Grey Knight Capability

[b1soul]

In MoM, the Custodes generally massacre CSM as well...

 

I think he's referring to Outcast Dead (there were two WE vs. Custodes battles...Asubha and Subha vs. Saturnalia and Tagore vs. the Custodes prison-warden) and perhaps the Garro vs. arrogant Custodes sparring session.

[mc warhammer]

I remember it being that they were "on par" in that a group of Astartes had enough knowledge of squad-based tactics that they'd be able to level the playing field that way, but that individually, the Custodes would wipe the floor with them. Argel Tal wasn't able to last more than a few seconds or so in the practice cages against them.

 

did he spar with them all? or just their leader?

[b1soul]

He only sparred Aquillon the leader

 

EDIT: I think when this was written, BL treated Custodes as superior but not overwhelmingly so since Inferno

 

Argel Tal wasn’t sure what he believed, and the alien presence of doubt left him cold. He’d spent much of his time with Cyrene, as well as drilling the Seventh Company to battle readiness, and duelling Aquillon in the practice cages. The Custodian was a nightmare of an opponent, and both warriors enjoyed the challenge offered by the other. They weren’t even close to being friends, but grudging admiration was a fine foundation for meeting each other in the duelling ring.

 

...

 

Finding balance in his weakened physique was a torturous affair. The deactivated sparring blades cut the air in dull sweeps – a poor shadow of the lost swords of red iron – and he was breathless with exertion as his hearts thudded to keep up with the demands he placed upon his emaciated physique.

 

 

At last, Argel Tal lowered the blades. His muscles ached from only two hours of training. Before his journey into the Eye, such a poor performance would see him doing penance for a ritual ninety-nine nights.

 

 

‘Aquillon,’ he greeted his friend.

 

 

‘You look as though you died and forgot to lie down.’

 

 

The Word Bearer snorted. ‘I feel like it.’

 

 

‘A shame. You’d managed to last almost four minutes against me last time we stepped into these cages together.’

 

 

‘I see you are not in a merciful mood.’ In better times, this banter would have come easily to Argel Tal. ‘Did you come to speak of Ven?’

 

 

Aquillon opened the force cage and took up a practice blade twin to the one Argel Tal still held. The sparring cage’s hemispheres closed around them both. Both warriors wore robes: one, the white of Terra’s palace servants, one, the grey of the XVII Legion.

 

 

‘I wanted to hear it from you.’ He raised the blade in a two-handed grip, mimicking his favoured weapon. His warriors carried the traditional glaives, but Aquillon’s antique bidenhander broadsword was a blade apart. He carried this blade as he wielded his own sword: with a confident, effortless grip.

 

 

Argel Tal raised his own swords in a defensive cross, feeling the burn of lactic acid in his muscles. The two warriors tended to play to their strengths in the past: Aquillon was ferociously offensive in his blade work; Argel Tal remained consummately defensive.

 

 

‘So will you tell me what happened?’

 

 

Aquillon was indeed not in a merciful mood. Before the Word Bearer could even answer, Argel Tal’s blades were knocked from his hands and the captain found himself on the floor, breathing against the Custodian’s sword point. It scratched the dirty skin of his throat, and Aquillon shook his head.

 

 

‘Pathetic.’ He offered his hand to help Argel Tal rise. ‘Try again.’

 

 

The Word Bearer rose without the offered hand, retrieving his blades.

 

...

 

Sythran left the practice cage, sealing his commander and the Crimson Lord within. He’d seen Argel Tal and Aquillon cross blades on hundreds of occasions, and an educated, experienced estimate would see the Word Bearer defeated within sixty to eighty seconds.

 

 

The commencement chime sounded. Eleven clashes and five seconds later, the bout was over.

 

 

‘Again?’ enquired the Astartes.

 

He heard Sythran’s quiet exhalation in place of speech. Aquillon said nothing, either.

 

 

‘Is something amiss?’ Argel Tal asked. With the claws on his gauntlets, he couldn’t offer a hand to help Aquillon rise.

 

 

‘No. Nothing is amiss. I had not expected you to attack, that is all.’

 

 

The Custodian regained his feet, his own armour joints humming as false muscles of machine-nerve and cable-sinew flexed and tensed.

 

 

‘Again?’

 

 

Aquillon hefted his long blade. ‘Again.’

 

 

The two warriors flew at one another, each strike flashing aside with bursts from their opposing power fields. Every second saw three strikes made, and each strike snapped back with the weapons’ electrical fields repelling one another after the metal kissed for the briefest moment. The air was rich with the ozone scent of abused power fields in only a matter of heartbeats.

 

 

This time, the two warriors were more evenly matched. Argel Tal’s strength lay in his awareness, not only of his own blade work but his enemy’s potential, betrayed by their own movements. It had always allowed him to stand his ground against superior weapon-masters, such as Aquillon, for a respectable amount of time before before being unable to deflect the winning blow. Now he coupled that perceptive gift with speed to match the Custodian’s, and Aquillon was forced to bring desperate defensive strokes to bear for the first time in any of his duels with Argel Tal.

 

 

He gleaned the flaw in the Word Bearer’s sudden thrusts – that edge of indelicacy, the suggestion of imperfect balance – and struck out when the next opportunity presented itself. The flat of his blade crashed against Argel Tal’s breastplate, sending the Astartes stumbling back. Aquillon’s lips were already creasing into a smile as the crimson-clad warrior thudded to the

deck.

 

 

‘There. The balance is restored. You are back where you belong: on the floor.’

 

 

Argel Tal’s voice told of the grin behind his faceplate. ‘I almost had you.’

 

 

‘Not a chance,’ the Custodian replied, wondering why it was suddenly true. ‘But you are different, brother. Energised. Vital.’

 

 

‘I feel different. Forgive me for now – I have duties to attend to.’

 

 

‘By your word,’ said the Custodian.

 

 

Both Aquillon and Sythran watched the Astartes leave. In the silence afterward, Aquillon said ‘Something has changed.’

 

 

Sythran, true to his vow of silence, merely nodded.

[Lord_Caerolion]

He only dueled against their leader, but still, a highly respected Astartes Captain can't last more than a minute or so against a Custodes equivalent?

[b1soul]

I'm not sure whether Argel Tal is a captain with exceptional blade skills.

 

If you read the quote above, he has lasted for four minutes against Aquillon, and Argel Tal's main strength is his awareness, which allows him to hold off superior combatants for a "respectable" time.

[Lord_Caerolion]

"He’d seen Argel Tal and Aquillon cross blades on hundreds of occasions, and an educated, experienced estimate would see the Word Bearer defeated within sixty to eighty seconds." That indicates that the 4 minutes was an outlier, even if you assume the estimate to be biased. Sure, Sigismund would probably be able to fare a little better, but it's somewhat implied that Argel Tal is one of the more well known fighters amongst the Word Bearers. It's only now that he's merged with the daemon that he's able to actually start going on the offensive against Aquillon.

[b1soul]

Well, you said he can't last for more than a minute or so against Aquillon...so I pointed out that he lasts almost 4 minutes on at least one occasion.

 

Never meant to imply that the 4 minute encounter was not an outlier. It probably is, agreed.

 

On Sigismund, I think he'd most likely demolish pre-possession Argel Tal...so I think it's unclear how an Astartes in Sigismund's league would fare against Aquillon relative to Argel Tal's performance.

 

It seems to me that Argel Tal is a respectable captain who should have above-average blade skills. However, I would be very surprised if pre-possession Argel Tal were anywhere near the level of the top elites such as Sigismund, Jubal, Lucius, Khârn, Amit, Sevatar, Sharrowkyn, Abaddon, Corswain, etc. Gal Vorbak Argel Tal should be able to hang with them no problem.

 

EDIT: I believe Erebus is the closest the WB have to a top elite fighter, and he gets humiliated by an angry Khârn easily

[mc warhammer]

in an attempt to scratch that itch of a memory, i did meself a google and found some 2011 threads discussing custodes vs astartes (and also grek knights). stuff was found, though none of it was exactly what i remember reading.

 

one poster made the point that exceptional astates like hibou khan have also been shown slaughtering their way through dozens of astartes and in combat cages, guys like lucius often put other astartes on their asses in minutes. descriptions that also apply to custodes.

 

there may be some heavy overlap between the upper end of astartes ability and the average custodes (and i would assume that as a whole, gk exist in that area too).

 

a poster made the point that vendatha in TFH takes out 3 astartes (including a chapter master) and seems ready to take on lorgar as well, which lends itself to the idea that custodes are head and shoulders above astartes, to which ADB replied at the time:

 

   Originally Posted by Dead.Blue.Clown View Post

True, but Vendatha was an incredibly skilled Custodian. They're not all like him.

 

 

on the topic of GK's elite status as pyschically gifted marines:

 

Originally Posted by Dead.Blue.Clown View Post

 

The bold bit is what makes the difference.

Of course, the Grey Knights have a had a recent overall "weakening" with the new codex, on an individual level. But the bold bit is still what makes the difference. They don't need to be anything other than that: it's what makes them better than anyone else.

Where the Custodians are concerned, I just don't think it's automatically true that they're immediately more powerful or skilled than the Grey Knights. And the Custodians of 40K (rather than 30K) are almost definitely not. They have no armour, and don't even fight; compare that with the secret, psychic elite order of humanity's finest warriors.

 

[b1soul]

In 40K...debates never die ;)

[mc warhammer]

for in the grim dark future there is only netebate

[Mellow]

Is it generally agreed that Sigismund is the greatest loyalist swordsman in the entire Imperium? No one is better than him and no one can beat him?

 

It’s certainly my opinion.

 

I believe he would stand his ground against a Custodian however Valdor was meant to have sparred with Primarchs even though I don’t recall any of those sparring sessions being written about.

[b1soul]

I don't think it's opinion anymore. IIRC, French's Templar makes it quite clear, as does Forge World (not just the rules but the fluff).

 

As for rules, Sig is the only Astartes character who can go toe to toe with a Custodes Shield-Captain...but Valdor and Tribunes would be too much for him

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/340977-how-well-does-sigismund-or-sevatar-fare/

[MyD4rkPassenger]

For the sake of discussion, couldn't we factor in that the lore/background of the Custodes was a bit murky before they have come back into the limelight?  They were usually punching bags firmly in the Worf effect to highlight a character's prowess.  Wasn't it also written that they put in some serious work on Ulanor, and only lost a few Custodians?  MoM and Emperor's Legion have expanded on the "power level" of Custodes, and I've taken Valerian's comments on the Grey Knights as a great indication of their fighting skills.  Grey Knights were always supposed to be better Astartes, and Custodians were, and should always have been, written as any marine +1 due to their duty of guarding the Emperor.  Granted I'm firmly in the Custodes camp, but the Grey Knights would have probably saved tons of lives in the webway war.  It's honestly a hard thing to gauge as we all know books are written to boost the faction of the protagonist.

[Mellow]

Grey Knights probably have more battle experience but Custodians are meant to be able to analyse an enemy’s movements and then counter them very quickly.

 

The problem is the Custodians in 40k are so much less than the ones in 30k because they don’t go on any missions.

 

30k Custodians should always be portrayed as being a level above as their task is to protect the Master of Mankind.

[b1soul]

In The Emperor's Legion, 40K Custodes don't seem weaker than their forebears

[Mellow]

Custodians are functionally immortal as well, right?

 

No mention of how old the oldest of them are is there?

[Lord_Caerolion]

In The Emperor's Legion, 40K Custodes don't seem weaker than their forebears

 

But a repeated theme of the novel, at least for the Custodes section, is how much the more introverted outlook of the Custodes has affected their ability to perform their role. Whether that's actually true or not is open for debate.

[mc warhammer]

30k Custodes went to the university of hard knocks yo, 40k custodes are all about safe spaces

[b1soul]

@ Lord_Caerolian

 

Yes...but I think Wraight makes it clear that the Custodes are still keeping "active" via live training

 

I had few illusions over what he was capable of – for all that our cultivation was in many respects superior to that of the old Legiones Astartes, they were still among our deadliest foes and quite capable of defeating one of us if sufficient care were not taken. The Long War had given them many dark gifts, ones that we had to learn about and counter.

I wondered often if we even surpassed our brothers of old now, the ones who had worn the crimson-and-gold, for we had had so many more centuries to understand the nature of the enemy we fought. That was no doubt prideful, and probably inaccurate, but still the thought often came to me.

I rounded the corner at speed, and saw my quarry. He was still running, going faster than his gunmetal-heavy armour would have suggested was possible. He might have been making for one of the pulpits higher up, hoping to find some vantage from which to launch a defence, but my pursuit had been too swift.

I opened up Gnosis’ bolter, catching my enemy on the shoulder and sending him crashing to the ground. Above us both, banners swayed heavily, caught by the backwash from the explosion.

I raced after him, watching him twist back to his feet. He was a massive brute, crusted with ridged and tarnished battleplate. His helm-lenses glowed a dull red, like magma, and he carried a two-handed warhammer. The stench of engine fuel hung over him. He might have even approached my own size, my weight, my strength – such were the perversions the warp had wrought on those who had once served the Throne.

We slammed together, and the impact rippled the stone around us. Our weapons crunched into a brace-lock, showering plasma over both of us. I swung away, hilt-first, and smashed him back a pace. He shoved back, aiming to ram the fizzing hammerhead into my chest.

He nearly connected. I judged his weapon was within a few microseconds of an impact that would have cracked my auramite breastplate. That interval, however, was comfortably sufficient to spin my blade over in my grip, ram the spear tip into the Traitor’s gorget and fire at point-blank range.

The bolt-shell exploded instantly, blasting his head apart in a shower of blown metal-shreds. His warhammer spun out of control, his limbs jerked apart and the momentum of my down-thrust sent his headless corpse crashing to the ground.

 

In light of the above, lasting over a minute against a Custodes might be considered impressive.

 

@ Mellow

 

In their codex, it says a good number of them have been around for over a millenium. So I'm guessing there might be quite a few Dantes among the Custodes (Dante is over 1,600 years old post-Indomitus if my math is right)

[Lord_Caerolion]

Hence my comment about whether it's true or not being up for debate. From what we're shown, they certainly seem to be about equal, but the character certainly seems to believe they are less than what they were.

[b1soul]

Yes, the character does wonder quite a bit...it could go either way:

 

"I wondered often if we even surpassed our brothers of old now, the ones who had worn the crimson-and-gold, for we had had so many more centuries to understand the nature of the enemy we fought. That was no doubt prideful, and probably inaccurate, but still the thought often came to me."

 

I do think one legit explanation for why current Custodes might be somewhat inferior is that the Emperor himself crafted the originals.

[Xisor]

Crafting, I expect, is less significant than training/indoctrination/culture/oversight.

 

The Custodes have had ten thousand years of free reign stranded on an island in mostly-self-imposed exile.

 

That will have a non-trivial effect.

[Mellow]

Crafting is easy. You simply insert a standard baseline Human into the Custodianator and then cook for 2 minutes on full heat.

[DukeLeto69]

Hmmm but with the Codex finally expanded and revealing details and background it is clear that Custodes have actually been more active across the galaxy than people thought. Secret missions etc. IMO (and head cannon) the Custodes have always been and remain THE premier force in the Imperium. The GK hold second spot and the Astartes third.

[b1soul]

Custodes only have one heart though