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Reasons for Guilliman's unpopularity (in Universe)

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#26
Ugolino

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What are you talking about, dude? Avoiding Terra? He attacked the Traitor fleets as soon as he was able to break free from the Ruinstorm, allowing Sanguinius and the Blood Angels to make their prophesied stand at Terra. We also know that he's well aware of the effects of the Ruinstorm, given his efforts at establishing the Pharos, and I believe those books do in fact mention that he is stuck, and not just from lack of trying.

 

Plus, even if he didn't repeatedly try, we know the Ruinstorm is one of the biggest Warp Storms to affect the galaxy. It's the equivalent of seeing a hurricane nearing your airport, thunderclouds everywhere, and knowing you probably shouldn't try to leave by plane. He doesn't need to get airborne and crash to know that it's not a good idea.

When he had the chance, he went off to...not help Terra. He explicitly, intentionally, avoided actually fighting Horus at the only place that mattered to the Imperium in the long run. And knew Sanguinus was suicidal. That's pretty terrible in terms of loyalty, not just to the Emperor but to one of the brothers he actually "cared" about.

 

The point, again, falls flat given everything from a 747 to a biplane is zipping around the hurricane without a care in the world and Mr. Professional Pilot decides that he doesn't need to make that life saving delivery after all until the wind doesn't look quite so scary.


Edited by Ugolino, 15 June 2018 - 07:42 AM.


#27
Morovir

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If you read Wolfsbane, it's clear that Guilliman is heading towards Terra, and harrying the rear lines of the traitor forces as he goes, forcing Horus to push for Terra without proper consolidation. Also, it seems as if Slaves to Darkness will also go into more detail on Guilliman's activities.


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#28
Ugolino

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If you read Wolfsbane, it's clear that Guilliman is heading towards Terra, and harrying the rear lines of the traitor forces as he goes, forcing Horus to push for Terra without proper consolidation. Also, it seems as if Slaves to Darkness will also go into more detail on Guilliman's activities.

Either way, Ruinstorm's already spelled out he's consciously dawdling rather than doing his job. We'll see if Slaves to Darkness gives more information or tries to whitewash Guilliman.
 



#29
Morovir

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In what way is he consciously dawdling?


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#30
Ugolino

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In what way is he consciously dawdling?

Ending of Ruinstorm. He explicitly stated he was going to avoid reaching Terra- and mumbles something unconvincing about penance as his excuse for basically abandoning the throneworld- and shrugged off Sanguinus's deathwish as though his brother's intended death was irrelevant to him. Basically, it paints a very ugly picture of what sort of "brother" and "son" Guilliman is.



#31
Ascanius

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Just don't bother, guys. He's either trolling or can't let go of his headcanon.


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#32
The Native

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The great thing about literature is how it can be interpreted.

 

I was never a fan of the Ultramarines or Gulliman until I began reading the Horus Heresy. Now he's amongst my top 5 favourite Primarchs. 

 

Roboute isn't "unpopular". Curze is unpopular. Angron is unpopular. Hell, even Russ is "unpopular" amongst his brothers if looked at from a certain angle.

 

Gulliman may not be loved by his brothers but he doesn't need to be, nor does he care. He's the definition of blandly efficient. And there is a charm in that. In a universe of demi-gods and over the top tropes he's perhaps the most human of the Primarchs - despite being a savant administrator. 


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#33
The Observer

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Concession accepted that Guilliman was a secessionist control freak who didn't try to find out if his own father, brothers, and Imperium were intact despite very little reason to consider their deaths plausible. It was an act of betrayal.

 

No such concession given, so stop putting words in my mouth. That's bad form. He didn't try to find out what happened to Terra and his brethren because he had little to go by. What was he supposed to do in your mind? Ride through the Ruinstorm and kill himself like a madman for honour? That's not honour, that's lunacy. He did the ultimately pragmatic thing; assume the worst and keep the idea alive.

 

 

I see you've given up on actually offering counterpoints for Guilliman's canonical actions.

 

As I said, Hitchen's Razor. You make statements and claim truths without offering any form of evidence. As such I will dismiss it without the need for evidence. In this thread you've made some pretty far out claims without delivering anything that resembles proper basis, analysis or citation for it, and I am not the first one to call you out on it.

 


Character bias is irrelevant to a consistent trend of Guilliman's disloyalty and lack of honor including background events- indeed, some of the most damning condemnations in the Secundus arc come from those you tried to portray as Guilliman partisans.

 

Indeed some accusations come from what can be defined as his allies in the imperium secundus arc, but what people make him out to be is still not identical with what we are shown that he is through his own narrative perspective. Why would he think of keeping the Imperium alive, even in a different form and why would he go through moral consideration if all he desired was mere power? Are you arguing that he is schizophrenic too? If you by now haven't managed to understand the difference between how a character characterizes themselves and how they are characterized by other characters, then I am afraid I can't help you.

 


The traitor primarchs can be argued to have had better intentions and more honesty than Guilliman.

 

And yet their intentions burned worlds, enslaved billions to the dark compliance, corrupted just as many people, destroyed the Emperor's dream and let to a ten millenia long downfall of the Imperium into the decrepit carcass that it is today. As I said, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.


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#34
Marshal Rohr

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Man I was really hoping for a fun fluff discussion
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Your opinion is important, and someone posting here probably does care what you think. You should go tell them. Remember that it really hurts to come up with an idea you care about and have no one else care. Go care about something and tell them what you think. Now. Think of what it would have meant to you when you were young.

 

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#35
rendingon1+

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I'm not a fan of G but maaaan...
Though I must admit that he jumped to "emperor is dead, terra has fallen" conclusion without any proof (it's not pragmatic and not logical) and he tried to play his brothers which didn't quite work. And let's not forget IS arc is a worst thing that happened to HH series.

Edited by rendingon1+, 15 June 2018 - 12:00 PM.

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#36
Marcus Arias

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@Marshal Rohr: me too, it started promising. There's some good points, but logic has been thrown out of the window.

 

Could we get back on track guys?



#37
DogWelder

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So getting back on topic, I really like the DAOT angle on things because it means that Guilliman may remind the Emperor of similar people he met during the DAOT and who he saw make the same mistakes.


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#38
Bulwyf

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I thought I disliked Bobby G but then I read this thread. Wow. Did Bobby G take someone's lunch money? unsure.png

 

Back to the original post...good thoughts there. I always thought it interesting that out of all the primarchs the only one that was actively looking for the role of himself and his legion was Bobby G. He was training his boys to be ready for a post combat role in society at the conclusion of the Great Crusade. I was impressed by that then and still am. You could see when some of the other primarchs started to reach conclusions of their role and their legions role in Imperium life after the crusade ended they came to far more darker conclusions.

 

And to be fair to them, they were right. We've seen hints and outright nods in various HH novels that the Big E was going to either get rid of them or use them like strapping Magnus into the Golden Throne type device to use him as the Astronomican energy course. Not good endings.

 

But instead of going dark with this question, Bobby G was training his boys to be statesmen, artists, etc. He wanted them to use their genetic super human gifts to adopt to a peace time life. Again, retrospect makes this seem silly, but the interior logic of it is quite sound.  It also goes to show that Bobby wanted an Imperium of enlightened science driven society that rewarded good works and deeds on their own merit. I don't know if we've seen this in the HH novels but it makes me wonder if Bobby was more open minded with working with xenos races.

We know later on he had to work with the Eldar/Ynarri in 40k but Bobby seems to have the most...what we in this world in Western society would deem the best moral view for humanity. He seems to be more accepting, more tolerant, and more progressive.

 

Which I think if events had went differently would have led to some serious problems with Bobby and the Big E.


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#39
karden00

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As Fulgrim pointed out in his novel, he's arrogant, blinkered, and Ultramar-centric- basically, a secessionist waiting to happen and everyone can see it- and actively alienated his more talented brothers while shamelessly stealing their ideas for his own. Basically, a shameless and grasping hick with the ego of a warlord who basically sat out the Great Crusade while other Legions actually did the footwork.


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#40
Brother Styphus

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A person is inferring, and others are disregarding the books because they don't like the original person's inferences. If you don't like someone's points and think it's getting off discussion, don't create a post just stating this. Want a fun fluff discussion? Make it a fun fluff discussion.

 

Other Primarchs state their dislike of him. Inferring that he's unpopular isn't a stretch. To say they hate him, I think only Lorgar can be attributed to this.

 

The other main inference is that Guilli only cares about his empire. In Forgotten Empire he builds up his empire instead of doing everything in his power to aid Terra, uses a xenos beacon for navigation, ignores Alex Pollux's personal message from Terra and sequesters him and his fleet, and almost makes himself the Emperor of this empire. 

 

We have Lorgar hating him in First Heretic, Ferrus talking smack to him with Fulgrim, Lion dissing him the The Lion short story as well as in Forgotten Empire. The codex astartes Guilli wrote almost caused another major conflict between legions. There are bits in novels where his decissions rub the reader in the wrong way. 


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#41
Marshal Rohr

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If you look at the warp route map from the open days, you can see Guilliman wasn’t able to do anything until the rainstorm abated. So if his decision was to hold in Ultramar or send everything you have to Terra (which he couldn’t have contacted) the obviously pragmatic decision was to hold fast. Where the line get blurry is the Imperium Secundus - something even Guilliman himself doubts was the right course of action. It’s fair to criticize the way he handled staying in a Ultramar. It’s also the foundation for his success in reorganizing the Imperium after the Emperors death (this is not approval for his division of the legions).

Your opinion is important, and someone posting here probably does care what you think. You should go tell them. Remember that it really hurts to come up with an idea you care about and have no one else care. Go care about something and tell them what you think. Now. Think of what it would have meant to you when you were young.

 

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#42
Kinstryfe

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So let's say that there are two large populations of an endangered animal left in the world. The largest is in Sanctuary A, and a smaller but still viable population lives in Sanctuary B. You are in charge of Sanctuary B, and have sworn oaths to protect this endangered animal at all costs. Suddenly, you lose contact with not only Sanctuary A, but most of the known world. You can't verify if anything actually happened out there, or whether Sanctuary A is still out there. They could be perfectly fine, or you could be the Steward of the only remaining population of the species you are sworn to protect. You've tried calling, but nobody picks up the phone. You've tried sending interns to check on them, but you never hear from them again either. You even dig up an old shortwave radio but still can't get any information on Sanctuary A or the wider world outside. So, being sworn to protect this species, you have two options:
Option 1, you assume the worst has happened. If it did, you are now nurturing the only large population of this animal. If it did not, then both populations are still alive and well.
Option 2, you assume the best has happened. If it did, then you sacrifice your population to go and aid the larger population. If it didn't, you sacrifice your population, and the animal is now extinct.

The fanatics among us, who give more loyalty to the Sanctuary Preservation Corporation than to the endangered species itself may say that you go check on Sanctuary A and the head offices, and make sure that the company is doing well. Those who are legitimately loyal to the endangered species, however, will do what is necessary to preserve the species, even if it may not be in the best interests of the company running the Sanctuary. Guilliman was and is loyal to humanity first, and The Emperor second. Given the choice between loyalties, he chose the option with the greatest potential for humanity to survive.

Two common threads among many Primarchs are either a warrior culture, or fanatacism. These are the two main things that led to most falls to chaos. Magnus was fanatical about knowledge, Fulgrim about perfection, Lorgar about worship. Angron was obsessed with warrior prowess, as were many other Primarchs, even loyalists. Guilliman didn't really fit in. He was a statesman. He was the boring kid who becomes high school class president because everyone admits that, yeah, he'd probably be really good at it and nobody else really wants to. It seems to me that he wasn't necessarily beloved by all his brothers, but only a few seemed to actively dislike him. Being able to fly? That's awesome. Unparalleled sorcerer? Awesome. Clouding minds to hide your presence? Awwwweeessssoooommmmeeeee. Being really good at juggling thousands of supply lines, diplomatic envoys, and trade agreements? LAAAAMMMMMMEEEEEE.

Guilliman's sin isn't being derelict in duty, or deficient in prowess as a military Commander. It's that he was boring.
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#43
Gorgoff

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If I'd live in that universe I'd prefer Gulliman above all other Primarchs _because_ he is boring. He is no maniac, weirdo, psychopath, murderer or in other ways twisted like all the other abominations. And thats why the other creatures don't like him very much.
He's a regular dude and an all-rounder which most of them are not. The latter means that every Primarch lacks in several areas compared to him. They may be much better in their specific field of warfare or softskills but that is not what they see when they around him.
Let's face it. They are huge egomaniacs and hate feeling inferior to anybody.
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#44
slitth

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What I have read of Guilliman, he seem like a optimist and a follower.

He is trying to build an utopian empire, that is based on trust, obedience and naivete.

 

I would expect that some of his brothers would find this foolish.

 

Jaghatai would find the notion complete compliance lagging.
"There is only one unforgivable lie"

 

Curze, Russ and Alpharius would think that his world would be to open to corruption.

 

The other would probably think the by the book way of doing things to narrow minded


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#45
Fortnight

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You know what they say, taking an idea and making it worse is plagiarism, taking an idea and making it better is genius/art/culture. (Depending on which version of this quote we are talking about.)

Gulliman was disliked, because not only was he successful, he made it seem easy. There is nothing more frustrating than toiling away and making but slow progress, to find another casually ignoring the pitfalls and predations we are ourselves subjected to, while they stride further. Conversely, there is also no one more respected who upon completion of some great work shows it to be a simple endeavor, yet built beyond the varied failures and false-starts of others. Often that which is seen as beautiful at completion is abrasive in construction. This is why Gulliman is loved and hated, equally and never strongly in either fashion.

Edited by Fortnight, 15 June 2018 - 09:01 PM.


#46
bluntblade

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Jaghatai would find the notion complete compliance lagging.

"There is only one unforgivable lie"

As a WS fan, I'm really interested to see how the two interact in the wake of the Siege.

 

Regarding sitting out the Crusade: I'm gonna pull something from Betrayer. Khârn, going by the battle honours he can read on Orfeo's warplane while they're fighting (and while Khârn's sharp, I'm sure he's missing a lot of detail because, you know, he's hurt already and Orfeo's trying to kill him) muses that Orfeo has fought in more campaigns on the Eastern Fringe than he'd ever been aware of. Those Five Hundred worlds have been conquered, and they're just the conquests that are nice and close to the empire Guilliman started out with.

 

As for a secessionist everyone thinks is waiting to happen... Dorn, who's ready enough to doubt some of his other brothers (and yes, there's dramatic irony here because the Khan is misjudged) refuses to believe Guilliman could ever turn against the Imperium, once the midden has hit the windmill.


Edited by bluntblade, 15 June 2018 - 11:23 PM.


#47
Leif Bearclaw

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I always thought it interesting that out of all the primarchs the only one that was actively looking for the role of himself and his legion was Bobby G. He was training his boys to be ready for a post combat role in society at the conclusion of the Great Crusade. I was impressed by that then and still am. You could see when some of the other primarchs started to reach conclusions of their role and their legions role in Imperium life after the crusade ended they came to far more darker conclusions.

 

And to be fair to them, they were right. We've seen hints and outright nods in various HH novels that the Big E was going to either get rid of them or use them like strapping Magnus into the Golden Throne type device to use him as the Astronomican energy course. Not good endings.

 

And that's one of the biggest mistakes the HH series has taken recently imo. They really seem to be shifting the narrative from a grand tragedy, and a golden age lost to 'The Imperium always sucked beyond belief, Horus was right to rebel and the biggest schmucks in the entire setting are the loyalists'.

 

It's grimderp/nihilism at its finest, just black on black without even the mad, over the top satirical styling of old 40k (or its 2000AD inspiration) to break the darkness induced audience apathy.



#48
Azekai

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And that's one of the biggest mistakes the HH series has taken recently imo. They really seem to be shifting the narrative from a grand tragedy, and a golden age lost to 'The Imperium always sucked beyond belief, Horus was right to rebel and the biggest schmucks in the entire setting are the loyalists'.

 

It's grimderp/nihilism at its finest, just black on black without even the mad, over the top satirical styling of old 40k (or its 2000AD inspiration) to break the darkness induced audience apathy.

 

On the whole, that seems like a shallow read of the series.

 

The Imperium of Man's golden age  was never perfect, but matters are far worse in the 41st millennium, and I don't buy that black-on-black stuff for a minute. You need shades of grey in order to have complex characters and/or setting, and even the Master of Mankind screws up. I think that is the takeaway, not 'Horus is somehow vindicated for rebelling.'


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#49
Plaguecaster

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To be honest I really think he is one of the more interesting Primarchs solely because he is one of the most normal ones and doesn't have some quirk / punchline like Fulgrim seeking perfection, Angron being a Berserk madman or Ferrus being Ferrus with how bad any of his portrayals are in the BL novels

Know no Fear was probably my favourite portrayals of him as it really showed his strengths and that he wasn't some pen pusher but a gifted commander able to turn disaster into a victory

I may be a chaos player but to be fair I prefer him far more than the traitor Primarchs who really come off as a joke sometimes
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#50
Vazzy

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Guilliman reminds me a lot of the top students in my law class. They're driven, successful, well adjusted and you know they'll get the job done. They're quick, efficient, and are able to articulate ideas you say much better than you can yourself.

You hate them, because they're so damn good, and no one should ve that good, but you also have to admit they're supremely talented. I think thats why so many of Guillmans brothers(and fans) are so hostile to him. Deep down its what you wish you could do, but you know you really can't.
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