attack' here. I don't think it implicitly implies a relationship with your regular CC attacks, more it's a convenient way of just wording the extra action (which of course is a form of offensive action, an 'attack'). 

 

You can only resolve your regular close combat attacks against a unit you have declared a charge against. The BAB makes that clear, as well all agree. Death Grip however isn't part of the regular close combat order of actions. It is not part of the regular attacks listed on your datasheet.

 

While it may well be the intent to have you use it on a unit you've charged, it doesn't imply this in the way the stratagem is worded. In fact, it has very specific targeting information included in the wording. I feel that where we can't be completely certain of intent, we have to responsibly go with the purist RAW reading possible, without adding interpretation of our own where we're able to avoid it.

 

Unless we can implicitly link the strat to the normal order of action when resolving CC attacks, I think we just have to go with the information within the Stratagem as we have currently.

 

I'm ready to be convinced otherwise however, and I completely invite solid arguments to the contrary, as it really isn't 100% clear :/

[Gaz1858]

Ok thats fair.

 

Well the attack happens immediatly after fighting so the only way that someone you didnt charge would be within an inch is if you charged, remained an inch away from the target/s and then consolidated to bring them into cc. So long as that model was the closest for the pile in to have that effect, which if you are within an inch of the target and more than an inch away from the otther you want to use Death Grip on is going to be impossible

[Mushkilla]

 

Q:  Firestorm Protocols - If I declare all my shots into two targets and after destroying the closest target, I still having my declared shots available for the second target, do I get the benefit of the Firestorm Protocols Tradition against the second target?

 

A: No. Unfortunately Firestorm Protocols only triggers against the initial 'closest target' which the firing unit has shot at. You cannot sequentially destroy multiple units and preserve the bonus throughout the firing units shooting action.

 

RAW this is incorrect.

 

The wording for Firestorm Protocols is:

 

"Re-roll hit rolls of 1 for a model with this Household Tradition whenever you are resolving an attack with a ranged weapon that is targeting the closest enemy unit."

 

The core rules state that:

 

"In either case, declare how you will split the shooting unit's shots before any dice are rolled, and resolve all the shots against one target before moving on to the next."

 

As this trait comes into play when the attack is resolved that is when we check whether the enemy unit is the closest target. A knight crusader armed with an avenger gatling cannon and a thermal cannon. In its shooting phase it targets its thermal cannon at a tank and its gatling cannon at an infantry squad. We resolve the attacks of the gatling cannon first, it gets re-roll 1s to hit because the infantry squad is the closest target. Then infantry squad is destroyed. We then resolve the fusion cannon, the tank is now the closest target, the thermal cannon gets re-roll 1s to hit.

 

Whether this was the original intent or not who knows. But from a RAW standpoint it's pretty water tight.

[Stray]

 

 

Q:  Firestorm Protocols - If I declare all my shots into two targets and after destroying the closest target, I still having my declared shots available for the second target, do I get the benefit of the Firestorm Protocols Tradition against the second target?

 

A: No. Unfortunately Firestorm Protocols only triggers against the initial 'closest target' which the firing unit has shot at. You cannot sequentially destroy multiple units and preserve the bonus throughout the firing units shooting action.

 

RAW this is incorrect.

 

The wording for Firestorm Protocols is:

 

"Re-roll hit rolls of 1 for a model with this Household Tradition whenever you are resolving an attack with a ranged weapon that is targeting the closest enemy unit."

 

The core rules state that:

 

"In either case, declare how you will split the shooting unit's shots before any dice are rolled, and resolve all the shots against one target before moving on to the next."

 

As this trait comes into play when the attack is resolved that is when we check whether the enemy unit is the closest target. A knight crusader armed with an avenger gatling cannon and a thermal cannon. In its shooting phase it targets its thermal cannon at a tank and its gatling cannon at an infantry squad. We resolve the attacks of the gatling cannon first, it gets re-roll 1s to hit because the infantry squad is the closest target. Then infantry squad is destroyed. We then resolve the fusion cannon, the tank is now the closest target, the thermal cannon gets re-roll 1s to hit.

 

Whether this was the original intent or not who knows. But from a RAW standpoint it's pretty water tight.

 

 

I think you're probably quite right Mushy, but the literal RAW interpretation doesn't apply in this case. It's been confirmed by both GW and part of the play testing group that the Tradition only counts toward the initial unit :/

 

Unless an FAQ or further statement contradicts that, I think we have to accept that ruling.

 

Your interpretation is sensible though to my mind, and it would make the Tradition more worthwhile - it might be worth emailing the rules team about it? See if it can be revised?

[Bluflash]

Re: Death Grip
Theres a couple of separate questions imbeded in this single strategem.

First is a question of timing: At what point do I make the additional attack? Can I consolidate first?

Second is a question on targeting: May I target a unit that I did not charge?

 

As to timing, it seems pretty clear that this "additional attack" is made after you have completed the full fight activation. 

It matches the phrasing from all of the other "fight again" strats that community wide allow for pile in, attacks, consolidate twice.

Further, the proper phrasing to have it occur after attacks but before consolidation would be "after the unit has made its attacks," or "when this unit attacks". 

"After this unit fights" is using the term for a specific set of actions (pile in, make attacks, consolidate) and not a sub-step, so we use it after a "fight", not within.

 

The targeting question ties into the first. This one is more open to interpretation, but I believe you do not need to charge a target to use Death Grip on it.

The limitation of "not being able to make attacks against enemies you did not charge" is a limiter built into the rules for a "fight". As we determined above, we are acting after a fight, not within one, and so those rules on targeting do not apply.

 

An example of where the rule doesn't apply: Supersonic flyers have an ability that says: "This unit may not be targeted by attacks during the fight phase except by units that can FLY".

This indicates that some of the rules writers believe that the fight phase is bigger and made up of a series of fights, and if they want rules to extend over the entire phase they know that requires extra language.

 

Sadly, this means I was not able to rip my opponent's flyer from the sky with my Preceptor. I settled for the Warlord Archon, whom I charged (just to be on the safe side of either rules interpretation).

[Stray]

It's certainly a wise move to just declare a charge against a unit, AND the potential Death Grip target to be safe. It covers you in an argument, and costs you nothing.

 

That's good advice Bluflash.

 

Would people be more comfortable if we added that as a piece of advice to the FAQ and made mention of the fact that there is some debate around the subject?

 

Ultimately, we'll never all agree all the time, but we can all aim to make the resource as useful as possible, and a compromise like this can be helpful for sure .

 

Thoughts from both sides? 

[Clingy]

I haven’t had any one have issues with it. But maybe I’ve been fortunate.

[Vel'Cona]

Thoughts from both sides? 

 

Since the FAQ here is unofficial and in some cases "best practice" as well as RAW considerations, I see no reason not to add this in.  The takeaway for me is being clear to the opponent about your intentions when you take action, which is something that I've always said is best to maintain an effective social contract on the wargaming tabletop.

[ImperialSquishiness]

FAQ has dropped.

1 questoris/dominus Knight and Armigers = 3CP. 3 questoris/dominus knights = 6cp.

 

Forgeshrine is now tosh. Can't use it to charge relic weapons

 

Vulker gers reroll 1s only on the nearest unit when you declare the shots.

 

Raven only gets the heavy as Assault when you advance

 

Freeblades in a SHA still get qualities and Burdens

[Lysere]

FAQ has dropped.

1 questoris/dominus Knight and Armigers = 3CP. 3 questoris/dominus knights = 6cp.

 

Forgeshrine is now tosh. Can't use it to charge relic weapons

 

Vulker gers reroll 1s only on the nearest unit when you declare the shots.

 

Raven only gets the heavy as Assault when you advance

 

Freeblades in a SHA still get qualities and Burdens

Implying the forgeshrine wasn't tosh to begin with. The raven one is also just a clarification that yes there is no penalty to the heavy weapons when advancing because they are now assault.

 

The cp are nice and now I need to work on my pure knight list ideas.

[Vel'Cona]

It is truly a glorious day for the Knights of the Imperium and the Scions of the Omnissiah! :D

[Charlo]

01001000 01100001 01110000 01110000 01111001 00100000 01100010 01100101 01100101 01110000 01110011

[Tyriks]

The Raven one also means an Armiger with stubber that moves but doesn't advance gets a penalty.

[Vel'Cona]

The Raven one also means an Armiger with stubber that moves but doesn't advance gets a penalty.

 

Yup, as we've previously discussed it is a bit silly.  But hey, can't have it all and honestly if the Stubber was one's reason for taking the Armiger I'd question the motivation, there.  IMO the Stubber should be Assault 3 anyway but GW doesn't want it to completely outclass the Storm Bolter as an upgrade in other armies (for whatever reason).

[Marshal Reinhard]

 

FAQ has dropped.

1 questoris/dominus Knight and Armigers = 3CP. 3 questoris/dominus knights = 6cp.

 

Forgeshrine is now tosh. Can't use it to charge relic weapons

 

Vulker gers reroll 1s only on the nearest unit when you declare the shots.

 

Raven only gets the heavy as Assault when you advance

 

Freeblades in a SHA still get qualities and Burdens

Implying the forgeshrine wasn't tosh to begin with. The raven one is also just a clarification that yes there is no penalty to the heavy weapons when advancing because they are now assault.

 

The cp are nice and now I need to work on my pure knight list ideas.

 

 

Agreed. Shrine was tosh to begin with. Chances are a random hit relic ranged weapon (like the Terryn unique RFBC) is actually an even WORSE choice to use the shrine on. The improved roll ability is literally wasted. I mean its a waste to begin with in any case, the difference is academic and is merely discussing degrees of self-hurt here, don't use the thing at all. This hasn't changed since before.

[PiñaColada]

I'm a bit disappointed they didn't answer my adamantium knight questions that I've also brought up in this thread. I don't feel like it's completely obvious how it works in some specific scenarios and some clarification would have been nice. Oh well, I'm probably not going to play ulker anyways since I want a preceptor and some armiger in the force and the tradition is a bit wasted then..

[Stray]

We did pretty well with our rules interpretations though Ladies and Gents. The Knight hive mind correctly ruled on both the Traditions in the official FAQ. Keep up the good work!

[point_Zer0]

So now forgeworld knights can pick any knight house at last) And get those 3 or 6 cp. My porphyrion is jumping on my fridge to show how happy he is. So cute ^_^

[Stray]

Updated the in-house FAQ to reflect the changes now the official FAQ has dropped.

[Clingy]

Thanks Stray