Scribe Posted July 29, 2018 Share Posted July 29, 2018 I feel like Ollanius was wasted potential and I hate that they turned him into a Perpetual. It really takes away from his pre-HH legacy as the normal, everyday human who stood up to Horus. Now he's just another special snowflake. More than that though, he could've served as a major POV character for the Imperial Army of whom I feel we've been lacking (outside of Tallarn). Agreed, why they went with this perpetual side crap, I'll likely never get to know. So instead I'll safely blame Abnett for another poor addition to the Series. If it's not Ollanius that distracts Horus I'll never forgive the team behind this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roomsky Posted July 29, 2018 Share Posted July 29, 2018 I don't much mind Ollanius being a perpetual. If it's the excuse we must have for how some random guardsman didn't just get eaten by the Vengeful Spirit on arrival, I can live with it. Besides, perpetuals can be killed, no way Horus isn't going to be able to blast the guy out of existence. Certainly it takes away from the theme of some random human making a difference, but we've already added so much superfluous mess to the affair in sacrificial custodes, crack-in-the-armour Sanguiniuses, and even straight up deflections of Horus' blows (he would absolutely just swing through them), I'm hoping for a sort of best case scenario at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted July 29, 2018 Share Posted July 29, 2018 @MrDarth "I'm sure A D-B gets wider range of feedback, but almost every time I see this novel brought up in fandom, is to praise the depiction of Emps as in some way definitive, when A D-B tried to make it ambiguous." I don't think anyone is saying MoM is definitive. I'm saying Perpetual Oll is quite in line with MoM's Emp. I'm OK with that. Yeah, other earlier or later works could contradict MoM, but some works could be more consistent. That's all fine. Personally, I prefer more consistency, rather than less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrDarth151 Posted July 29, 2018 Share Posted July 29, 2018 @MrDarth "I'm sure A D-B gets wider range of feedback, but almost every time I see this novel brought up in fandom, is to praise the depiction of Emps as in some way definitive, when A D-B tried to make it ambiguous." I don't think anyone is saying MoM is definitive. I'm saying Perpetual Oll is quite in line with MoM's Emp. I'm OK with that. Yeah, other earlier or later works could contradict MoM, but some works could be more consistent. That's all fine. Personally, I prefer more consistency, rather than less. Consistent, in this particular case, means definitive. You cannot have clearly defined, consistent character traits from book to book, and then claim that the portrayal is ambiguous, because that is a very textbook example of contradiction. You might not intend it, but logic is logic, and from logical standpoint what you are saying is internally inconsistent. I like the idea of the Emperor not being clearly defined and open to multiple interpretation. It's one those things me and A D-B agree upon. The problem is, that I consider it done badly, since the books, as of the latter half of the Heresy, only pay lip service to the idea, using consistent portrayal and adding half-hearted suggestions that said portrayal can actually be a lie. I also quite don't like the portrayal they went with, because it makes little sense to me, but that is another problem entirely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kinstryfe Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 I think the problem with Ollanius being the thing that sparks The Emperor to action is that it runs contrary to everything in the HH series thus far. The only way it makes sense, which in my opinion only adds to the inhumanity of The Emperor, is if the extinguishing of a perpetual shows Him that Horus is more of a threat than he was believed to be. That pretty much kills the emotion of the event because it turns the act into one of self preservation. With all the hinting that The Emperor primarily considers Primarchs to be tools for Him to use, that He didn't unite Terra as much as conquer it, and that He did in fact think that He could master the warp to create the Primarchs, we are left already with someone who is no longer human, and it's hinted that maybe he never was. I feel that part of the underlying theme of the Heresy as a whole is that nobody was explicitly wrong, especially looking at stuff later in 40k. The Emperor does, in fact, show qualities of a God. Psykers are in fact a necessary evil to fight against the ruinous powers. Even the Inquisiton has those who think that Horus had a point and that he just failed. Billions were killed to unite Terra, and remember that in many battles The Emperor Himself fought so He's no stranger to violence. So the thought that He would be so moved by the death of one individual so like the thousands or more that He had personally killed by a creation that He regards as a fine leader but certainly not with the same regard He Himself is given by said creation, who is harnessing the same powers which He harnessed to create said creation...well, it just doesn't make sense in the context of everything we've been shown so far without a lot more being added to the narrative to explain why it has such an impact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob P Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 I think the problem with Ollanius being the thing that sparks The Emperor to action is that it runs contrary to everything in the HH series thus far. The only way it makes sense, which in my opinion only adds to the inhumanity of The Emperor, is if the extinguishing of a perpetual shows Him that Horus is more of a threat than he was believed to be. That pretty much kills the emotion of the event because it turns the act into one of self preservation. With all the hinting that The Emperor primarily considers Primarchs to be tools for Him to use, that He didn't unite Terra as much as conquer it, and that He did in fact think that He could master the warp to create the Primarchs, we are left already with someone who is no longer human, and it's hinted that maybe he never was. I feel that part of the underlying theme of the Heresy as a whole is that nobody was explicitly wrong, especially looking at stuff later in 40k. The Emperor does, in fact, show qualities of a God. Psykers are in fact a necessary evil to fight against the ruinous powers. Even the Inquisiton has those who think that Horus had a point and that he just failed. Billions were killed to unite Terra, and remember that in many battles The Emperor Himself fought so He's no stranger to violence. So the thought that He would be so moved by the death of one individual so like the thousands or more that He had personally killed by a creation that He regards as a fine leader but certainly not with the same regard He Himself is given by said creation, who is harnessing the same powers which He harnessed to create said creation...well, it just doesn't make sense in the context of everything we've been shown so far without a lot more being added to the narrative to explain why it has such an impact. What would be kind of cool is if the Emperor was fighting Horus and he spots Oll and gives him a wave *hey! I know you*. Whilst distracted Horus gives the mortal blow. Or more seriously, if the Emperor killed Oll leading to / or during the final stand-off with Horus. Maybe Oll gets in the way trying to make eveything right. There is opportunity to showing more of the Emps callousness and some tragedy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrDarth151 Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 I think the problem with Ollanius being the thing that sparks The Emperor to action is that it runs contrary to everything in the HH series thus far. The only way it makes sense, which in my opinion only adds to the inhumanity of The Emperor, is if the extinguishing of a perpetual shows Him that Horus is more of a threat than he was believed to be. That pretty much kills the emotion of the event because it turns the act into one of self preservation. With all the hinting that The Emperor primarily considers Primarchs to be tools for Him to use, that He didn't unite Terra as much as conquer it, and that He did in fact think that He could master the warp to create the Primarchs, we are left already with someone who is no longer human, and it's hinted that maybe he never was. I feel that part of the underlying theme of the Heresy as a whole is that nobody was explicitly wrong, especially looking at stuff later in 40k. The Emperor does, in fact, show qualities of a God. Psykers are in fact a necessary evil to fight against the ruinous powers. Even the Inquisiton has those who think that Horus had a point and that he just failed. Billions were killed to unite Terra, and remember that in many battles The Emperor Himself fought so He's no stranger to violence. So the thought that He would be so moved by the death of one individual so like the thousands or more that He had personally killed by a creation that He regards as a fine leader but certainly not with the same regard He Himself is given by said creation, who is harnessing the same powers which He harnessed to create said creation...well, it just doesn't make sense in the context of everything we've been shown so far without a lot more being added to the narrative to explain why it has such an impact. I do not think that is exactly contrary to my interpretation of the event, though. It fits it pretty well. Also, I am a firm opposer of the "Uncaring, inhuman Emperor" interpretation. I find it nonsensical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DukeLeto69 Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 @Rob P that sparked a thought... What if the Emp did kill Oll? What if everything from the old lore was actually imperial propaganda and what goes down was almost the opposite! Won't happen but fun to consider... "Everything you know to be true is actually a lie" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mellow Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 If you remember in the novel where Oll meets John and shows him a vision Oll is actually confronting Horus and then notices The Emperors light coming down the hall. This kind of goes against the older lore where Oll stumbles across The Emperor laying on the floor rather than already being with Horus. Unless of course the light is actually the build up of the psychic lance soul shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 "The only way it makes sense, which in my opinion only adds to the inhumanity of The Emperor, is if the extinguishing of a perpetual shows Him that Horus is more of a threat than he was believed to be." Makes sense to me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mellow Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 I agree. Horus must kill Oll completely so that he can’t resurrect which makes Him realise Hes actually in danger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob P Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 Dunno, I find that a bit boring. We've seen a perpertual die and one has been stripped of immortality. that wouldn't appear to make Horus that special. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carach Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 surely the emp knows he's in trouble this entire time. like the previous 8 years or whatever the timeline is nowadays isn't all just 'emp is kewl he just gotta swat the dude when he turns up' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mc warhammer Posted August 1, 2018 Share Posted August 1, 2018 yeah, i don't really see how obliterating a perpetual makes horus more dangerous after he's slaughtered his way to terra's gates and killed your poster boy primarch. unless horus is now sporting a sweet bad ass leather jacket, i don't see how the perception of his threat level increases it feels like it needs to be a more subtle, character epiphany Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted August 1, 2018 Share Posted August 1, 2018 Subtle character epiphany would be fine as well Alternatively... Oll is one of the most ancient Perpetuals) (though not psychically gifted). The Emp might be surpised not by the fact that Horus annilates Oll, but by how little effort it takes Horus to do so Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mc warhammer Posted August 1, 2018 Share Posted August 1, 2018 i suppose it has to do with "danger levels" or the emperor's ability to perceive them. for me, i would assume that either empy can already "sense" the extent of horus' power up or that the destruction of sang with a 'psychic assault that echoed through space and time' would tip him off to the point that perma-killing connor mcleod ollanius pius wouldn't add much. but yeah, it's possible that the emperor is being willingly obtuse due to his disbelief/love for horus. if that's the case, they need to up the lurve quotient stat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted August 1, 2018 Share Posted August 1, 2018 We need some more POV from a Primarch interacting with Him, I'd say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knockagh Posted August 1, 2018 Author Share Posted August 1, 2018 Oll is I think, aside from Malcador, the only person who could provide some insight into the emperors origins. Oll obviously doesn’t like the emperor who could be worried that Oll may expose his history making him appear to humanity less human than they imagine him. I get the theory that the E would be stunned that Oll could be killed so easily but I’m not he would be overly sorry to see him gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mc warhammer Posted August 1, 2018 Share Posted August 1, 2018 if ollanius has the dirt on the emperor, maybe the truth is he set up oli up "hey pius. run ahead, i'll use my powers to paralyse horus from here so you can kill him. sure i can do that, oldest trick in the book. run pius run!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mellow Posted August 1, 2018 Share Posted August 1, 2018 It’s all a guessing game really. We have no idea if Oll and The Emperor met in ancient times along with other perpetuals and said “synchronise your watches for the long game guys ... THIS is my plan for Humanity” Although that would be very cool to have some master plan over the span of 10’s if thousands of years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRealMcCagh Posted August 1, 2018 Share Posted August 1, 2018 I have trouble believing the plan went that far back. That would imply he planned for the rise and fall of the DAoT, which seems really counter productive. If that was the plan why not kick things into gear when all the dark age tech is readily available and the Gods seem to be taking a nap? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted August 1, 2018 Share Posted August 1, 2018 Dunno, I find that a bit boring. We've seen a perpertual die and one has been stripped of immortality. that wouldn't appear to make Horus that special. To be fair, said Perpetual only died because of an item imbued with the power of the Emperor himself. It could just be that the Emperor didn't think Horus had the capability to truly kill him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted August 2, 2018 Share Posted August 2, 2018 I doubt that the Emperor doesn't believe that Horus, filled with the power of Chaos, is capable of killing him. I mean, that would entail the Emperor lying there minus an eye, an arm, broken back and a heap of other injuries, doing the old "just a flesh wound " routine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted August 2, 2018 Share Posted August 2, 2018 The Emperor certainly realises Horus is a threat and has the ability to harm or kill him (or other Perpetuals). However, perhaps the Emp doesn't realise just how Horus is... until Horus casually obliterates Oll Persson's soul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mellow Posted August 2, 2018 Share Posted August 2, 2018 I can’t remember where I saw it but someone quoted that The Emperor didn’t think His injury’s were that bad. Maybe a little bit of biomancy and He could have fixed all the injuries if it wasn’t for having to keep the webway closed by sitting on the Throne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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