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Lore/fluff are Halberds the safer choice of force weapon?


Trevak Dal

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You are dealing with alien monsters from another dimension, you got your wrist mounted storm Bolter, your baller hexagtammic ward tattoos and aegis armor, not the least of which is your psychic gift and the backing of your squadmates, but genehanced super soldier or no, having a pointy stick just seems to be better than wading in with a claymore/longsword.

 

It would be safer to use in a squad, you could take varying grips on the halberd that you couldn't as easily replicate with the force sword (the energy field would cut your hands-making it essentially a rigid lightsaber)

 

They just seem the more versatile weapon, and as far as flair goes, no other army (except The Custards) have spears (well Halberds but yeah) and it looks cooler.

 

I think if the falcions had hand guards and hooked blades I'd like them more.

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Lore-wise, if we base it on how useful real world halberds/pole-arms were compared to swords when armies and soldiers used them, yeah they are generally better.

 

The reach advantage could be a game-changer on the battle-field in purely melee combat. And seeing as how most daemon fodder are melee orientated, there is logical sense to it.

 

They also look the most unique choice, hence why Halberds are the Iconic GKs force-weapon. Heck you see on the cover of our codex!

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They also look the most unique choice, hence why Halberds are the Iconic GKs force-weapon. Heck you see on the cover of our codex!

Nemesis force halberds have been the iconic weapon of the Grey Knights Chapter since Grey Knights Terminators were first introduced (Space Hulk 1st edition).

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From a real life point of view, polearms are better than close in melee weapons due to the additional reach, but only as long as your opponents stay at reach. Once they move in, polearms get somewhat awkward. Polearms are best used when you can either force your opponent to stay in front of you or if you are shoulder to should with other polearm weilders.

 

If you are alone, a sword and shield are better. If you are in sufficient armor, a long sword is better.

 

SJ

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Lindybeige did a video on halberds. He points out what makes them a halberd (the GK versions are missing a lot) and the situations they would be used (formation fighting).

 

In 40k, I don't think they are the weapon of choice. A sword and shield would probably be a better choice, given how 40k is depicted in art and the game.

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Oh yea, iconically speaking Halberds are the cat’s meow. Here’s perhaps one area GW missed the mark for sure with GK. Such a cool weapon. Considering the length of it, I would have loved to have see; some sort of charge bonus.

 

A ‘parry’ rule could have been another option considering the defensive abilities of a lot of polearms.

 

I don’t think there’s anything wrong with dual Falchions doing what they do, but I agree the Halberd fell pretty short of the background.

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The main problem of Halberds against your typical Daemon invasion would probably be that there are dozens of Daemons charging the ranks of your very few guys with Halberds so they'd likely get overwhelmed instead of being able to hold them at reach. Basic Daemons don't really value their health all that much after all. Against more elite-ish Daemon forces they'd work better.

So against the usual hordes of Daemons Sword&Shield would indeed be better probably. Unfortunately that's not something GK can take for some reason.

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I'd argue power armor (and their long swords) are similar to heavy armor and long swords (not using a shield). You are effectively wearing your shield, so you can swing your sword around again the draw back to force weapons and power weapons in general would be that they are rigid lightsabers so you couldn't take as much advantage of your sword and physical prowess as a marine outside of cutting and maybe stabbing-but they are rigid lightsabers so it does that quite well.

 

I think it's odd there isn't a unit-at least in 30k/Horus heresy with an option for storm shields and power weapons (that are space marines)

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I'd argue power armor (and their long swords) are similar to heavy armor and long swords (not using a shield). You are effectively wearing your shield, so you can swing your sword around again the draw back to force weapons and power weapons in general would be that they are rigid lightsabers so you couldn't take as much advantage of your sword and physical prowess as a marine outside of cutting and maybe stabbing-but they are rigid lightsabers so it does that quite well.

 

I think it's odd there isn't a unit-at least in 30k/Horus heresy with an option for storm shields and power weapons (that are space marines)

 

Salamander Legion Firedrakes

Ultramarines Invictarus Suzerain Squad

Ultramarines Legion Breacher Siege Squad

Space Wolves Legion Grey Slayers Close Combat Squad

Imperial Fists Cataphractii Terminators with Storm Shields

Imperial Fists Legion Templar Brethren

 

All have shields + power weapons AFAIK.

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I'd argue power armor (and their long swords) are similar to heavy armor and long swords (not using a shield). You are effectively wearing your shield, so you can swing your sword around again the draw back to force weapons and power weapons in general would be that they are rigid lightsabers so you couldn't take as much advantage of your sword and physical prowess as a marine outside of cutting and maybe stabbing-but they are rigid lightsabers so it does that quite well.

 

I think it's odd there isn't a unit-at least in 30k/Horus heresy with an option for storm shields and power weapons (that are space marines)

 

Uhm that's not quite how shields and armor work. There are lots of armor breaking weapons and shields aren't just used to take a hit full force you also use it to deflect and re-direct your opponents weapons and at times to push to put him off balance. Try that with just armor and you'll have a bad time against properly equipped opponents. ^^

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did a video on halberds. He points out what makes them a halberd (the GK versions are missing a lot) and the situations they would be used (formation fighting).

 

In 40k, I don't think they are the weapon of choice. A sword and shield would probably be a better choice, given how 40k is depicted in art and the game.

Hmm.

Always a bit cautious about his videos. They’re not that well researched.

Halberds became prominent from the 14th century and were not used by armoured soldiers. Just look at the Swiss guard in the Vatican.

 

Matt Easton’s from Schola are a lot more researched.

 

 

What GK use is more of either a Glaive or a fauchard. Although they looks more like a Naginata from eastern martial traditions.

 

 

 

 

I'd argue power armor (and their long swords) are similar to heavy armor and long swords (not using a shield). You are effectively wearing your shield, so you can swing your sword around again

Uhm that's not quite how shields and armor work. There are lots of armor breaking weapons and shields aren't just used to take a hit full force you also use it to deflect and re-direct your opponents weapons and at times to push to put him off balance. Try that with just armor and you'll have a bad time against properly equipped opponents. ^^

Depends quite what you’re talking about here.

Armour is a worn shield, if you look at the evolution of the shield not only in western armour but in eastern armour as well, the more rigid plates you have the smaller the shield becomes. Norman knights for example had large shields with maille armour, while 16 century tournament armour had no shield as, especially the Greenwich armoury style is entirely enclosed plate.

You are right that you can use a shield for more than just stopping a blow directly, but without a shield you can use weapons in different ways such as a 2 handed grip on a pole axe or something called halfswording, which is grabbing the bladed part of a sword and using it more like a short stabbing spear. Anything that can realistically damage full harness plate will make a mess of a shield, but most weapons just cannot generate the percussive force to break hardened plate.

This might sound strange, but the most effective way to deal with an armoured opponent it grappling, which is a lot easier without a shield!

 

In terms of what would be the most effective melee weapon for a grey knight, being someone who trains with historical weapons, I’d say you ideally need a mix!

You’re best setting up a la German/Swiss Landschnecht. A mix of pike, sword, ranged weapons and large swords (zweihander in german, montante in Spanish sources)

 

If you had to go with just one weapon, given the smaller numbers and need for multiple engagements, I’d say you want montante.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zweihänder

 

It’s designed to deal with multiple opponents in confined and exposed spaces, which is about as close to GK as you get. They just aren’t to dexterous for one on one fencing.

 

So my money would be on really big swords ;)

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Nothing in that video was contrary to the video I posted, and all your video discussed was the difference between three weapons of similar nature. It also agreed with the main point I was making, that this weapon is used in formation. GK (or almost any army in 40k) don't fight in formation, so it makes no sense to use such a weapon, you would be better off with another weapon choice.

 

All the historical stuff you said can be thrown out the window, given that it doesn't apply in the context of the 41st millennium. Only the fighting style of translates, shields being weak and halfswording make no sense in 40k. Storm shields provide more force field protection than a suit of terminator armour, they aren't "less effective". If you were to halfsword a power/force weapon, you'd cut your hand off.

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Always find it interesting when people say about historical context and 40k.

Yes, you’re right that it doesn’t exactly correlate. But then neither does using melee weapons in a world where projectiles are as effective as they are portrayed in 40k.

 

40k, indeed pretty much all media portrayals involving melee weapons are very poor comparisons to real life.

 

Yes, halfswording with a power/force weapon would be a dumb idea. But if the protection from a storm shield is a force field then surely you don’t need to be holding it. Couldn’t it be strapped to your back giving you a free hand to use either a second weapon or a 2 handed weapon?

 

There’s always a lot of discussion in the HEMA (historical European martial arts- historical fencing. Think the olympics, but much more crazy weapon choices ;) ) community about the viability of 2 single handed weapons.

There are some works on how to use 2 paired swords. But most of what we have is for unarmoured fighting. Armour makes a big difference and given if you’ve got armour the other person you’re going to worry about fighting, in a historical context, is going to probably be as armoured as you, weapons like swords become much less useful as they can’t consistently penetrate steel.

 

Anyway, original point was is a halberd better than a big sword.

Like I said, I’d say no given how GK fight if you’re talking about a true halberd. However the ones that are modelled do look cool, and aren’t what you’d typically call a halberd...so probably would be as effective as a big sword.

 

This has now got me thinking if I can model PAGK going through some of the Iberian Montante poses however...

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