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Traitor Knights! Update inbound


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GLORY TO THE THIRSTING GODS!

 

I take back all the mean things l said about the dominus being an ugly midget warlord.

 

Edit: just looked at the dominus’ stats.

What an incredibly balanced unit. Yeurgh.

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Thanks for sharing!

I haven't finished my coffee yet this morning but it looks to me like the renegade knight from the 2017 index has come down in points by about 11% or so, my load out is now about 55 points cheaper. 

 

edit: didnt scroll far enough - there are strategems and special rules!

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Such pleasant news. I had banked on us getting nothing beyond points adjustment for the Knight, so getting this full treatment is all icing in my book.

 

It's been a fun morning. In my downtime I've since been doing all manner of comparisons between Armigers and both of the 'Fiends, seeing who does what better at the point costs. It's been a very fun and probably pointless analysis - my favorite type.

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Mind you, this is all armchair statistics so far...

 

Auto-Armiger w/stubber vs. Hades Fiend against Marines... If they're full health and standing still, the Armiger does about .5 more wounds (after saves) than the Fiend. If the Fiend has a Lord reroll, then they're just about even for wound ouput (after saves), ~2. But the Armiger can move without penalty to the autocannons (not to mention nearly twice the range), so it has a big advantage there. But the Fiend has benefits the Armiger doesn't: it can actually be supported. Between strategems, sorcery, and the ability to heal/be healed it's got more utility. No need going into how big of an impact Prescience and Daemonforge have.

 

To me? They're effectively the same, just with different roles. Send the Armiger downfield to act on it's own and be a harasser, shooting stuff up and charging T3 chaff. Keep the Fiend held back and unleash the dakka with your support characters. There's use for both.

 

Melta-Armiger vs. Lasher Fiend... Haven't mathed it out yet, but just glancing at it the Armiger kinda wins. It's melee weapon is (almost) mauler fists and tendrils combined, but you have to choose one or the other. So he gets that... plus the lance and a melta. And yeah, the Fiend gets all those same support benefits, so there's that to account for. If I'm going to send one downfield to go vehicle hunting, it sadly won't be the Mauler. If I get the initiative to run some (super rough) numbers, I'll update. 

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Just want to point out that the warlord relic is going to work amazingly well with Night lords detachments. 

 

The Traitor’s Mark: Enemy units must subtract 1 from their Leadership characteristic whilst they are within 12" of the bearer. Whilst they are within 6" of the bearer, subtract 2 from their Leadership characteristic instead.

 

Night Lords Tactic: Models in enemy units must subtract 1 from their leadership characteristic for each unit with this trait that is within 6" of theirs (to a maximum of -3).

 

Fearsome Visage: Add 1 to the Morale tests of any enemy units within 1" of this unit.

 

==========================

 

So with just these three you are effectively reducing enemy morale by 6. Not sure if there are any other relics you can take to increase this more. Does the nurgle banner also decrease morale?

 

This is pretty sweet. 

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Nurgle banner can be added to that pile, yes. And don't forget about Butcher Cannons, too. That's another -2 if you kill at least one model in a unit. Get you a Night Lord Contemptor with a Butcher Cannon, put some Icons with the Raptors, and you've got yourself a bunch more fear. 

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Chaos spawn also give a morale penalty to enemies units that are within 1 inch of them.

 

And, if you are willing to dip your toes into the daemon codex, one of the named demons (Bel'athor?  Something like that)  has an aura (12"?) leadership debuff, but I'm not sure its worth the hassle and point costs of needing a detachment of demons, especially when his reroll aura is only to demons (unlike the marine demon prince) and he is unmarked meaning the his demon detachment can't have a mark loci.

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Frabjous day calloooo callay! :D

 

I have been waiting SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO long for this bad boy! Cannot wait! Truly we followers of the Dark Pantheon are blessed indeedy this day! My Black Legion shall soon have a Dark Mechanicus cohort to boost them!

 

BCC

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So, MeltArmiger and Lasher/MagmaFiend...

 

Use the Armiger. 

 

Hah, okay, but to break it down a bit more nuanced... Against Marines, they're all pretty much the same with the LasherFiend coming out ahead by ~.4 wounds a round. But that's assuming you shot the Armigers guns at something else. If you focus the fire and shoot the marines before charging... well, I think you can figure out how that'll go. Even when taking account for degrading profiles and/or T3 targets, they are about even in combat. Unless you Daemonforge.

 

Then there's a fight against a Rhino. For the sake of fair play, I assumed both units were within 6" of the Rhino, thus maximizing damage potential for all involved participants. So everyone gets to shoot everything, and everything gets to hit with everything. And yeah... Armiger wins by a mile. The Armiger on average will pop the Rhino between shooting and fighting. But hey, let's assume we didn't shoot at this Rhino and the Armiger is only swinging in combat. If we look at that... then the LashserFiend is better by ~.5 average wounds, and the MagmaFiend by ~1. But what about Daemonforge, you all ask? Well, should you 'roid out the 'Fiend, you'll match an Armiger both shooting and fighting. And degrading profiles? It all kind of evens out, actually. The discussed results stand.

 

And then on and on about other variables like other strategems and sorcery and Daemon support and yadda yadda... But unlike the shooty comparison I did earlier, I don't see these two filling two different niches - they have the same job: run up the field and smash. The Armiger just does it better in all ways. It's faster, it can shoot, and it can put out decent(ish) melee numbers. But they're both T7 W12, so a few good lascannon shots and they're scrap metal anyway, so... eh. I don't know. As I said before, this is all just my (probably) pointless musings for my own analysis. 

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So, MeltArmiger and Lasher/MagmaFiend...

 

You can also point out that the Daemon save is in melee and ranged where the Armiger does not have an invlun save in melee. Honestly though if I was going to take these guys in Chaos I'm going to make them shooty. There are points for the Renegade Helverin and we use the Armiger data slate for them. 

 

I would build these guys up as ranged beasts with some psychic support. Also trying to work them into my Renegade White Scars as well. I'm so happy that Double Avenger Gatling Cannons is still legal! Man oh man! :happy.:

 

Two possible loadouts for the Renegade Knights:

 

Renegade Knight - 518
- Avenger Gatling Cannon x2, Heavy Flamer x2, Heavy Stubber, Stormspear Rocket Pod
 
Renegade Knight - 354
- Reaper Chainsword, Thunderstrike Gauntlet, Heavy Stubber
 
 
354 for that melee knight is crazy awesome! 
 
Edit: 
 
With that you could run something like this... holy cow!
 
 
Total Command Points: 10
 
Super Heavy Detachment - 1062
Command Points: 6
 
[LoW] Renegade Knight (Character) - 354
- Reaper Chainsword, Thunderstrike Gauntlet, Heavy Stubber
 
[LoW] Renegade Knight - 354
- Reaper Chainsword, Thunderstrike Gauntlet, Heavy Stubber
 
[LoW] Renegade Knight - 354
- Reaper Chainsword, Thunderstrike Gauntlet, Heavy Stubber
 
 
Supreme Command Detachment - 540
Command Points: 1
 
[HQ] Daemon Prince - 180 (PL 9)
- Malefic Talons, Hellforged Sword, Wings, Mark of Khorne
- Warlord Trait: Immense Power
- Relic: A'rgath, The King of Blades
 
[HQ] Daemon Prince - 180 (PL 9)
- Malefic Talons, Daemonic Axe, Wings, Mark of Khorne
- Relic: Skullreaver
 
[HQ] Daemon Prince - 180 (PL 9)
- Malefic Talons x2, Wings, Mark of Khorne
- Relic: The Crimson Crown
 
You have 148 points left in a 1750 list. You can spend 9 command points and deep strike all three Daemon Princes and give all three of them relics. What say you?
 
If you drop the wings off the Daemon Princes you might be able to fit in a Helverin for 170 points as well. :tongue.:
 
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So, MeltArmiger and Lasher/MagmaFiend...

 

You can also point out that the Daemon save is in melee and ranged where the Armiger does not have an invlun save in melee. Honestly though if I was going to take these guys in Chaos I'm going to make them shooty. There are points for the Renegade Helverin and we use the Armiger data slate for them. 

 

 

Yeah, I had thought about including that and some other differences, but meh... I rambled on long enough. It's kind of the trade between the two... the Armiger packs a bigger punch, but the Fiend is a bit tougher with the 5++ and healing every turn. And I'm with you: if I convince myself to pick up a pair, I'll make 'em shooty. Seems the better plan. 

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Slight adjustment of the dual gatling cannon knight is needed, as they come with inbuilt heavy flamers.

 

473 without carapace weapon, 518 with stormspear.

 

Ohhh good catch! Updated the post! Thank you! ^_^

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Slight adjustment of the dual gatling cannon knight is needed, as they come with inbuilt heavy flamers.

 

473 without carapace weapon, 518 with stormspear.

Avenger gatling for 75pts, is it cost effective? Of course.

 

Access to 2 same main shooting weapons, is this option useful? Yes.

 

 

But, would double gatlings have good performance? As kinghts becoming popular day by day, if their knights are hunting yours, and your knight has no answer to theirs...is it awkward?

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Avenger gatling for 75pts, is it cost effective? Of course.

 

Access to 2 same main shooting weapons, is this option useful? Yes.

 

 

But, would double gatlings have good performance? As kinghts becoming popular day by day, if their knights are hunting yours, and your knight has no answer to theirs...is it awkward?

 

 

I mean you can mix stuff up as well. You don't have to have everything be shooty. Even with the options Chaos has with them now it is still far less since they don't have a huge range of traits and stratagems. But we can mix and match these boyos with some really interesting allies like the Night Lords I listed above. 

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Dual battlecannons have got me excited. Melee variant, as well. It's great when updated rules breathe new life into models I had no interest in finishing any time this edition.

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Avenger gatling for 75pts, is it cost effective? Of course.

 

Access to 2 same main shooting weapons, is this option useful? Yes.

 

 

But, would double gatlings have good performance? As kinghts becoming popular day by day, if their knights are hunting yours, and your knight has no answer to theirs...is it awkward?

 

 

I mean you can mix stuff up as well. You don't have to have everything be shooty. Even with the options Chaos has with them now it is still far less since they don't have a huge range of traits and stratagems. But we can mix and match these boyos with some really interesting allies like the Night Lords I listed above. 

 

 

We've got lots of options for dealing with knights beyond knights - a lower cost knight with a couple useful strategems offers a mobile shooting option that can wade into assault in later turns; obviously not mandatory but much improved over the Index: Chaos in basically every way.

 

As far as the avenger, it offers a guaranteed high rate of fire and multiple wounds per shot. While the other options offer higher peak damage and improved probability of wounding, they have lower average damage due to random shot volume and wounds. The load out probably depends on what else you're putting on the table - if you need something that does well but not great against both infantry and vehicles, the avenger is a good option, while if you're looking to kill armor, you may want something else (or another unit entirely - two predators annihilators would probably be more effective for roughly the same cost - three for the killshot if you really want to kill a superheavy per turn)

 

A high shot volume shooting unit complements a lot of our deep strike units well, in my opinion. Knight(s) can press forward to clear screening units and ensure that assault units can get to the premium targets rather than spending an extra turn or two bogged down with chaff units.

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Wooohooooooooo! Chaos Armigers and Dominus Knights! Huzzah! House Devine will ride again! Eventually.

 

Seriously though, I'm thrilled. This is gonna be awesome. The conversions they showcased already looked great, this one being my favourite:
22_06_CONTENT_RenKnights_Rhu1.jpg

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Yeah... this has kind of pushed me to the edge. I just picked up the Renegade box game for my son's birthday and I have a feeling House Makabius will be marching to war soon as well.
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