Jump to content

Welcome to The Bolter and Chainsword
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. If you already have an account, login here - otherwise create an account for free today!
Photo

Plasma in the Stormbolter meta


  • Please log in to reply
32 replies to this topic

#1
Mobius0288

Mobius0288

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 372 posts

So before the codex (and primaris), we looked a lot into combi weapons and plasma as a good source for damage. Now with the Codex we've got our stormbolters which pretty much trump the need to take a bolter, and Hellblasters which negate the need to ever take regular plasma weapons as an anti-vehicle source.

 

Do you guys see a place for regular plasma in kill teams? I guess the thought stemmed from the need to force invul saves against armies like Death Guard. Their marines (shooting from the hip, dont hit me too hard) have a 3+/5++/5+++. The other concern is elite infantry of any kind (custodes, etc): multi-wounds, invul saves, etc. The best way to deal with them is to force it as much as possible and sheer number of shots/attacks. Does a stormbolter kill team with a plasma gun or two contribute better to that, but still have decent multi-purpose options?

 

Now maybe there's a different/more efficient way to approach this problem... like adding power axes/mauls to our standard veterans with stormbolters so we could shoot and charge with decent STR and AP options.

 

What do you guys think about regular plasma and/or dealing with elite-ish infantry?


  • Lemondish likes this

Deathwatch | Imperial Fist | Imperial Knights | Skitarii | Inquisition


#2
Lemondish

Lemondish

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 846 posts

These types of elite-ish low-ish wound count infantry with invulns are the perfect targets for mass str 6 shots and mass SIA fire - storm bolters just tend to be the cheapest way to maximize the SIA part. That's largely because they come on units that can be delivered to within rapid fire range very easily, either inside something with mass str 6 shots, or by appearing right next to the target they want to gun down. For every two plasma gun Vets you could (with 2 points) be running three storm bolter ones instead. Three storm bolters with hellfire rounds seem to be just a slight amount less deadly than plasma against the Death Guard example you mentioned above, but they bring an extra body and don't have an (albeit unlikely) chance of blowing up. Once you start adding multi-wounds, plasma may be the go to, but then why not just use Hellblasters who don't have to be as close to make their shots count? 

 

I've always found that the more dice you include higher up the funnel, the better. Since all my SIA fires a lot of shots, and all my Str 6 does too (TAC Razorbacks, Corvus, Frag Cannons), I feel I have enough firepower to drown them in a deluge of white hot xenos hating bolt rounds.

 

But combi-weapons are an enticing option. You have the same killyness against 1 wound models as storm bolters, even with the -1 to hit by firing both. Just don't overcharge, the extra str and damage is worthless here, but you gain the flexibility to use the plasma part against the tougher, multi-wound targets. 

 

You know, I think combi-plasma may be exactly the way to go here if you have the points. I'm a huge fan of combi-melta right now (can't yet share if my experiences live up to the hype), but combi-plasma may actually serve a pretty important role for DW Vets (and may actually be just as good as I hope the melta is, but more flexible). 


Edited by Lemondish, 11 July 2018 - 03:51 PM.


#3
Moostick

Moostick

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 548 posts
  • Location:Canada
I don't go for combi-plasma anymore; just take some regular plasma guns. Rarely ever want to use both profiles at once, and it generally comes into use only during overwatch.

This is entirely a deepstriking unit, so a VV is great. Term is optional. 2 or 3 plasmas in a unit is enough, supplemented by a team with various SB or SS. It's done more than FCs so far for me. FC is good for mind games and charge deterrence, but its output still isn't worth its cost yet, and people already learned how to deal with it.

#4
Lemondish

Lemondish

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 846 posts

I don't go for combi-plasma anymore; just take some regular plasma guns. Rarely ever want to use both profiles at once, and it generally comes into use only during overwatch.

This is entirely a deepstriking unit, so a VV is great. Term is optional. 2 or 3 plasmas in a unit is enough, supplemented by a team with various SB or SS. It's done more than FCs so far for me. FC is good for mind games and charge deterrence, but its output still isn't worth its cost yet, and people already learned how to deal with it.


Gonna try em anyway. I always like having more shots for the modest price increase of 3 points.
  • vigitant likes this

#5
vigitant

vigitant

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 184 posts
  • Location:Houston
  • Faction: Deathwatch, Space Wolves

I don't go for combi-plasma anymore; just take some regular plasma guns. Rarely ever want to use both profiles at once, and it generally comes into use only during overwatch.

This is entirely a deepstriking unit, so a VV is great. Term is optional. 2 or 3 plasmas in a unit is enough, supplemented by a team with various SB or SS. It's done more than FCs so far for me. FC is good for mind games and charge deterrence, but its output still isn't worth its cost yet, and people already learned how to deal with it.

I 100% agree on the frag cannon.  Theyre amazing inside of 8", but it limits them tactically.  I've dropped down to 1 in my forward vet squad.

As for plasma, I prefer the Helblasters for this role.  10 ablative wounds, 15" rapid fire, and -4 ap are all pretty awesome.  the 15" rapid fire especially.  Hell, having a 36" threat once you kill your drop target is super juicy as well.



#6
MadEdric

MadEdric

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 1,089 posts

I built a squad of combi-plasma toting vets. I played them one game and they were quickly replaced with an Intercessor squad with Helblasters in it.

The six man vet squad cost me 210 points, the 10 man Intercessor squad (with 4 Hellblasters and 1 Inceptor with plasma) cost 295 points. 

Six wounds vs twenty wounds, six plasma guns vs 4 plasma incinerators and dual wielded plasma exterminator, plus five bolt rifles shooting SIA. all for 85 more points. No contest there.

 

The only combi-weapon I consider adding is a combi-flamer now, and that is on my Chaplin and Artemis.


Edited by MadEdric, 11 July 2018 - 08:07 PM.


#7
Finkmilkana

Finkmilkana

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 285 posts

I built a squad of combi-plasma toting vets. I played them one game and they were quickly replaced with an Intercessor squad with Helblasters in it.
The six man vet squad cost me 210 points, the 10 man Intercessor squad (with 4 Hellblasters and 1 Inceptor with plasma) cost 295 points.

While I agree that that combi plasma is not a good idea, it seems you might have miscalculated the vet squads price. 6 combi-plasma vets should only be 192 points (32 per model).
In general, i feel plasma vets with some storm shield SB guys (and possibly a termi/vanguard) are the way to go for deepstrike. More firepower per point than most hellblasters/intercessor mixes and (considering the amount of high ap, Multi damage weapons) not much less durable. Hellblasters only seem to make sense if you want to walk up the board and need the range.

#8
vigitant

vigitant

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 184 posts
  • Location:Houston
  • Faction: Deathwatch, Space Wolves

 

I built a squad of combi-plasma toting vets. I played them one game and they were quickly replaced with an Intercessor squad with Helblasters in it.
The six man vet squad cost me 210 points, the 10 man Intercessor squad (with 4 Hellblasters and 1 Inceptor with plasma) cost 295 points.

While I agree that that combi plasma is not a good idea, it seems you might have miscalculated the vet squads price. 6 combi-plasma vets should only be 192 points (32 per model).
In general, i feel plasma vets with some storm shield SB guys (and possibly a termi/vanguard) are the way to go for deepstrike. More firepower per point than most hellblasters/intercessor mixes and (considering the amount of high ap, Multi damage weapons) not much less durable. Hellblasters only seem to make sense if you want to walk up the board and need the range.

 

Also helps to drop outside of 12" so you dont trigger strategems.  the -4 ap can help avoid lucky dice rolls.  Removing the armor save variable for most things is always good.



#9
MadEdric

MadEdric

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 1,089 posts

 

I built a squad of combi-plasma toting vets. I played them one game and they were quickly replaced with an Intercessor squad with Helblasters in it.
The six man vet squad cost me 210 points, the 10 man Intercessor squad (with 4 Hellblasters and 1 Inceptor with plasma) cost 295 points.

While I agree that that combi plasma is not a good idea, it seems you might have miscalculated the vet squads price. 6 combi-plasma vets should only be 192 points (32 per model).
In general, i feel plasma vets with some storm shield SB guys (and possibly a termi/vanguard) are the way to go for deepstrike. More firepower per point than most hellblasters/intercessor mixes and (considering the amount of high ap, Multi damage weapons) not much less durable. Hellblasters only seem to make sense if you want to walk up the board and need the range.

 

The price was for the squad as built, it had 2 power swords and 2 storm shields as well. This is the usual additions I add to most squads to give them a little more durability and punch if charged. I forgot to add that bit in. 

The durability is countered by the larger amount of wounds, and not losing plasma shots when damage is taken. 

This of course was a six man squad (all the spare combi-plasma I had), adding a terminator and boosting the squad up to 10 man would surpass the intercessor squad in points (with no power weapons and 2 storm shields).

Rapidfiring at 12" and using both profiles (3 SB, pistol, 6 combi-plasma) would net around 7 wounds on MEQ.

Rapidfiring at 15" plus 2d3 assault 18" for the inceptor (5 bolt rifle, 4 plasma incinerators, dual plasma exterminators) nets around 8 wounds on a MEQ.

I will grant that the numbers get better for the vets when you add in tactics and a reroll buff from a Watchmaster bumps vets to around 14 wounds, the Intercessors at 12 on a MEQ.

Numbers become more skewed if you overcharge, since the vets will most likely not fire both profiles.

All in all though, this is the great thing about Deathwatch, you have so many options that you can put out so many squad variations that will still be strong. Giving us an advantage on the "Rule of Cool" over most armies.



#10
Lemondish

Lemondish

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 846 posts

I built a squad of combi-plasma toting vets. I played them one game and they were quickly replaced with an Intercessor squad with Helblasters in it.
The six man vet squad cost me 210 points, the 10 man Intercessor squad (with 4 Hellblasters and 1 Inceptor with plasma) cost 295 points.
Six wounds vs twenty wounds, six plasma guns vs 4 plasma incinerators and dual wielded plasma exterminator, plus five bolt rifles shooting SIA. all for 85 more points. No contest there.

The only combi-weapon I consider adding is a combi-flamer now, and that is on my Chaplin and Artemis.


I managed to find some amazing success today with combi-melta delivered via transports, so I'm going to continue playing with that for now, but I definitely see what you're saying with plasma.
  • vigitant likes this

#11
MadEdric

MadEdric

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 1,089 posts

 

I built a squad of combi-plasma toting vets. I played them one game and they were quickly replaced with an Intercessor squad with Helblasters in it.
The six man vet squad cost me 210 points, the 10 man Intercessor squad (with 4 Hellblasters and 1 Inceptor with plasma) cost 295 points.
Six wounds vs twenty wounds, six plasma guns vs 4 plasma incinerators and dual wielded plasma exterminator, plus five bolt rifles shooting SIA. all for 85 more points. No contest there.

The only combi-weapon I consider adding is a combi-flamer now, and that is on my Chaplin and Artemis.


I managed to find some amazing success today with combi-melta delivered via transports, so I'm going to continue playing with that for now, but I definitely see what you're saying with plasma.

 

I do have the combi-melta vet from the Cassius Killteam, but man the cost for one combi-melta is steep. I should give some a chance though. Getting a couple melta shots in at the right time could really help.



#12
Lemondish

Lemondish

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 846 posts


I built a squad of combi-plasma toting vets. I played them one game and they were quickly replaced with an Intercessor squad with Helblasters in it.
The six man vet squad cost me 210 points, the 10 man Intercessor squad (with 4 Hellblasters and 1 Inceptor with plasma) cost 295 points.
Six wounds vs twenty wounds, six plasma guns vs 4 plasma incinerators and dual wielded plasma exterminator, plus five bolt rifles shooting SIA. all for 85 more points. No contest there.

The only combi-weapon I consider adding is a combi-flamer now, and that is on my Chaplin and Artemis.

I managed to find some amazing success today with combi-melta delivered via transports, so I'm going to continue playing with that for now, but I definitely see what you're saying with plasma.
I do have the combi-melta vet from the Cassius Killteam, but man the cost for one combi-melta is steep. I should give some a chance though. Getting a couple melta shots in at the right time could really help.

The problem I've always had with melta in 8th is delivery, but Veterans definitely have tools to get around that for the most part. They're expensive, certainly, but there aren't many anti tank options that aren't. I wanted to try and stay within the DW list exclusively as a test, so gave them a shot. Since SIA is so awesome, I sprung for the combi instead of just going with just a meltagun. The flexibility of an extra 2 bolter shots for 3 points was worth it with the rerolls factored in.
  • vigitant likes this

#13
Mobius0288

Mobius0288

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 372 posts

I really like your guys' thoughts on plasma, its all very similar to my own. I too tried a combi-plasma squad with a watchmaster because I really wanted more shots plus the better wounding potential. You should definitely never overcharge when firing both, it's just not worth blowing up your guys for it... but having the ability to use either at a given time is super important to us. I've been trying to justify how to do it, and maybe sticking a couple in per squad is the best way to go (plasma or combi-plasma). You're going to need those rerolls on the combi-plasma so maybe just stick them in a SB/SS squad and bodyguard a watchmaster. Then we can stick some regular plasma gun dudes in another SS/SB unit and have a Captain follow behind.

 

I see your points on the hellblasters as well.... why waste the effort, just pay the extra points to get the super awesome hellblasters. Deep strike them and its game over for whatever unit you target. I think it just hurts my soul to waste hellblasters on a non-vehicle/monster if there is still a vehicle/monster on the table. The hope was maybe to create another efficient squad so my hellblasters really can go after those targets until dead, and still deal with terminators, death guard marines, etc. I agree largely with the hellblasters and I almost always include them by default.

 

 

 

 

I built a squad of combi-plasma toting vets. I played them one game and they were quickly replaced with an Intercessor squad with Helblasters in it.
The six man vet squad cost me 210 points, the 10 man Intercessor squad (with 4 Hellblasters and 1 Inceptor with plasma) cost 295 points.
Six wounds vs twenty wounds, six plasma guns vs 4 plasma incinerators and dual wielded plasma exterminator, plus five bolt rifles shooting SIA. all for 85 more points. No contest there.

The only combi-weapon I consider adding is a combi-flamer now, and that is on my Chaplin and Artemis.


I managed to find some amazing success today with combi-melta delivered via transports, so I'm going to continue playing with that for now, but I definitely see what you're saying with plasma.

 

 

Ya I've had huge success with combi-melta myself, which is kinda why I didn't include in the initial post. I run 3 combi-melta and 2 regular guys in transport. They double as both a vehicle hunter and a warlord "assassinator" coupled with both the doctrine stratagem and decapitation doctrine, respectively. Anything less then T8 is wiped when I disembark and shoot, except Knights.

 

Combi-flamers are OK. A little underwhelming but still better then the shotgun "flamer" profile. I take one on my Sgt, 3 shotgun guys and a frag cannon. I can advance and shoot with no problems and does decent against charges. I wouldn't really recommend mass combi-flamers simply because you will have less opportunity to shoot both then even a combi-plasma.


Deathwatch | Imperial Fist | Imperial Knights | Skitarii | Inquisition


#14
Lemondish

Lemondish

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 846 posts

I really like your guys' thoughts on plasma, its all very similar to my own. I too tried a combi-plasma squad with a watchmaster because I really wanted more shots plus the better wounding potential. You should definitely never overcharge when firing both, it's just not worth blowing up your guys for it... but having the ability to use either at a given time is super important to us. I've been trying to justify how to do it, and maybe sticking a couple in per squad is the best way to go (plasma or combi-plasma). You're going to need those rerolls on the combi-plasma so maybe just stick them in a SB/SS squad and bodyguard a watchmaster. Then we can stick some regular plasma gun dudes in another SS/SB unit and have a Captain follow behind.

 

Exactly - you don't want to (or even gain much of a benefit) when firing both profiles at targets that you need to overcharge on. But when you need weight of fire, they can definitely help. Thanks to the AP, the reduced chance to hit is mitigated by bypassing armour saves entirely for a variety of high model chaff. 4 shots that all wound on 2s is stormbolter territory, but when you need the Plasma to overcharge, you have it available. I think the flexibility is something worth trying out, to be quite honest, but I'm sure the Hellblasters will simply outperform them in most common circumstances. 


  • Mobius0288 and vigitant like this

#15
Mobius0288

Mobius0288

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 372 posts

So revisiting this topic for a second in the hopes of finding a balanced kill team (handling shooting and melee without the need to auto-include a Veteran Vanguard to escape melee)...

 

Do you think plasma pistols have a place on regular veterans? I get that the plasma gun is better in most cases; but now that we have storm bolters as the default choice, do you think mixing in a plasma a pistol (or 2?) and a couple power weapons would create decently balanced squad (@spacewatch)?

 

I'm thinking...

 

Sgt - Power axe / plasma pistol

Blackshield -  Power axe / plasma pistol

Vet - Storm bolter / storm shield

Vet - Storm bolter / storm shield

Vet - Storm bolter / chainsword

 

The intent is not to overcharge and just have another weapon to force invuls, but I would definitely have the option to do it as needed. And I can add more Vets until my dakka desires are fulfilled.


Deathwatch | Imperial Fist | Imperial Knights | Skitarii | Inquisition


#16
Lemondish

Lemondish

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 846 posts

So revisiting this topic for a second in the hopes of finding a balanced kill team (handling shooting and melee without the need to auto-include a Veteran Vanguard to escape melee)...

 

Do you think plasma pistols have a place on regular veterans? I get that the plasma gun is better in most cases; but now that we have storm bolters as the default choice, do you think mixing in a plasma a pistol (or 2?) and a couple power weapons would create decently balanced squad (@spacewatch)?

 

I'm thinking...

 

Sgt - Power axe / plasma pistol

Blackshield -  Power axe / plasma pistol

Vet - Storm bolter / storm shield

Vet - Storm bolter / storm shield

Vet - Storm bolter / chainsword

 

The intent is not to overcharge and just have another weapon to force invuls, but I would definitely have the option to do it as needed. And I can add more Vets until my dakka desires are fulfilled.

 

Think of it this way - for the price of two pistols you can almost get a single combi-plasma with the same number of plasma shots and two extra SIA bolter shots while giving up the ability to shoot them while in melee. The mathhammer seems to show that the combi-plasma is ever so slightly more deadly than a storm bolter even with the -1 to hit for firing both profiles as long as you don't overcharge - but for the majority of targets you'll be firing at with a storm bolter you won't need to overcharge anyway. That makes me feel less bad about giving up a storm bolter for it, personally. 

 

I think you still want the DW to be primarily dangerous from ranged with the melee threat coming from the 3 attack models beating up on things with power weapons, but this is all just speculation since I've rarely been able to utilize pistols well in a combat. Are you looking to give this a shot in a game, or just working through some ideas at this point?


  • Mobius0288, spacewatch and vigitant like this

#17
Black_Knight

Black_Knight

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 307 posts
  • Location:The Surface of the Sun!
  • Faction: AdMech, Deathwatch, IK

The only place I see Pistols being the go to are for Vaguard Vets in a kill team. They can't take the rifles so it is either pistols or CC weapons.


  • Lemondish, Mobius0288 and spacewatch like this

ETL_VI_Banner_03_Custos_Fidei_01_.jpgETL_Medal_01.gif


#18
Mobius0288

Mobius0288

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 372 posts

 

So revisiting this topic for a second in the hopes of finding a balanced kill team (handling shooting and melee without the need to auto-include a Veteran Vanguard to escape melee)...

 

Do you think plasma pistols have a place on regular veterans? I get that the plasma gun is better in most cases; but now that we have storm bolters as the default choice, do you think mixing in a plasma a pistol (or 2?) and a couple power weapons would create decently balanced squad (@spacewatch)?

 

I'm thinking...

 

Sgt - Power axe / plasma pistol

Blackshield -  Power axe / plasma pistol

Vet - Storm bolter / storm shield

Vet - Storm bolter / storm shield

Vet - Storm bolter / chainsword

 

The intent is not to overcharge and just have another weapon to force invuls, but I would definitely have the option to do it as needed. And I can add more Vets until my dakka desires are fulfilled.

 

Think of it this way - for the price of two pistols you can almost get a single combi-plasma with the same number of plasma shots and two extra SIA bolter shots while giving up the ability to shoot them while in melee. The mathhammer seems to show that the combi-plasma is ever so slightly more deadly than a storm bolter even with the -1 to hit for firing both profiles as long as you don't overcharge - but for the majority of targets you'll be firing at with a storm bolter you won't need to overcharge anyway. That makes me feel less bad about giving up a storm bolter for it, personally. 

 

I think you still want the DW to be primarily dangerous from ranged with the melee threat coming from the 3 attack models beating up on things with power weapons, but this is all just speculation since I've rarely been able to utilize pistols well in a combat. Are you looking to give this a shot in a game, or just working through some ideas at this point?

 

 

I've been thinking about it for almost a day now and I'm leaning towards giving it a shot. I've been tailoring my lists a bit to have multiple "well rounded" kill teams in place of 2-3 super kill teams and some intercessors to fill the gaps. Because of that, I've been relying less on the blackstar and more on razorbacks. I can deep strike a decent sized kill team with an odd termie or VV, but for my smaller teams I want to get as many rhinos and razorbacks to keep them alive as possible. The bikers haven't been a super sexy option either but I could put them in one of the beefier kill teams and just deep strike the dakka.

 

I'm not trying to force plasma, I just want to exhaust all of my options so I can deal with as many threats as I can across different types of armies.

 

With the squad I referenced (not perfect), I can stick them in a razorback and move them up the board. Disembark when ready or destroyed... shoot all that I can and charge into a unit. Ideally, the unit would be able to destroy the infantry unit. If it is an elite infantry unit I can stay in combat and still do damage, or my opponent can retreat and not fire with it (allowing me to fire). If it's a vehicle, it will likely retreat and not be able to fire next turn.

 

Is that the right thinking? Or just commit to shooting as @Black_Knight said and plug in some VVs.


  • spacewatch likes this

Deathwatch | Imperial Fist | Imperial Knights | Skitarii | Inquisition


#19
Lemondish

Lemondish

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 846 posts

 

 

So revisiting this topic for a second in the hopes of finding a balanced kill team (handling shooting and melee without the need to auto-include a Veteran Vanguard to escape melee)...

 

Do you think plasma pistols have a place on regular veterans? I get that the plasma gun is better in most cases; but now that we have storm bolters as the default choice, do you think mixing in a plasma a pistol (or 2?) and a couple power weapons would create decently balanced squad (@spacewatch)?

 

I'm thinking...

 

Sgt - Power axe / plasma pistol

Blackshield -  Power axe / plasma pistol

Vet - Storm bolter / storm shield

Vet - Storm bolter / storm shield

Vet - Storm bolter / chainsword

 

The intent is not to overcharge and just have another weapon to force invuls, but I would definitely have the option to do it as needed. And I can add more Vets until my dakka desires are fulfilled.

 

Think of it this way - for the price of two pistols you can almost get a single combi-plasma with the same number of plasma shots and two extra SIA bolter shots while giving up the ability to shoot them while in melee. The mathhammer seems to show that the combi-plasma is ever so slightly more deadly than a storm bolter even with the -1 to hit for firing both profiles as long as you don't overcharge - but for the majority of targets you'll be firing at with a storm bolter you won't need to overcharge anyway. That makes me feel less bad about giving up a storm bolter for it, personally. 

 

I think you still want the DW to be primarily dangerous from ranged with the melee threat coming from the 3 attack models beating up on things with power weapons, but this is all just speculation since I've rarely been able to utilize pistols well in a combat. Are you looking to give this a shot in a game, or just working through some ideas at this point?

 

 

I've been thinking about it for almost a day now and I'm leaning towards giving it a shot. I've been tailoring my lists a bit to have multiple "well rounded" kill teams in place of 2-3 super kill teams and some intercessors to fill the gaps. Because of that, I've been relying less on the blackstar and more on razorbacks. I can deep strike a decent sized kill team with an odd termie or VV, but for my smaller teams I want to get as many rhinos and razorbacks to keep them alive as possible. The bikers haven't been a super sexy option either but I could put them in one of the beefier kill teams and just deep strike the dakka.

 

I'm not trying to force plasma, I just want to exhaust all of my options so I can deal with as many threats as I can across different types of armies.

 

With the squad I referenced (not perfect), I can stick them in a razorback and move them up the board. Disembark when ready or destroyed... shoot all that I can and charge into a unit. Ideally, the unit would be able to destroy the infantry unit. If it is an elite infantry unit I can stay in combat and still do damage, or my opponent can retreat and not fire with it (allowing me to fire). If it's a vehicle, it will likely retreat and not be able to fire next turn.

 

Is that the right thinking? Or just commit to shooting as @Black_Knight said and plug in some VVs.

 

 

I would think your way is probably viable, though I imagine the key here is weight of numbers. I think with the support of a Razorback for each squad, this might turn out to be a worthwhile endeavor, though. I've really enjoyed running my kill team forward with Razorbacks myself, so I'll attest to that being both fun and effective. In this case, your kill team wants to get into combat and stay there, even though they'll be less killy than just a shooty unit looking to avoid it altogether, but there's value there in being able to deny your opponent movement options. 

 

Share your experiences when you get a chance!


  • spacewatch likes this

#20
Black Orange

Black Orange

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 9,662 posts
  • Location:Unto realms immortal...
  • Faction: TODESKOMPANIE
I am thinking melta is a better choice overall but using plasma pistols has its merits too. I used to run the Primaris Captain with a plasma pistol and it often came in quite handy.
  • Lemondish likes this

No one can beat my Wu Tang Sword Style!my 40k blog:

https://greenblowfly.../alan-seds.html - Terminus Est - Ultramarines 247
wc.jpg

Blood and Honor!

https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Mary_Sue Mary Sue is a term used by losers


#21
spacewatch

spacewatch

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 155 posts
  • Faction: Deathwatch

So revisiting this topic for a second in the hopes of finding a balanced kill team (handling shooting and melee without the need to auto-include a Veteran Vanguard to escape melee)...

 

Do you think plasma pistols have a place on regular veterans? I get that the plasma gun is better in most cases; but now that we have storm bolters as the default choice, do you think mixing in a plasma a pistol (or 2?) and a couple power weapons would create decently balanced squad (@spacewatch)?

 

I'm thinking...

 

Sgt - Power axe / plasma pistol

Blackshield -  Power axe / plasma pistol

Vet - Storm bolter / storm shield

Vet - Storm bolter / storm shield

Vet - Storm bolter / chainsword

 

The intent is not to overcharge and just have another weapon to force invuls, but I would definitely have the option to do it as needed. And I can add more Vets until my dakka desires are fulfilled.

 

Sorry for the delayed post (I live in UTM+2 timezone) but I generally agree with others that PP's are best used by Vanguard squad. On the other hand it depends also on your playstyle wether plasma pistols are good or not.

 
PP's general problem is low volume of shots (as Lemondish already pointed). If we assume that you shoot once before melee and then once while in melee you get 4 shots with your two PP's. For the same points you can buy 1xSB+2xAxe or to 2xShotgun+2xMaul which both are, due to better volume of shots/attacks, equally good or better (not taking inv. saves in to account) everywhere else except maybe against T6-7Sv2-3 models. Both also give some extra benefits like, better range, better overwatch, and in some cases safer D2 damage. But all these extra benefits are meaningless if you like to stay close to enemy all the time so for example disembark, shoot and  charge and then stay in melee as long as needed/possible. If this is the role of that unit then PP's are ok - especially if you are going to target vehicles too.
 
Regarding inv. saves I have now tested my new Hellcessor Fortis team for couple of games and I'm leaning to going back to regular plasma team. AP3 and even AP2 is good enough when there are so many inv.save buffs available in the game.

  • Black Orange, Lemondish and Mobius0288 like this

#22
Lemondish

Lemondish

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 846 posts

Regarding inv. saves I have now tested my new Hellcessor Fortis team for couple of games and I'm leaning to going back to regular plasma team. AP3 and even AP2 is good enough when there are so many inv.save buffs available in the game.

 

What's your regular plasma team?



#23
Black_Knight

Black_Knight

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 307 posts
  • Location:The Surface of the Sun!
  • Faction: AdMech, Deathwatch, IK

When I was first starting to float ideas in 8th I wanted a really nice CC team, terminators/Claws and tons of swords, pistols(some plasma some bolt) but a lot of people said DW was designed to stay at range and shoot. The problem is with the CC team over one that's shooty is that it has one major drawback, its got to get to your target in the first place. A plasma team with a VV can simply find a big bush and throw out death until it has to fall back. But even better than plasma is simply SIA(2+ wound) storm bolters unfortunately.

 

I really wanted to use combis this edition :(


ETL_VI_Banner_03_Custos_Fidei_01_.jpgETL_Medal_01.gif


#24
Lemondish

Lemondish

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 846 posts

When I was first starting to float ideas in 8th I wanted a really nice CC team, terminators/Claws and tons of swords, pistols(some plasma some bolt) but a lot of people said DW was designed to stay at range and shoot. The problem is with the CC team over one that's shooty is that it has one major drawback, its got to get to your target in the first place. A plasma team with a VV can simply find a big bush and throw out death until it has to fall back. But even better than plasma is simply SIA(2+ wound) storm bolters unfortunately.

 

I really wanted to use combis this edition sad.png

 

I keep saying it, but folks seem to not believe me happy.png Combi-plasma are a small little bit deadlier than SIA storm bolters against every target storm bolters are great against, even with the -1 to hit from using both profiles. Obviously you'd not overcharge (you don't need to), and the more rerolls the better (which makes the impact of the -1 to hit easier to manage). When you add in the flexibility to overcharge just the plasma gun against targets that really need to be pounded into the dirt, you have a great choice.

 

For flexibility, nothing beats combi-plasma here. You get the infantry mulching of SIA storm bolters AND the elite infantry melting or vehicle threatening power of plasma at your fingertips. As far as combis working this edition, I think that qualifies.

 

I've been trying my hardest to make combi-melta work, too. With all its tools available for closing the distance, DW seems to be the most likely marine force to be able to get in within half range and slag something quickly. Still, can't deny how versatile combi-plasma can be, how much safer it can be since you don't have to get as close, and how much more reliable it can be for thinning hordes at the same time. 


  • Mobius0288 and Kallas like this

#25
spacewatch

spacewatch

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 155 posts
  • Faction: Deathwatch

 

Regarding inv. saves I have now tested my new Hellcessor Fortis team for couple of games and I'm leaning to going back to regular plasma team. AP3 and even AP2 is good enough when there are so many inv.save buffs available in the game.

 

What's your regular plasma team?

 

 

Regular plasma team is just
- 5-6 Vets (x4 plasmagun, x1-2 SS, bolters, chainswords)
disembarking from Razorback/Rhino. Sometimes I take
- 5-6 Vets (x3 combi-plasma and x1 plasmagun, x1-2 SS)
but my most devastating and reliable plasma team has been
- 6 Vets (x3 combi-plasma, plasmagun, frag cannon, x2 SS, x2 axe, bolter, chainsword). 
 
Tactics for plasma team in 9 out of 10 games has been targeting specific enemy elite or heavy support or other important units, for example Orc Meganobz or Tyrannid Carnifexes or Necron Destroyers or similar. I always use cheap jump Captain to buff shooting and to silence enemy shooting so that my plasma team can then shoot another round. I also used pew pew plasma Vanguard unit as a support when I expected big elite units but nowdays I use SB drop team for the same job because its cheaper.

  • Mobius0288 likes this




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users