Predator vs Hellblasters vs 2 Razorbacks

[BloodWolves]

Which would be better in a 2000pt game? Assuming there is a both a Captain and Lieutenant around for aura buffs.

 

1 Predator: Autocannon w/ 2 Las

Or

1 Hellblasters Squad w/ Plasma Incinerators

Or

2 Razorbacks w/ 2 Twin Las

Or

2 Razorbacks w/ 1 Twin Las & 1 Assault Cannon?

[Captain Idaho]

Well they all have different elements.

 

1) The Predator is cheapest for anti tank power. It is a reasonable choice and does decent damage.

 

2) Hellblasters are good support to an army but lack the range of dedicated anti tank and relying on a handful of D2 hits to take down a vehicle the other side of the board will hurt - especially being so far away from enemy fire support. You need to be in rapid fire range to really benefit.

 

3) Spreading target saturation into 2 vehicles is obviously good and many people do it. Most expensive of all.

 

And is this your only fire support? The army build is crucial to use of Primaris since they're pretty vulnerable, so Hellblasters need to be carefully considered.

[Tokugawa]

What is your other 1800pts look like?

[Dracos]

Assuming an approx. equal value points in the Razorback vs Hellblaster debate ....

 

 .... The Deadly Seven (Raven Guard Hellblasters) for the win ;)

 

 

Razorback spam is so yesterday, and the models suck as a "tank" model. Predator is barely a step up. Primaris models are gangster, Infantry is easier to get in cover, especially as RG (not you Bobby) and synergize well with infantry HQs.

 

 

Not playing Raven Guard? My first thought is shame on you ;) ... and then I'd thibk still go Hellblasters. :)

[Panzer]

It really depends on the rest of your list imo.

 

If you have no other tanks in your list the Razorbacks will draw all the anti-tank fire and not survive very long (same but worse goes for the Predator) so the Hellblaster would be actually more durable compared. On the other hand any opponent always has some anti-infantry stuff in their list so unless you have multiple Hellblaster and/or Devastators he'll always have enough to give that one Hellblaster a hard time (and probably wipe them turn 1).

 

The AssBacks also serve a different role than Autocannon Predators and LasBacks. Autocannons are best against light vehicle/monster and only semi good against infantry. Assault Cannons shred infantry (especially hordes). Lascannons are best against any type of vehicle/monster. We can continue here with Hellblaster who are best against elite infantry and light vehicle/monster.

All of them are more or less heavy fire support but they all have different ideal targets so they serve different roles in your army composition.

 

On top of that Razorbacks are transports so they can protect your infantry from getting wiped by a nasty alpha strike (and increase their movement range by 3" the turn they disembark).

So ask yourself ... what is your list lacking? If you have figured that out you'll know which one of the mentioned options is the best for your list.

[BloodWolves]

Its to help round off a list. I have a Titan in the list (Crusader w/ Gatling + Thermal Cannon) and an LRC as well. The rest is assorted Troops. Taking Helbrecht and EC. Helbrecht is not sitting back however.. he will be right behind the LRC loaded with Crusader squads, EC and an Apothecary (fluff reasons). I mean I could add a Dreadnought here too because it doesnt have a degrading statline.

 

Consider its a tournament. There are

2 other space marine chapters (UM and BA), 2 chaos (DG and a BL)

3 IG (Cad,Cat,Tal)

2 Tyranid

1 Eldar

1 Dark Eldar

maybe 1 Tau

And maybe (mostly unlikely) 1 Harlequin.

 

Special Rules: Only allowed 1 LoW, 1 Titan Variant (Nothing greater than 25 wounds).

 

As far as i know, UM list has RG, BA does have a knight as well and the Cad has a Baneblade, Catachan and Tallarn both have a knight each and i don't know about the others..

 

I know cards are stacked against the Black Templars...

[Panzer]

Sounds to me like you gonna want some LasBacks to take fire off of your Knight and LRC and to threaten all those enemy LoWs.

[Captain Idaho]

Indeed. 2 vehicles just means I can concentrate on one or the other. 4 vehicles is a problem for the opponent.

[BloodWolves]

I originally set up my list for twin lasbacks well i had one lasback and 1 assault cannon. Im still not sure if we can change loadouts during the campaign.

[Ishagu]

Razorbacks used to be good, now they cost more than Dark Eldar Ravagers and over-costed for what they bring.

Predators are ok, but the new Mini Kights are superior choices, as are Forgeworld Sicarans

 

Hellblasters are great when taken in decent numbers with transports or infiltration.

[Captain Idaho]

Hellblasters are great if people spend over 300pts on a Transport...?

 

Seriously though, Hellblasters suffer from being Primaris, which means you pay for 2 wounds in a game that has so many multi wound weapons it's a waste of points to have less than 3.

 

Razorbacks ARE good in a balanced list and in your army it'll work.

[Ishagu]

The transport is no slouch. A flying vehicle with great firepower. Hide behind buildings, fly over them, never locked in combat.

 

I agree it needs a price drop however, when you look at Astra Militarum tanks and the new Knights especially so.

 

Alternatively you can infiltrate if you play RG, or maybe consider 3/4 Plasma Inceptors.

[Captain Idaho]

In his list how is that good advice? He's a Black Templars player.

 

Your advice is always skewed towards promoting Primaris, when everyone knows they're weak in any competitive scene because of paying for 2 wounds in a multi damage weapons environment, lack cheap transports and rely on plasma guns to fight tanks.

 

You have shares in Primaris?

[Ishagu]

He brought up Hellblasters and the other units. I'm giving advice based on experience with the current game. Everything I've said is entirely on topic, and I even offered further unit considerations within the points he outlined.

My point on Hellblasters was that they need further unit support, so he shouldn't take them without further alterations to the list. That's why I suggested Inceptors who do a similar job.

 

Also, you'll find that Marines in general are weak in the competitive scene. Primaris have a few of the better units in the Marine range, namely Intercessors, Hellblasters and Inceptors.

[autek mor]

the chapter being used also gives the hellblasters extra benefits where as the tanks don't get anything. need more rapid fire? teleport them with deathwatch. want to still shoot after getting charged which tanks can't do? go ultramarines, need more damage? dark angels plasma stratagem. until marine tanks get some kind of benefit through either trait, stratagems that don't force you to take multiple of the same tank or just some kind of special rule, i think massed hellblasters are the better all round support unit depending on what chapter you are playing with.

[Captain Idaho]

In Black Templars this is the opposite. Transports like Storm Ravens, or as the OP mentioned a Land Raider Crusader, need support in the form of target saturation. Hellblasters won't help in this circumstance. Likewise, being Black Templars won't benefit Hellblasters very often.

 

Now, if you have some infantry units with multiple wounds, such as Terminators and also footslogging Crusader hordes, go with Hellblasters as they're great.

[autek mor]

In Black Templars this is the opposite. Transports like Storm Ravens, or as the OP mentioned a Land Raider Crusader, need support in the form of target saturation. Hellblasters won't help in this circumstance. Likewise, being Black Templars won't benefit Hellblasters very often.

 

Now, if you have some infantry units with multiple wounds, such as Terminators and also footslogging Crusader hordes, go with Hellblasters as they're great.

 

very true, i actually forgot the templars existed when i put up my post. 

[Dracos]

I originally set up my list for twin lasbacks well i had one lasback and 1 assault cannon. Im still not sure if we can change loadouts during the campaign.

As noticed I (as Raven Guard) prefer Hellblasters, but definitely would suggest Twin Las-backs for your army. Everything in context :) With the rise of Armiger Knights (nod to Ishagu) it’s a better long term investment for a Templar.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I would go HB. I don’t run any armor. As noted they can be buffed too. Just take standard issue. It’s fantastic.

[Tokugawa]

 

 

In Black Templars this is the opposite. Transports like Storm Ravens, or as the OP mentioned a Land Raider Crusader, need support in the form of target saturation. Hellblasters won't help in this circumstance. Likewise, being Black Templars won't benefit Hellblasters very often.

 

Now, if you have some infantry units with multiple wounds, such as Terminators and also footslogging Crusader hordes, go with Hellblasters as they're great.

very true, i actually forgot the templars existed when i put up my post.

Hey, take it easy. Competitive 40K actually forgot the Templars existed, too.

[Aegir_Einarsson]

Competetive 40k forgot about all adeptus astartes codex chapters exist

[Ishagu]

Lol yeah. In fairness you're not seeing any of the codex chapters on any of the top tables.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Granted it was a small local tourney, but the last one I went to two weeks ago, the top table was my Iron Hands vs Crimson Fists. Well built and well handled, we're capable of doing damage.

[LucidNinja]

Of the options twin lasbacks get my vote, more threats draw away from your crusaders. Outside of the box would be a sicaran venator, it will draw fire from those who have experienced it before and help those who haven't

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I think tanks on treads are easy kills. What makes Russes so good is they are relatively cheap, have a high rate of fire and can inflict lots of damage.