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Where do Reivers fit into the chapter?

Space marines Primaris Reivers

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#1
Harrowmaster

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Just to be clear I'm not looking for how reivers fit into a tabletop army (efficiency wise), I would like to know where you guys see them fitting into the organisation of your respective chapter(s)?

 

I'm not really sure where they should go, their infiltration seems like a good fit for 10th company while the codex itself puts them in the same category as assault squads. But they're also found in the elites slot rather than FA so if I want to make a fluffy marine list they can't replace assault squads.

 

Thoughts?


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#2
Ishagu

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Chaff clearing units that arrive from reserve, pretty straight forward.

I use them instead of Intercessors when I run a Vanguard detachment. Equipped with bolt carbine they are cheaper than comparative Intercessors but with better wargear (fancy grenades) but obviously no obsec.
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#3
Harrowmaster

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Not really what I'm looking for, this is more of a background thing as per the original post rather than the role they can fulfil on the battlefield


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#4
Ishagu

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Terror Troops deployed to harass enemy infantry? The Primaris don't fit the old battle company structure and don't make use of Scouts.

Remember there's no shortage of advanced technology or armour when it comes to the new Marines.

Edited by Ishagu, 05 August 2018 - 03:20 PM.

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#5
Harrowmaster

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I know they don't use scouts but in a mixed chapter are they organised into their own formation or do they fit into an existing one?

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#6
Brother Casman

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I lean towards considering Reivers part of the 8th company (assault reserves). Sort of like assault via infiltration and maneuver, rather than death from the sky. They are a bit of an oddity in the modern Space Marine chapter organization, I agree.
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#7
Ishagu

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They aren't really assault specialists, imo. They are better dealing damage with a combination of shooting and assault, and disrupting overwatch.

If they had jump packs they'd be pretty amazing lol

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#8
Brother Casman

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Okay, I should have been clearer, I suppose. In my vision of my Blood Ravens, I consider them to be close assault specialists, and part of the 8th company. They get shared out to the Battle Companies as support as needed. Make sense? :)
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#9
Bryan Blaire

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I know they don't use scouts

Says what? Primaris have to learn to be Marines too, there's no reason you wouldn't have Scouts in a full Primaris Chapter.

Primaris go through the same implantation process and time-frame as any standard Marine, so they have the same 4-5ish year period to learn and train as Scouts.
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#10
Ishagu

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Apparently it's a lot faster and they go into full armour from the get go.

They are also implanted with combat tactics and general knowledge memories.
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#11
Race Bannon

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So as part of a Battle Company?

Edited by Race Bannon, 05 August 2018 - 03:44 PM.

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#12
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i'd be inclined to agree with Casman about where they'd fit organizationally.  If trying to pigeon-hole them into what we'd consider the "traditional" structure of all 10 battle companies, The don't particularly fit well into the Battle Companies, so a Reserve Company seems the best fit.  And out of those 5, the 8th seems the better fit.


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#13
Harrowmaster

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I lean towards considering Reivers part of the 8th company (assault reserves). Sort of like assault via infiltration and maneuver, rather than death from the sky. They are a bit of an oddity in the modern Space Marine chapter organization, I agree.

 

I'm leaning towards something like this too, possibly adding them into a battle company or two in order to either replace or supplement the assault squads


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#14
Bryan Blaire

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Apparently it's a lot faster and they go into full armour from the get go.
They are also implanted with combat tactics and general knowledge memories.

Again, the implantation order for Primaris from the Index Astartes is the exact same as a standard Marine's, with the extra organs added into the same time frame. It takes exactly the same amount of time as any standard Marine, per the text, and they can't go into full power armor from the get-go, because they don't get their Black Carapace until year 4-5ish.

And ALL Marines are implanted with combat tactics and general knowledge memories. Primaris are not unique in that regard.

The current Codex: Space Marines says the following:

TACTICAL FLEXIBILITY
The newly rewritten Codex Astartes allows for each Battle Company to be reinforced with additional troops reassigned from the Reserve Companies. These seconded battle-brothers typically form squads XI upwards. Once attached to a Battle Company, it is standard practice for the newly joined reserve squads to take new markings corresponding to their new company, although the rapid nature of war does not always afford time for such a formality.

Honestly, the Reserve company reinforcements seems like a good place, but the C:SM shows Primaris Aggressors as Fire Support Squads, but on their datasheet, they have the Elite slot icon as well. I wouldn't necessarily take the game rules slot the unit occupies on its datasheet as the same as the functional "fluff" location that such a squad would be utilized in.

So I think you are very free to simply put your Reivers into a Battle Company slot previously occupied by an Assault squad if you want.
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#15
Harrowmaster

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If that is the case, then maybe the 10th company as a supplement to the recruits might be a good fit


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#16
Bryan Blaire

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If that is the case, then maybe the 10th company as a supplement to the recruits might be a good fit

Since Reivers are full Marines (no longer Scouts), I don't personally believe they really fit as actual members of the 10th Company, unless they are being used as Sergeants.

Now, being seconded to the 10th Company for a mission to supplement them might work, but at that point, if they are re-seconded, they wouldn't be considered a 10th Company complement, but a complement from whatever Reserve Company they were originally from.
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#17
Harrowmaster

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Possibly, the infiltration and guerrilla nature of the unit meshes well with the scouts and could be seen as a more experienced element of the company that assists with training  


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#18
sfPanzer

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The thing is that Reiver take up a completely new role on the battlefield for loyalist Marines. They do something that we've known only from Night Lords and some special narratives about Scouts or Kill Teams on independent missions. Reiver prepare the opponent for the arrival of the actual force. They skirt around the edges of the battlefield before and during the actual fighting and disrupt the flow of the opponents forces with terror/guerilla tactics.

They simply don't fit any of the classic roles for Marines which are usually more focused on all-out warfare to end battles quickly where the AM would fight for days and weeks longer with more casualties.

So if you want to compare them with regular Marine units it would be either Scouts or Assault Marines from a Chapter that acts more like Night Lords rather than say Blood Angels. That however doesn't mean they'd be part of the same company at all.


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Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

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#19
Harrowmaster

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The thing is that Reiver take up a completely new role on the battlefield for loyalist Marines. They do something that we've known only from Night Lords and some special narratives about Scouts or Kill Teams on independent missions. Reiver prepare the opponent for the arrival of the actual force. They skirt around the edges of the battlefield before and during the actual fighting and disrupt the flow of the opponents forces with terror/guerilla tactics.

They simply don't fit any of the classic roles for Marines which are usually more focused on all-out warfare to end battles quickly where the AM would fight for days and weeks longer with more casualties.

So if you want to compare them with regular Marine units it would be either Scouts or Assault Marines from a Chapter that acts more like Night Lords rather than say Blood Angels. That however doesn't mean they'd be part of the same company at all.

 

So, do you think in most chapters they would make up their own formation or would they be found amongst the companies?


My (very slow) Alpha Legion blog for the Horus Heresy:

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#20
Bryan Blaire

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Possibly, the infiltration and guerrilla nature of the unit meshes well with the scouts and could be seen as a more experienced element of the company that assists with training

I don't disagree that they couldn't supplement them for training, etc., I just wouldn't put the Reiver squads as part of the 10th Company as they are full Marines, and not recruits.

Obviously YMMV, but I wouldn't put them in the 10th as permanent 10th Company units. They act like an outrider unit, like a bike squad or scout bike squad probably would, or the Ravenwing bike units.
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#21
Ishagu

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According to Devastation of Baal Primaris are created using a new piece of technology called a Genesis Chamber. Not sure the implantation is done in the same manner, despite what the codex says?

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#22
sfPanzer

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Keep in mind that Blood Angels have their own special way to create Marines where they implant all the organs at once and keep them in a sarcophagus/chamber for a year. The new recruits literally go in as children and come out as Space Marines except for the black carapace.

I'd have to re-read the Devastation of Baal to know the details about the Genesis Chambers but afaik Bryan is right.


Edited by sfPanzer, 05 August 2018 - 05:23 PM.

Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

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#23
Robbienw

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There is no such thing as Primaris Scouts, they go straight into power armour. Presumably in whichever squad role they are trained into from the off.

#24
Bryan Blaire

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And even when the BA come out of their sarcophagi transformed, they still undergo training as Scouts even though they have all the organs (I'm not sure whether they do or don't have the Black Carapace after the year in the sarcophagi personally, I don't remember that this was not grown in them as well).

So even if all Primaris were to be kept in a Genesis Chamber for the entire implantation period as short as 2-4 years (practically the shortest period that stages in the Index Astartes outline (from 14-16 years for the initiate - which would basically be a perfected implantation, which is what Primaris implantation is supposed to be), they would likely still be subject to some amount of time as a Scout. It might be shorter (likely even much shorter) than a standard Marine though, but I don't doubt the traditional Marine Chapters would want to put them through their paces before jumping them into the rest of the Chapter.

There is no such thing as Primaris Scouts, they go straight into power armour. Presumably in whichever squad role they are trained into from the off.

Sure, if that floats your boat, go with it... personally, it doesn't work for me - I can see the original Cawl-made ones working that way, they may have even had their own proving periods under him in and out of stasis, but once they begin to be made by the more traditional Chapters, I can only see them being put through paces for some period.

And before anyone says "But obviously there are no Scouts with the Primaris key word" - true, but the Repulsor and Redemptor don't have the Primaris key word either...
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#25
Harrowmaster

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Regardless of whether or not primaris marines spend time as scouts, most agree they don't fit the 10th. So maybe instead of assault marines in the battle companies?

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