Calas Typhon Posted August 15, 2018 Share Posted August 15, 2018 I think one of the biggest points in the book for me was the realisation that Demon Primarchs could be completely destroyed. As in, not thrown back to the warp, but utterly erased as alluded to in the Obliterator Volk, Perturabo and Angron fight. The whole Iron Warriors V World Eaters fight was brilliant I will add even if it was broken away from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted August 15, 2018 Share Posted August 15, 2018 I think one of the biggest points in the book for me was the realisation that Demon Primarchs could be completely destroyed. As in, not thrown back to the warp, but utterly erased as alluded to in the Obliterator Volk, Perturabo and Angron fight. The whole Iron Warriors V World Eaters fight was brilliant I will add even if it was broken away from. I think it was more just a reminder that the Daemon Primarchs aren't invulnerable, they're just like any other daemon. A Bloodthirster is 'immortal', and can only be banished rather than killed, but if Khorne becomes displeased with it, it can withdraw the essence that forms it. The Daemon Primarchs are the same. They're daemons now, with all the benefits and drawbacks that are associated with that. They have endless power, so long as they continue pleasing their patron, which in Khorne's case means bloodshed. I do, however, think that Angron was more just at risk of being banished, rather than annihilated, at least in this situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkChaplain Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 True Death isn't new, though. There have been various cases where a daemon entity, whether true daemon or Daemon Prince, have been utterly annihilated from existence, rather than simply banished from real space. And hey, Horus' soul gets completely obliterated the same way by the Emperor. I haven't read Old Earth yet (currently working through Born of Flame, never read Sons of the Forge before and figured a full refresher on the novellas would be good before Old Earth), but apparently there was a True Death in that too. M'kar from the Calth arc got obliterated in the Uriel Ventris series with the help of a Shard of Erebus, too. Come to think of, with the Shard of Erebus being involved, it may even be possible that the Emperor is going to use the Athame carried by Oll in the final confrontation to create his mind-blast... And then there was Eisenhorn, with Prophaniti being destroyed by Gregor. It really comes down to immense power and possibly a tool of ritualistic nature that may somehow connect to who the daemon once was, I guess. But then again, we only know about NAMED daemon entities getting destroyed. For all we know, millions of lesser daemons could be getting annihilated left and right, but in the end, there's no way we could ever even know, because they do not have an individual identity. When the lesser daemons get banished, there's nothing to distinguish them from all the others in the warp - they're likely just going back into the pot that is their god's essence, to be recycled. Speculation time: A daemon with a true name and identity, fully aware of itself and with its own desires, is a different thing on a conceptual level. It stands apart by virtue of being self-aware and driven by its own mind, rather than the base cravings of its deity. But that also makes it vulnerable in the sense that its identity and driving force can be targeted. If they lose that, all that could be left over to be reassimilated by the warp-deity is their daemonic essence itself, not their mind. When they get banished, their mind remains intact and able to reform itself if it gathers enough strength. Mortarion obviously didn't get obliterated by Kaldor Draigo, but was banished for a long amount of time. The same goes for Angron during the First War for Armageddon (or rather, for Ullanor, which makes even more sense now as a target, doesn't it?). They were out cold, stuck in the warp, but with their minds intact and able to replenish their energy and wait for another chance to invade real-space. Cut off that sense of identity, and the daemon ceases to exist as that same powerful entity, because it is literally the glue holding it together. I think Angron in particular was vulnerable on Deluge because he wasn't just dying due to the insane amount of bloodshed required to keep him rooted in real-space, but also because he seemed to be giving up and succumbing to his base nature even more. The way Obliterator-Volk phrases it, it is highly implied that Angron himself was desiring a way out, to cease that wretched, pained existence that only got amplified by his turning. I'd argue that his near-fading/banishment into the warp was in large part a product of his despair and weakness of character, and not just down to a lull in the slaughter. Almost the entire conversation between Angron and Perturabo was showing his resignation. Red sands, this is how it must end, all will run red, etc. He's on the edge, but Perturabo pulls him back by showing him trust, reminding him of this and that, and reinforcing the notion that Angron has a choice, multiple even. In the end, psychic battles always come down to strength of will. Eisenhorn triumphed with a will of adamantium, the Emperor abandoned his hesitation at the final moment, utterly convinced that Horus needed to be annihilated. But Angron's will was severely weakened. Fulgrim meanwhile was enjoying himself, and his innate pride and flamboyant nature basically keep him stable, because he's such an arrogant prick, he's never lacking in self-awareness and personal desire. But he is still vulnerable to the True Name thing, due to being a daemon entity now. But if push came to shove, I don't think it'd have taken much psychic force to overcome Angron and wipe him out of existence... But again, it's speculation on my part. It also involves a few other things, like the way Vulkan went up against raw Waaagh! energy in The Beast Must Die, and even there I got the impression that Vulkan was completely destroyed on a soul-level, subsumed by the Waaagh! energy and wiped out of existence, unable to perpetuate any longer. At least that was what I thought the whole novel built up to through his chapter interludes. He wanted release from his eternal existence as well, and went into that final confrontation believing it to be his last. When he resurrected from dust in The Unremembered Empire, his soul was still relatively intact, albeit jumbled and messed up to the point of insanity. He still recognized Curze as an object of hatred, though. But that was bodily termination, not soul-annihilation on the level of daemons. That Waaagh! energy should have had the pure force to eclipse even the Emperor's psychic might when it came to Horus, though, and we have not seen or heard anything about Vulkan since then. I pray he remains dead and GW doesn't cheapen it by bringing him back post-Dark Imperium... it'd kinda screw a beautiful thing and mess with internal consistency of how the whole soul thing works in the setting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manchu warlord Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 Just finished it. I liked it. I enjoyed reading and experiencing the despaired atmosphere the warriors of the traitor legions were going through. One thing I did not like was how John French had to indicate the character's name between different bodies; Maloghurst. Layak. Volk. Maloghurst. Layak. Volk. Ekkadon. Argonis..... etc. Having it done this way does not allow any point of views from the Primarchs, which, for a novel like this, I feel it would be more exciting to get to read from their perspective, at least from perturabo's and Lorgar's; the others don't really feature much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 Different strokes. I wouldn’t have enjoyed another Primarchs train of thought novel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 I'm really enjoying it though I admit I'm finding the bizarre scene of passage for Lorgar and his buddy to be just... strange. I won't say more for spoilers, but it's weird and feels muddy. I'm trying to make sense of it. Good to see Lorgar is still a manipulative :cuss though. This book still gives me the heebie jeebies about Word Bearers. What a Legion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roomsky Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 Just finished it. I liked it. I enjoyed reading and experiencing the despaired atmosphere the warriors of the traitor legions were going through. One thing I did not like was how John French had to indicate the character's name between different bodies; Maloghurst. Layak. Volk. Maloghurst. Layak. Volk. Ekkadon. Argonis..... etc. Having it done this way does not allow any point of views from the Primarchs, which, for a novel like this, I feel it would be more exciting to get to read from their perspective, at least from perturabo's and Lorgar's; the others don't really feature much. Can't say I agree, primarch perspectives have caused more harm than good in this series. I appreciate the want to accentuate some of their human characteristics in books like Ruinstorm, but even then there wasn't much that couldn't have been finagled into an Ra situation: the sharing of visions, and the confiding of secrets. It keeps characters like say, Guilliman, appearing like some kind of fragile wreck the entire story, despite the fact he wouldn't demonstrate any of this outwardly. I thought it worked even harder against Wolfsbane, with Russ only being a primarch by name, bring down his physical feats a bit and you could call him any Wolf Lord. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 My favourite Primarch roles in full novels have all had those Primarchs at a distance, only dipping into their thoughts for a few Chapters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted August 18, 2018 Share Posted August 18, 2018 Wraight does a great job with Khan in Warhawk...you do get insight into his character, but I would not call him a PoV character Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted August 18, 2018 Share Posted August 18, 2018 This does actually tie into something I heard yesterday in a podcast: Robert Greene talking about the notion that powerful people impress and intimidate by saying little. He also says that the longer you talk, the more likely you are to say something foolish, and that totally applies to the depiction of Primarchs. The more heavily they and their thoughts feature, the higher the chance that they'll do or say something that, if it doesn't seem foolish, at least jars with the notion of a demigod who is superior in all mental and physical senses (and arguably this applies to Space Marines too, or even smart mortals). The instance really springs to mind for me is Fulgrim, in which we're given a POV of hims where he throws two strops at once and argues with a voice in his head about it. Not to mention the "oh, so my conscience talks to me now!" thing. If that scene was confined to the perspectives of Kaeseron and Demeter, it would still be awkward, but less so. McNeill's presentation of Magnus is much stronger because there's rather less of his perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biscuittzz Posted August 18, 2018 Share Posted August 18, 2018 Can someone tell me what the deal with Perturabo is? He betrayed the Emperor because he was basically used only as a weapon and thrown into meat grinders without any gratitude, but is now doing the exact same thing for Horus. Slaves showcases just how much nearly all of the traitors are slaves to the chaos gods with the comparison Perturabo was a slave to the Emperor first followed by doing the bidding of Horus after the betrayal. He seems to realise he's just swapped one uncaring master for another and claims that now he will answer to nobody but himself.........but at the end is still doing Horus' work for him? I don't get the arc so maybe someone more enlightened can shed some more insight on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted August 18, 2018 Share Posted August 18, 2018 Presumably Perturabo plans to go his own way after the Siege or believes Horus will have to make him his right/left hand, given where his brothers are at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Marshal Posted August 18, 2018 Share Posted August 18, 2018 Can someone tell me what the deal with Perturabo is? He betrayed the Emperor because he was basically used only as a weapon and thrown into meat grinders without any gratitude, but is now doing the exact same thing for Horus. Slaves showcases just how much nearly all of the traitors are slaves to the chaos gods with the comparison Perturabo was a slave to the Emperor first followed by doing the bidding of Horus after the betrayal. He seems to realise he's just swapped one uncaring master for another and claims that now he will answer to nobody but himself.........but at the end is still doing Horus' work for him? I don't get the arc so maybe someone more enlightened can shed some more insight on this. He's in too deep to just jump ship now. His only real option is to keep going along until the opportunity arises to jump ship, which would presumably be after the Emperor is dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pathstrider Posted August 18, 2018 Share Posted August 18, 2018 I think there is an element that Perturabo made a choice to serve Horus, which is what he gives to Angron to. There is also a strong element of seeing the job done, I think. Also, he does get made high marshal, which I guess is something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarineRaider Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 So many books and years ago as Horus is sitting in his command chair viewing/listening to streams of reports of the loyalist fighting back against his loyal Primarchs and wondering how he is going to win with this group of losers. 30-40 books later he is still wondering.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 Can someone tell me what the deal with Perturabo is? He betrayed the Emperor because he was basically used only as a weapon and thrown into meat grinders without any gratitude, but is now doing the exact same thing for Horus. Slaves showcases just how much nearly all of the traitors are slaves to the chaos gods with the comparison Perturabo was a slave to the Emperor first followed by doing the bidding of Horus after the betrayal. He seems to realise he's just swapped one uncaring master for another and claims that now he will answer to nobody but himself.........but at the end is still doing Horus' work for him? I don't get the arc so maybe someone more enlightened can shed some more insight on this. I'd say partly because Perturabo chose to side with Horus, whereas he had no such choice with the Emperor. Secondly, because now he's actually being given the recognition for his position that he deserves, being the High Marshall of Horus' forces, rather than the "unnamed comrade in arms". Lastly, because Perturabo is incredibly vindictive, and he'll do basically anything to show up Dorn. Decades ago, Dorn earned the biggest of grudges by saying that he could design a fortress that Perturabo couldn't defeat. The Lord of Iron is now coming to call that bluff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonreaper666 Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 How did Horus react to Maloghurst's sacrifice and devotion to him?Does Horus see Abaddon and Malo as his sons or friends?(It would be ironic that Chaos Horus has more personal attachments than the Emperor) Does Abaddon have thoughts on how devoted Maloghurst is to Horus? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
no I'm alpharius Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 Can someone tell me what the deal with Perturabo is? He betrayed the Emperor because he was basically used only as a weapon and thrown into meat grinders without any gratitude, but is now doing the exact same thing for Horus. Slaves showcases just how much nearly all of the traitors are slaves to the chaos gods with the comparison Perturabo was a slave to the Emperor first followed by doing the bidding of Horus after the betrayal. He seems to realise he's just swapped one uncaring master for another and claims that now he will answer to nobody but himself.........but at the end is still doing Horus' work for him? I don't get the arc so maybe someone more enlightened can shed some more insight on this. talk about irony, am I right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ascanius Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 Did nobody mention the Telemachon cameo yet? Surprising. That one actually sprung out to me. I actu-chuckled when I saw it. I was delighted! That said, I can't decide whether I want the various Black Legion series characters' big Siege of Terra moments to be depicted explicitly, merely hinted at (i.e. Lheor's maiming shown only in passing, from the point of view of a Blood Angel or whoever it was that fired the bolt that blew up his plasma cannon), or left alone altogether. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ascanius Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 As a fanboy of the Space Wolves I was qute pleased to see Horus only recover from that grievous wound 2/3 into the novel. Russ stuck him good. Horus survived by a hairs thread.Furthermore his sons murdered each other as a consequence of doubt and fear becaise of what Russ did to him. Technically, this isn't quite right: Horus is stabbed by Russ at Trisolian in Wolfsbane, but seemingly recovers enough to lead the Sons of Horus at Beta-Garmon (covered in the forthcoming Titandeath by Guy Haley), and only after that battle does the wound Russ dealt him reopen and put him into a Chaos coma, which happens right before Slaves to Darkness begins. I was initially confused by the timeline, too, although it was cleared up fairly quickly in an early chapter when Maloghurst explicitly states what occurred. Easy to miss it, though, I think! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slan Drakkos Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 I was delighted! That said, I can't decide whether I want the various Black Legion series characters' big Siege of Terra moments to be depicted explicitly, merely hinted at (i.e. Lheor's maiming shown only in passing, from the point of view of a Blood Angel or whoever it was that fired the bolt that blew up his plasma cannon), or left alone altogether. personally, I want it to be a mixture of all three. Maybe have a paragraph showing some world eater devastators led by a plasma gun weilding Centurion mowing down some blood angels before a lucky shot takes said Captain out. Perhaps a brief mention of some thousand sons sorcerers getting pushed by by the white scars. Maybe have no mention of telamachion's exploits, just have the emperor's children pulling their wounded back as they retreat from the Imperial Fists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 @ Ascanius Horus is stabbed by Russ at Trisolian in Wolfsbane, but seemingly recovers enough to lead the Sons of Horus at Beta-Garmon (covered in the forthcoming Titandeath by Guy Haley), and only after that battle does the wound Russ dealt him reopen and put him into a Chaos coma, which happens right before Slaves to Darkness begins. Ah...that makes a lot more sense! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob P Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 @ Ascanius Horus is stabbed by Russ at Trisolian in Wolfsbane, but seemingly recovers enough to lead the Sons of Horus at Beta-Garmon (covered in the forthcoming Titandeath by Guy Haley), and only after that battle does the wound Russ dealt him reopen and put him into a Chaos coma, which happens right before Slaves to Darkness begins. Ah...that makes a lot more sense! I wonder if Beta Garmon will see Horus temporarily returning as 'Traitor Horus' before his transformation into 'Slave-to-Darkness Chaos-undivided Horus'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biscuittzz Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 Can someone tell me what the deal with Perturabo is? He betrayed the Emperor because he was basically used only as a weapon and thrown into meat grinders without any gratitude, but is now doing the exact same thing for Horus. Slaves showcases just how much nearly all of the traitors are slaves to the chaos gods with the comparison Perturabo was a slave to the Emperor first followed by doing the bidding of Horus after the betrayal. He seems to realise he's just swapped one uncaring master for another and claims that now he will answer to nobody but himself.........but at the end is still doing Horus' work for him? I don't get the arc so maybe someone more enlightened can shed some more insight on this. I'd say partly because Perturabo chose to side with Horus, whereas he had no such choice with the Emperor. Secondly, because now he's actually being given the recognition for his position that he deserves, being the High Marshall of Horus' forces, rather than the "unnamed comrade in arms". Lastly, because Perturabo is incredibly vindictive, and he'll do basically anything to show up Dorn. Decades ago, Dorn earned the biggest of grudges by saying that he could design a fortress that Perturabo couldn't defeat. The Lord of Iron is now coming to call that bluff. Coming with the shattered remnants of his legion is he? Iron Warriors haven't fared too well with casualties it seems and I don't know how the authors are going to reconcile this in time for the actual siege. Even the accelerated inductions couldn't boost it that much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 I wouldn't be so sure. The Iron Warriors' supply machine handled losses that no other Legion could stomach in the Crusade, and Perturabo formed the Empire of Iron to ensure that continued. Not to mention massive supplies of slave-soldiers from Dark Compliance actions. Plus the Black Books say that some Legions exceeded their previous sizes during the Heresy. Wouldn't be surprised if the IW were among them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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