Valiant or Castellan?

[Jegind]

After seing the new knights, I NEED to make a Imperial Knight army, but......

 

Im pretty lost in if I should buy a Valiant or Castellan? anyone got any tips on what to get....or maybe why not to get one?

 

 

-Michael

[BluejayJunior]

Do you like giant robots armed with giant harpoons? If so, pick the Valiant!

 

Seriously, though, if you want your Knight to be right on the front lines, then the Valiant is probably a better fit. If you'd prefer it to sit back and shoot things, the Castellan might be better. 

[Heliomanes]

Because of the relic weapons available, there's a good argument to go by the following rule; if you want to use Questor Imperialis as your knight faction, then go for the Valiant. If you want Questor Mechanicus, then go for the Castellan.

Also, it depends on how competitive you want to be. Neither is considered to be overpowered, but in their current state the Castelan makes its way into more competitive lists than the Valiant. Both look great though, and neither are wasted points, so if you play in a more relaxed style you should go for whatever you find more interesting. Which is a good rule to live by anyway - just don't expect the moon.

[Magos Takatus]

To explain myself in arbitrary Skies of Arcadia metaphors I would take Moonstone Cannon over Harpoon Cannon any time. The flamer is tempting but I'd rather laser death rays any time.

[Felstone]

Do you like giant robots armed with giant harpoons? If so, pick the Valiant!

 

Seriously, though, if you want your Knight to be right on the front lines, then the Valiant is probably a better fit. If you'd prefer it to sit back and shoot things, the Castellan might be better. 

 

agreed

[Trixie]

Leaning towards a Castellan myself simply because big guns. Also I loved that Skies of Arcadia game. RIP dreamcast, ahead of its time despite it's clunky oversized and underweighted control pad :P.

[brother_b]

Because of the relic weapons available, there's a good argument to go by the following rule; if you want to use Questor Imperialis as your knight faction, then go for the Valiant. If you want Questor Mechanicus, then go for the Castellan.

 

Also, it depends on how competitive you want to be. Neither is considered to be overpowered, but in their current state the Castelan makes its way into more competitive lists than the Valiant. Both look great though, and neither are wasted points, so if you play in a more relaxed style you should go for whatever you find more interesting. Which is a good rule to live by anyway - just don't expect the moon.

 

I wish they hadn't pigeon holed the relics. I am planning on running QM but wanted that Valiant. Good point made.

[Marshal Reinhard]

I would kill to have Cawl's Wrath for my QI

[DeStinyFiSh]

I went for the Valiant. My Ad Mech is pretty good at shooting already, so a durable unit that wants to get close and can scare assault units with his overwatch makes more sense to me than another unit I want to hold back and shoot with.

 

I am thinking about Taranis for 6+++, Ion Bulwark for 4++ and then either the 2+ armour (more competative) or the Repair a Wound / turn relic.

I think this will make a pretty durable unit the opponent has to pass before reching my gunline.

[Karhedron]

I am thinking both Knights want to be House Raven realistically.

 

Why, you may ask?

 

Because the Advance and fire at full effect trait is great on the Valiant for getting those short-ranged weapons into range. I would probably take Ion Bulwark and 2+ armour relic to help keep it alive at the close range it will be operating in.

 

The Castellan on the other hand also wants to be Raven because the House stratagem of rerolling all 1s (number of shots, to hit, to wound, numbr of wounds), the Strat allows you to reroll ALL of them. Do not underestimate how big a deal it is on a Knight with this much firepower. Again I would take Ion Bulwark for survival and Cawls' Wrath as the relic as this is just so much better than the regular Plasma Decimator. It can kill Primaris, Terminators, bikers etc without overcharging or you can overcharge and use the stratagem to bring down even the heaviest targets.

 

Of the 2, I would cautiously lean towards the Valiant because the Castellan needs to use that 2CP stratagem to get its best value and it will degrade with damage. The Valiant degrades too but even on 1 wound, that great big flamer will still be just as dangerous as ever without the need to spend extra CPs.

[Heliomanes]

I'd be happy to be convinced that the Valiant is a viable choice in a competitive/semi-competitive environment, but extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. I'd be careful about talking it up because we want to like it (and I really do want to like it), because our words might inspire our fellow forumites to buy them and have false expectations.

It's a really cool model with the most 40k armament seen since the invention of the chainfist and the power ram. Still, it will mostly be a 600 point worse Acheron - and the Acheron is rarely considered a competitive choice.

[Karhedron]

Good point, I was comparing the 2 rather than objectively against other options in the Knight codex. I tend to think that the Questoris is better as it is cheaper and more flexible. Also Rotate Ion Shields only costs 1CP on a Questoris. 3CPs pretty much rules it out on the Dominus.

[PiñaColada]

Good point, I was comparing the 2 rather than objectively against other options in the Knight codex. I tend to think that the Questoris is better as it is cheaper and more flexible. Also Rotate Ion Shields only costs 1CP on a Questoris. 3CPs pretty much rules it out on the Dominus.

Yeah, 3CP is insane. Is anyone ever going to roatate io shields on a dominus? FWIW, I think the valiant is stronger. It really can't be charged by most units and the meltas aren't a complete waste on it. Both house Raven, for reasons stated above, and house Hawkshroud , beacuse of the overwatch shenanigans and maintaining movement speed, are good fits for it IMO.

 

That said, I went for the Castellan. I just like the look of it more, but it is effectively less durable than a questoris knight so I'm really not convinced it's actually worth the premium over a crusader.

[Jegind]

Could anyone throw me a full Knights/Armagier list at 2k points?

[Feral_80]

Both are playable, probably not that great actually, but playable. 

I, for one, definitely prefer the Valiant for a number of reasons:

 

• cheaper
• helmet looks slightly better (still not great, but hey)
• being short-range, it actually has a use for those 4x meltaguns (which may be 0 pts officially, but you *do* pay quite a lot for them, and their cost is certainly inbuilt in the chassis of both knights); on the other hand, they are often wasted on the long-range Castellan
• flame cannon is simply invaluable vs the current -1hit nonsense spam, much more than any other weapon; and the relic is just awesome and can be taken by any house
• harpoon is really quite poor, but a potential source for big lolz when it works once in a while
• go Raven for closing in faster, or (my favourite) Hawkshroud to be super-durable
• nothing shorter than another super-heavy will ever want to charge it
• in addition, if Hawkshroud: keep 2 CPs for the stratagem, have your Valiant within 12" of your choice of front-rank distraction-Carnifex and/or other units, and nothing will ever want to charge your other units either.

[Heliomanes]

Counterpoints;

A Castelan has long range, but as with a Crusader, to get the most out of it it will have to stomp something as well as shoot something. If you play it as a static part of a gunline, you're not getting your moneys worth. Having long range is good, not a bad thing.

The relic flamer is connected to Questor Imperialis, which means no House Raven or Krast, no "spend 1 cp to fight like you are unharmed" - which is much better than the Hawkshroud bonus, and so on.

If you want it for the utility of having a flamer, why not go for the cheaper Acheron? Or play as House Mortan, for a single command point you get to ignore all modifiers against your shooting for an entire round. That'll make the Alaitoc eldar sweat.

I think that if you want a Dominus chassis, the strongest choice would be a Raven Castelan with the 4++ warlord trait and the relic plasmagun. It will need an army that can provide it with command points, and a player that is willing to play aggressively with it - but between the "reroll all 1s - including to hit, to wound, and when determining number of shots", and the "fight as if you're unharmed" stratagems you can get some value out of the thing. Still nothing I expect to see at top tables anytime soon - but I'm no seer. I hope to get pleasantly surprised :)

[Stray]

I'm still yet to be, (though open to be), convinced that either of the Dominus Chassis Knights are really very competitive in truth. Obviously that's not the be all, and end all - if you love them, run them! I certainly don't run Cerastus Knights because they're competitive for the points, I do so because I love the models :)

 

That said, be very aware of the weaknesses of that huge point investment you've made...

They are exceedingly vulnerable to assault - far more than even the standard Knights. Good melee infantry especially can eat them alive, cost far fewer points, and there are plenty of ways to avoid overwatch going in...

 

You've some very set in stone, but rather confused weapon options too. When you consider the level of damage you can do with a simple Gallant for roughly half the points, it starts to look pretty bad for the Dominus class.

[Charlo]

I'm really torn on the two (I mean for one I can't use it in Heresy yet so it's lower on the shopping list but I digress...)

 

I'll be playing QM, usually Krast, so while I could get Cawl's Wrath, I wonder how worth the shooty one is... sure it will no doubt be much more consistent, but it will be nowhere near as #FUN.

 

Valiant can support a Gallant moving forward, stomping things, trying to get a harpoon off with the ultimate aim of a double 4+ explosion for MASSIVE critial Mortal wounds among the enemy.

[Heliomanes]

Oh, don't get me wrong. #FUN is always the priority! It's just good to have a reasonable expectation of how competitive a choice is, so you avoid disappointment. I play plenty of nonsensical lists, even in tournaments, because I find them fun and fluffy - but I know what I'm getting and can manage my expectations based on that. Harpoon away, Charlo my friend.

[PiñaColada]

Perhaps the Acheron is simply better, I haven't studied the non-questoris forgeworld that closely knights since I'm not a fan of how they look. But as Stray said, I share the doubt that either of the Dominus knights are actually better than a questoris counterpart. The gallant especially, while certainly not perfect or without weakness, is a steal at 354 points. 

Aside from the 3CP rotate ion shields on Dominus and weird CP rulings for Armigers, I'm really happy with how the codex turned out. Most traditions have an argument going for them, even if some are of course stronger, and almost all knights are good now. The paladin should have gotten some love though.

[Stray]

I certainly wouldn't want to state that the Acheron is competitive, but I think it's very likely to be more so than the Valiant given the similarity in role.

 

The flamers are virtually identical. The Valiant flamer is certainly better against single wound targets, but they perform the same as soon as you start hitting targets with 3+ wounds.

 

The thing with the Acheron is you get a Knight that is silly, silly fast, almost unarguably tougher than the Valiant, and much better in CC. And all  that for roughly 200 points less. 

[Vel'Cona]

I'm still yet to be, (though open to be), convinced that either of the Dominus Chassis Knights are really very competitive in truth. Obviously that's not the be all, and end all - if you love them, run them! I certainly don't run Cerastus Knights because they're competitive for the points, I do so because I love the models

 

Indeed, I felt the same way after the initial release hype.  At this point, I'd consider the Castellan powerful but rather overpriced compared to the efficiency/flexibility of a Crusader, while the Valiant (as has been said elsewhere) loses out by comparison to similar close-range Knights.  They're certainly cool looking and I love concept, but I feel that GW not making these a multi-kit and allowing for more variations (and melee options) was a huge misstep.

[Heliomanes]

They could theoretically fix it easily by allow them to take whatever weapon combo they wanted. I don't think GW will allow it of course, but imagine the double flamer Valiant. BBQ Knight. Or his insane counterpart, Sir Ahab DoubleHarpoon. Would be cool to get a Castelan with one "chaff clearer" arm and one engine-killer arm, much like the titans in the fluff.

[Charlo]

 

 

I'm still yet to be, (though open to be), convinced that either of the Dominus Chassis Knights are really very competitive in truth. Obviously that's not the be all, and end all - if you love them, run them! I certainly don't run Cerastus Knights because they're competitive for the points, I do so because I love the models

Indeed, I felt the same way after the initial release hype. At this point, I'd consider the Castellan powerful but rather overpriced compared to the efficiency/flexibility of a Crusader, while the Valiant (as has been said elsewhere) loses out by comparison to similar close-range Knights. They're certainly cool looking and I love concept, but I feel that GW not making these a multi-kit and allowing for more variations (and melee options) was a huge misstep.

Can't help but agree!

 

The more I think about it the more I'm less fussed about these knights.

 

Each one has maybe one great one and another average (Volcano + Conflagration Vs Plasma + Harpoon).

 

The shoulder weapons are okay but a little boring. The stratagem to fire ONE missile isn't really worth it unless you have something super clutch to do. It should be a 1/3CP deal where it's 1 for one CP or 2 for 3CP.

 

Then we have the Meltaguns, a massive missed opportunity. Why they aren't just multimeltas I don't know. The range would've been nice.

[Karhedron]

Could anyone throw me a full Knights/Armagier list at 2k points?

You might be better off looking in the army list section for inspiration rather than asking in a specific thread.

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/forum/191-adeptus-mechanicus-army-lists/

 

Having said that, at 2000 points I would probably be looking at 3 Questoris plus 2 Warglaives and 2 Helverins. For the Questoris I would definitely field a Gallant and Crusader with the 3rd option being flexible (maybe a Preceptor to bolster the Armigers?).

 

If not running a pure Knight list, I would ditch a couple of the Armigers to bring a small Battalion of allied Imperial guard for extra CPs and ObjSec troop units. Knights really need CPs to operate at their best but you will struggle to get moer than 6 CPs in a 2000 point list without allies. Check out this thread for ideas.

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348152-potential-allies-for-knights/