How would you make a redeemed servant of chaos?

[Ranwulf]

Ok, so since both settings share the same Chaos Pantheon, I think here could also be a useful place to post it. I hope this won't go much against the forum.

 

In the new Battletome for the Stormcasts, the Celestant Prime used Ghal-Maraz to redeem a servant of Chaos (Tornug), and in the new fluff blurb a group of redeemed warriors of chaos join together to fight.

 

 

Now, my question is tied to Warhammer as whole, who always had that conflict against Chaos.

 

How would you make a servant of chaos that was redeemed? One that managed to escape the clutches from that essence of evil that is Chaos? Would a Khorne warrior give up his martial skills, since it was the reason why he may have felled? Or would it use it to make himself more honorable?

 

Ran

[Arkaniss]

There is soul-jiggery-pokery going on there which is out of the realms of possibility in 40K as far as I'm aware. No way to pluck out the soul of a Chaos servant and send it to the Emperor to be purified, and even then the big E has nothing to do with the soul afterwards. Except eat it I suppose.

 

If a mortal can somehow break free of the clutches of the Chaos pantheon then I imagine it would be a more personal journey type thing. Even then I expect such a redemption would be short lived as I doubt any of the Chaos Gods would accept anyone breaking free of them.

 

I'm sure I remember a story of a Chaos Marine gaining redemption but I'm not sure how official it was. In any case such a story gives an example to what I mean in that his redemption was short lived as he sacrificed himself. I think. Maybe someone else with a better memory can wade in here!

[Iron Father Ferrum]

The Fenrisian inquisitor in The Emperor's Gift had an acolyte who was a redeemed cultist, so it can happen in 40K. I don't think they ever explained how, though, at least not in that particular case.

[Panzer]

I guess there's a difference between redemption for someone who simply followed chaos and fought against imperials ... and redemption for someone who completely lost his soul to one of the chaos gods.

[Redtoof]

A servo skull with a horn?

[Iron Father Ferrum]

A servo skull with a horn?

You would debase the holy machine with the bones of the corrupted?!?

 

[Leif Bearclaw]

The Fenrisian inquisitor in The Emperor's Gift had an acolyte who was a redeemed cultist, so it can happen in 40K. I don't think they ever explained how, though, at least not in that particular case.

It's been a while since I read that book, but isn't that guy's past kinda never brought up other than very vague generalities? For all we know, he might not even have been a chaos cultist, but rather the wrong sort of Imperial cult (or even neither, could be some local religion from a newly discovered, non-Imperial world). Alternatively, he could just have been in the lowly ranks/useful stooge strata of a Chaos Cult (when they often don't really understand what they're dealing with), and was found by the Inquisition before he got 'too deep', and was useful enough to be allowed to try for penance, rather than getting shot. Either way, that's a far cry from redeeming someone who's gone 'full Chaos', as it were.

[RolandTHTG]

Fluff-wise, early servants of chaos, before they get visible mutations, can turn back to the emperor and seek redemption. Assuming they encounter a willing imperial that doesn't just kill them to be safe of course.

This can be a regular human, who as mentioned above generally ends up in an inquisitor's retinue for his knowledge and strength of will. For a space marine, the path shown is to become a Deathwatch Black Shield, to serve out their days shorn of their previous allegiance. 

[Triszin]

I guess there's a difference between redemption for someone who simply followed chaos and fought against imperials ... and redemption for someone who completely lost his soul to one of the chaos gods.

 

I imagine it would be someone that was into a cult, but lucky enough not to be afflicted by chaotic mutations, which might be a goldilocks period of chaos worship, to soon for mutations, to late not to be called a heretic.

 

I do find it interesting, that, it might be possible for someone who is damned might find redemption somehow.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

 

The Fenrisian inquisitor in The Emperor's Gift had an acolyte who was a redeemed cultist, so it can happen in 40K. I don't think they ever explained how, though, at least not in that particular case.

 

It's been a while since I read that book, but isn't that guy's past kinda never brought up other than very vague generalities? For all we know, he might not even have been a chaos cultist, but rather the wrong sort of Imperial cult (or even neither, could be some local religion from a newly discovered, non-Imperial world). Alternatively, he could just have been in the lowly ranks/useful stooge strata of a Chaos Cult (when they often don't really understand what they're dealing with), and was found by the Inquisition before he got 'too deep', and was useful enough to be allowed to try for penance, rather than getting shot. Either way, that's a far cry from redeeming someone who's gone 'full Chaos', as it were.

I'm pretty sure he had chaos brands on his face that were covered over by Aquila tattoos. That sounds pretty devoted to me.

[justicarius6]

There's a shorty story about a Sister of Battle redeeming a corrupted Ultramarine in one of the collections, can't remember which one now.

 

There's a thread here about it: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/333759-castus-the-first-only-recorded-traitor-ultramarine/

[Chaplain Killmer]

If you go back to ancient fluff, there has been individuals coming back after being possessed by a demon as a host. The Illuminati in Slaves to Darkness were a such individuals. Maybe worth a look ist only a few pages.

[Tyriks]

Don't the Exorcists still do that? Get themselves possessed and then fight it off?

 

Crimson King spoilers:

Lemuel Gaumon gets possessed by a piece of Magnus and ultimately resists it, which is said in conversation afterwards to have rendered him immune or resistant to corruption. That might be a flawed hypothesis from a character though, not a known fact.

[Stofficus]

If you go back to ancient fluff, there has been individuals coming back after being possessed by a demon as a host. The Illuminati in Slaves to Darkness were a such individuals. Maybe worth a look ist only a few pages.

 

That's a little different - in present fluff you have the Exorcist chapter of marines whose right of initiation involves being possessed and having to fight it off. 

 

Someone forcibly subjected to the powers of Chaos, or someone early enough along in the process willingly could certainly find some path of redemption - though likely limited or short in duration. 

 

For, say, a veteran of the long war? That ship has sailed a long, long time ago. 

[Kinstryfe]

Phases of Chaos worship, imho

 

0) Unwitting worship. Those who worship the chaos gods without necessarily being aware of it. "Every year we hold the Festival of the Emperor's Bounty to ensure we have enough people to work in the manufacturing. You should come, it's the best festival we have."

Examples: Many of the forces who followed Horus solely because he was The Warmaster.

 

1) Casual worship. Those who worship the ruinous powers culturally or half-heartedly. They may even dislike it, but see it as a necessity. Could also include those whose goals simply align with the gods. "Yeah, I'm a Slaanesh worshipper I guess. Pretty much everyone on Adhost IV is. You worship Nurgle? Cool. Uh, stay over there."

Examples: Many of the Night Lords legion. Many renegade Astartes chapters who attract the gods' attention simply by being anti-Imperium.

 

2) Self Identification. Those who include their worship as an important part of their identity. "I'm a member of the Cult of the Holy Touch. Slaanesh is the best. I don't know why you still worship Nurgle."

Examples: Many of the Undivided legions, save the Word Bearers. Your typical cult member.

 

3) Full Worship. Fully embracing the gods or a god of chaos. Often including ambitions toward daemonhood or unnatural power. "Deacon Slaanthar says that if I kill 6 more heretics I may make cell leader by next year!"

Examples: Most of the typical members of the devoted Legions. Champions of Chaos are likely in this phase. Abaddon is an exemplar of this, embracing chaos for as much power as possible.

 

4) Fanatacism. Actively giving over oneself to the gods or a god of chaos, up to and including sacrifice of body or soul. "I beseech you great Sl'Krr'Throp'Pbttttt! Come forward and : unintelligible screaming as a Daemon possesses them:"

Examples: Most of the Word Bearers. Many non-forcibly possessed. More zealots cults.

 

Zero and One are probably fairly easily redeemable. Two may be possible if you haven't accepted any of the gifts of the gods, but would likely require a lot of trust from a fairly radical source to work. Three and Four are most likely too far gone, and I'd imagine redemption is all but impossible.

[rendingon1+]

No way back IMHO. Especially voluntary - those neck deep in Chaos gifts do not strike me as willing to (re)convert.

[Trevak Dal]

I like to think that when his friend Giselburtus finally dies, and if the various Unforgiven Chapters stop searching for him Adrastus (who is perpetual) would live out the rest of his days on a frontier world, paying taxes and toiling.

 

He might join the deathwatch, but after many deaths, a century of self forced loneliness and zen meditation, the programming that marines go through at induction isn't as strong. He'd only just became a full marine right before Caliban fell, and was just following orders.

 

Now he's done bad stuff, raided, been a lord of a defunct warband, and of course the stuff he does working with Giselburtus and the Nightblades, but he has a personal debt to Giselburtus, and fights his battles as his own, though he doesn't wish to fight at all.

[MARK0SIAN]

I think that even if redemption was possible it would be redemption in death from the Imperiums point of view. Similar to things like Arco Flagellants and penitent engines. They are used as tools by the Imperium so that their deaths can serve the emeperor rather than them just be executed, however it is understood that death is still the end result, they just make a useful contribution before it happens.

 

To paraphrase the real world: redemption is between them and the emperor, the imperiums job is just to arrange the meeting.

[Eddie Orlock]

There is soul-jiggery-pokery going on there which is out of the realms of possibility in 40K as far as I'm aware. No way to pluck out the soul of a Chaos servant and send it to the Emperor to be purified, and even then the big E has nothing to do with the soul afterwards. Except eat it I suppose. …

I've got two paths back into the light. The preferred option is to encounter a Sensei and hope that he has the Imperial Gift that lets him burn away your taint and replace it with Imperial Beneficence. Kind of like the 'Gift of Chaos' power, only some version of reverse or 'Gift of StarChild'. This method has been specifically presented in canon books with game mechanics associated with it.

 

The harder option involves deep introspection and the realization on the part of the penitent that they might soon number amongst the damned if they do not change their ways. Which they then repudiate while embarking on a like long quest of redemptive asceticism with strictly limited exposure to warp phenomena and specific focus on charitable acts to their fellow humanity. Such characters should never sail the stars again, because that carries a high risk of exposure during Geller field flickers. Go be the janitor at some far flung Hosptitalier mission some where and throw yourself on the Sororitas mercy, wretch. Also ripped from primary sources. Except the part about battle sisters showing non-lethal mercy.

[USNCenturion]

Burning ‘em at the stake sounds redeemed to me.

 

What kind of Imperium would we be if we let just any Tom, Dick, or Harry the Hammer back into the fold after pillaging and burning the segmentums. Got a rep to uphold you know.

[Brother Lunkhead]

I remember a story from long ago in the short story omnibus Let the Galaxy Burn where a Space Marine turns to Chaos, and as a Champion of Nurgle repents and..... well..... I'm not going to spoil the ending  Let's just say it ends with redemption but no happily-ever-after. Unfortunately there is no  equivalent  to the power of the Ghal-Maraz in the 40Kverse. Even the Emperor had to burn out the soul of Horus in the end (old fluff.... who knows how this ending will be retconned in the future).

[Zeller]

I'm partial to the Sigmar story of a chaos demon/warlord being bludgeoned to death so hard by a holy weapon that his soul is reclaimed by Sigmar. Well, what part of his soul remaining that was still good anyway. Maybe something along those lines. They could come back as an ethereal manifestation of the Emperor's will like the Sanguinor.

[Nomus Sardauk]

I'm sure I remember a story of a Chaos Marine gaining redemption but I'm not sure how official it was. In any case such a story gives an example to what I mean in that his redemption was short lived as he sacrificed himself. I think. Maybe someone else with a better memory can wade in here!

I think I know the story you mean, if I recall correctly he was a Sorcerer acting as navigator for a Chaos vessel in a fleet headed to Cadia to join the ongoing 13th Black Crusade, while navigating he hears the psychic death scream of another world murdered by the Despoiler causing a surge of guilt and horror to rise within him. Realising he can no longer stomach serving the ruinous powers he prays to the Emperor before steering the entire vessel into one of it's fellows, causing the pair to explode and destroy several other ships, preventing another host of monsters from being unleashed upon the Galaxy.

[N1SB]

What an interesting question, and fascinating answers. I hadn't really formulated an opinion until reading all these points of view, and even then I just had an idea.

There is soul-jiggery-pokery going on there...

There are redeemable souls in Age of Sigmar is because it's literally the Soul Wars right now, i.e. it's not just because it's the fantasy setting, but also because it's the storyline. The revived Daughters of Khaine faction are literally souls ripped away from Slaanesh now. The different "gods" of the setting are fighting over souls, thus it actually makes perfect sense there's this conversion away from Chaos. There's this soul-forging process, which is like re-programming a soul, to actually do it. "Soul-jiggery-pokery" is a great way to describe the whole thing, honestly.

I've got two paths back into the light. The preferred option is to encounter a Sensei and hope that he has the Imperial Gift that lets him burn away your taint and replace it with Imperial Beneficence. Kind of like the 'Gift of Chaos' power, only some version of reverse or 'Gift of StarChild'. This method has been specifically presented in canon books with game mechanics associated with it.

The harder option involves deep introspection and the realization on the part of the penitent that they might soon number amongst the damned if they do not change their ways. Which they then repudiate while embarking on a like long quest of redemptive asceticism with strictly limited exposure to warp phenomena and specific focus on charitable acts to their fellow humanity. Such characters should never sail the stars again, because that carries a high risk of exposure during Geller field flickers. Go be the janitor at some far flung Hosptitalier mission some where and throw yourself on the Sororitas mercy, wretch. Also ripped from primary sources. Except the part about battle sisters showing non-lethal mercy.

The Sensei/Starchild (if canon) is probably the mystical way we intuit, like we magically "save" a Heretic.

But I'm thinking what normally happens is probably the Emperor's Piece Peace, which means a bolt shell through the head.

I really do like the idea Brother Orlock described of how, even when redeemed, a former heretic has to basically be placed on the nearest planet and stay there, forbidden to travel the Warp or have any proximity to it, for fear of "relapse". That would be a great supporting character for a story, actually, like an Inquisitor has to travel all the way to a hermit who has information about a Chaos-related matter, precisely because he was a former Cultist prohibited from Warp travel.

I'm partial to the Sigmar story of a chaos demon/warlord being bludgeoned to death so hard by a holy weapon that his soul is reclaimed by Sigmar. Well, what part of his soul remaining that was still good anyway. Maybe something along those lines. They could come back as an ethereal manifestation of the Emperor's will like the Sanguinor.

I loved the idea of being hit so hard that it knocked the heresy right out of someone.

However, when you said the Sanguinor, I thought of something else: The Legion of the Damned. Obviously, this would only apply to redeemed Space Marines and not all Damned Legionnaires are as such. But perhaps the truly repentant Chaos Space Marines, have self-administered the Emperor's Peace, would join the Legion, becoming the equivalent of the Emperor's Daemons.

This is perhaps the most interesting one to visually represent, like a Cult Chaos Space Marine like a Khorne Berzerker or Plague Marine would keep their armour, but painted in a way resembling the Legion of the Damned.

A servo skull with a horn?

I actually converted a servo skull converted to be Nurgle's Rot-tainted for my Renegades & Heretics army. It's not very good, was just an experiment, but here:

[Panzer]

What an interesting question, and fascinating answers.  I hadn't really formulated an opinion until reading all these points of view, and even then I just had an idea.

 

 

There is soul-jiggery-pokery going on there...

 

 

There are redeemable souls in Age of Sigmar is because it's literally the Soul Wars right now, i.e. it's not just because it's the fantasy setting, but also because it's the storyline.  The revived Daughters of Khaine faction are literally souls ripped away from Slaanesh now.  The different "gods" of the setting are fighting over souls, thus it actually makes perfect sense there's this conversion away from Chaos.  There's this soul-forging process, which is like re-programming a soul, to actually do it.  "Soul-jiggery-pokery" is a great way to describe the whole thing, honestly.

 

 

Yeah but the point is that big E is no god. Or at least not officially yet. He gets worshipped and we seem to have something like imperial daemons but nothing confirmed and so far big E hasn't gone around doing god-stuff like Sigmar did.

AoS is literally god vs god vs god vs ... (with their lackeys)

40k is fanatic humanity with a super psyker vs gods vs xenos

 

So while Sigmar and other gods can fight over souls, there's simply nobody who can do so in 40k except for the chaos gods and the eldar gods. If you're damned, you're damned normally.