Ideas to improve upon Primaris Marines lore

[BitsHammer]

Even without the mutations (for now, and likely not until they get around to releasing models for them) the fact that the Primaris can still be affected means that the new guys aren't going to be immune to these problems forever.

[Brother Lunkhead]

Even without the mutations (for now, and likely not until they get around to releasing models for them) the fact that the Primaris can still be affected means that the new guys aren't going to be immune to these problems forever.

 

Right

[Lemondish]

I like geneseed degradation as an explanation for any size discrepancies. Particularly as it allows use of relic armour and weapons which was one thing I disliked about the primaris early on. "This chainsword has been used by our brothers for ten thousand years. It has slain innumerable traitors and xenos. But stuff it, cawl has designed a better one." It also raises the possibility of a "cure" for oldmarines which might mean eg a primaris sized ragnar blackmane model could be released.

 

In terms of cawl, I would like a mars focused novel to explain how cawl was semi exiled for daring to innovate and the massive upheaval of the rift and guilliman returning allowed him to launch a coup to become future fabricator General - especially as it sets up a potential future conflict between innovators and stagnation in the admech.

Something being used for 10k years means little if you think those using it are idiots.

 

Like the other poster said - I'd like them to start exploring the inherent conflict between a marine used to what the Imperium was when the emperor was around and remembers it like it was yesterday and one who's seen the past 10k years of war pledged to a corpse.

[Brother Casman]

So, a comment elsewhere suggested that the Primaris Space Marine's new tech was partly coming from tech that the Mechanicus had all along. That got me thinking... what if, when Guilliman came back, he saw that the Terran and Martian parts of the Imperium were slowly splitting apart? And knowing that humanity divided would fall ever faster, he decided to reinforce the links between the two hearts of the Imperium. Since the Adeptus Astartes are among the more pragmatic of the Imperium's forces, he asked the Mechanicus to outfit the Space Marines with some "traditional" Martian tech (like better plasma weapons), seek out tweaks to the existing bolt weaponry, reverse-engineer Arkhan Land's grav tech, etc. Along the way, Cawl, a (formerly) minor researcher of the original Adeptus Astartes Project, approaches Guilliman with the (partially corrupted) files that enable the creation of the first Primaris Space Marines.

 

There are a few catches though, Cawl is quite mad, since he's been around for a ridiculously long time, and the incomplete files mean that the Primaris Space Marines are only somewhat better than their peers, though it's not immediately obvious what their flaws are (which will get explored in further developments). Further, the Martian traditionalists are privately offended by Guilliman "taking what's theirs" for the Adeptus Astartes (maybe some go so far as to leave and join the Dark Mechanicus?), and several chapters among the Space Marines are offended at the implication that they are somehow "lacking" (perhaps the Sons of Dorn are the most vocal? Perhaps the Sons of the Lion do their level best to avoid all contact with Guilliman?).

 

Of course, this is also ignoring what's happening in the Ecclesiarchy, the High Lords of Terra, and the greater Imperium - one of the Emperor's Sons has returned! What does that do, having a living link to their God-Emperor?

Schisms at best.

 

And Guilliman sees all of this - he's too good of a statesman to not see it. His hope is that he can hold things together long enough for it to actually work, though privately he despairs that it'll never happen. So, he throws himself into battle, striving to lead by example, and partly to find a brother - a peer to discuss things with, though he fears he'll never find what he's looking for.

 

So, the Primaris Space Marines end up being partly symbolic of the renewed ties between Mars and Terra, but the symbolism is just papering over the cracks. And Guilliman knows it.

[Bjorn Firewalker]

So, a comment elsewhere suggested that the Primaris Space Marine's new tech was partly coming from tech that the Mechanicus had all along. That got me thinking... what if, when Guilliman came back, he saw that the Terran and Martian parts of the Imperium were slowly splitting apart? And knowing that humanity divided would fall ever faster, he decided to reinforce the links between the two hearts of the Imperium. Since the Adeptus Astartes are among the more pragmatic of the Imperium's forces, he asked the Mechanicus to outfit the Space Marines with some "traditional" Martian tech (like better plasma weapons)...

 

<Snip.>

 

So, the Primaris Space Marines end up being partly symbolic of the renewed ties between Mars and Terra, but the symbolism is just papering over the cracks. And Guilliman knows it.

This is well-articulated.

[Leif Bearclaw]

There is just some cool things we can do lore wise and table top wise:

 

 

 

Thing is, most of those aren't 'cool', and would likely be highly divisive and/or very hard to implement.

 

 

Lysander is now the IF chapter master... But his need for vengeance against the iron warriors have consumed him to the point where the Fists are depleted and he has been censured by Guilliman himself.

That isn't a new character. Granted, it was weird they didn't promote Lysander like they did Shrike, but adding 'Chapter Master' wouldn't really change Lysander. He's still an IF in TDA with Hammer etc. And no, I for one have had enough of 'Chapter X is depleted' stories recently, and we don't need Gulliman sticking his nose into other First Founding Chapter's when that sort of thing is precisely what offices like Chaplain are for.

 

 

Dante is now Dante the Damned, a special death company hero who just won't die in the suicidal assaults he gets thrown into... A tragic end to the most heroic of Astartes.

This is just Leamartes' fluff tacked onto Dante. And it would be a very poor end to such an important character for the BAs.

 

What if Ventris is now the old man Chapter Master of the Ultramarines, the last legacy Marine of the Ultramarines appointed by Guilliman himself.

 

This only is even possible if you kill off Calgar, Cassius, Tigurius, Telion, Sicarius and probably Chronos all of which are definitely older than Ventris. Which is a bit of a shift, and would be a complete minefield to not screw up royally.

 

 

What if Sicarius ends up a Black Legion special character. Maybe his narcissism couldn't handle being replaced by a newer type of Marine.

This is probably the worst of the bunch. I know Sicarius isn't exactly a fan favourite of the Ultras, but imo no special character should be flipped to Chaos. Chaos already has a bunch, and all that would achieve is to people off.

 

To be honest, it'd be good if they remember the scale they're dealing with. They don't need to kill off established characters to 'make room' for new Primaris ones. Just tell the stories of these new Primaris heroes. It's a big Galaxy, we can deal with more than a dozen or so people doing everything. Then, if you really want to, you can phase out some of the older characters, but if the 'new' are already established characters in their own right, then it'll probably go down better and feel less like a cynical replacement. If they're doing this whole 'gradual advancement' instead of massive jumps and info dumps, they should be patient and do things gradually.

[robofish7591]

I personally would rather see some new characters come out of the Ultima founding chapters.  Maybe have a Badab War-esque campaign that could flesh out some newer chapters with new characters.  We have had the same characters in the first founding chapters for a long time, I don't want to see them go but I would like to see some new characters get a little bit of the spot light now and then.

[BitsHammer]

New First Founding Primaris characters would be good. ESPECIALLY if they're for some of the chapters who desperately need characters and not just 10 new Ultramarines.

[Bjorn Firewalker]

New First Founding Primaris characters would be good. ESPECIALLY if they're for some of the chapters who desperately need characters and not just 10 new Ultramarines.

It's about damn time the Iron Hands get some.

[UnkyHamHam]

So, a comment elsewhere suggested that the Primaris Space Marine's new tech was partly coming from tech that the Mechanicus had all along. That got me thinking... what if, when Guilliman came back, he saw that the Terran and Martian parts of the Imperium were slowly splitting apart? And knowing that humanity divided would fall ever faster, he decided to reinforce the links between the two hearts of the Imperium. Since the Adeptus Astartes are among the more pragmatic of the Imperium's forces, he asked the Mechanicus to outfit the Space Marines with some "traditional" Martian tech (like better plasma weapons), seek out tweaks to the existing bolt weaponry, reverse-engineer Arkhan Land's grav tech, etc. Along the way, Cawl, a (formerly) minor researcher of the original Adeptus Astartes Project, approaches Guilliman with the (partially corrupted) files that enable the creation of the first Primaris Space Marines.

 

There are a few catches though, Cawl is quite mad, since he's been around for a ridiculously long time, and the incomplete files mean that the Primaris Space Marines are only somewhat better than their peers, though it's not immediately obvious what their flaws are (which will get explored in further developments). Further, the Martian traditionalists are privately offended by Guilliman "taking what's theirs" for the Adeptus Astartes (maybe some go so far as to leave and join the Dark Mechanicus?), and several chapters among the Space Marines are offended at the implication that they are somehow "lacking" (perhaps the Sons of Dorn are the most vocal? Perhaps the Sons of the Lion do their level best to avoid all contact with Guilliman?).

 

Of course, this is also ignoring what's happening in the Ecclesiarchy, the High Lords of Terra, and the greater Imperium - one of the Emperor's Sons has returned! What does that do, having a living link to their God-Emperor?

Schisms at best.

 

And Guilliman sees all of this - he's too good of a statesman to not see it. His hope is that he can hold things together long enough for it to actually work, though privately he despairs that it'll never happen. So, he throws himself into battle, striving to lead by example, and partly to find a brother - a peer to discuss things with, though he fears he'll never find what he's looking for.

 

So, the Primaris Space Marines end up being partly symbolic of the renewed ties between Mars and Terra, but the symbolism is just papering over the cracks. And Guilliman knows it.

I wish this was the way it was. I know this is just a snippet summary, but it honestly does a better job building the fluff to conform to the foundation of the setting. This is good stuff.

[Boldthreat]

 

 

There is just some cool things we can do lore wise and table top wise:

 

 

Thing is, most of those aren't 'cool', and would likely be highly divisive and/or very hard to implement.

Lysander is now the IF chapter master... But his need for vengeance against the iron warriors have consumed him to the point where the Fists are depleted and he has been censured by Guilliman himself.

That isn't a new character. Granted, it was weird they didn't promote Lysander like they did Shrike, but adding 'Chapter Master' wouldn't really change Lysander. He's still an IF in TDA with Hammer etc. And no, I for one have had enough of 'Chapter X is depleted' stories recently, and we don't need Gulliman sticking his nose into other First Founding Chapter's when that sort of thing is precisely what offices like Chaplain are for.

Dante is now Dante the Damned, a special death company hero who just won't die in the suicidal assaults he gets thrown into... A tragic end to the most heroic of Astartes.

This is just Leamartes' fluff tacked onto Dante. And it would be a very poor end to such an important character for the BAs.

What if Ventris is now the old man Chapter Master of the Ultramarines, the last legacy Marine of the Ultramarines appointed by Guilliman himself.

 

This only is even possible if you kill off Calgar, Cassius, Tigurius, Telion, Sicarius and probably Chronos all of which are definitely older than Ventris. Which is a bit of a shift, and would be a complete minefield to not screw up royally.

What if Sicarius ends up a Black Legion special character. Maybe his narcissism couldn't handle being replaced by a newer type of Marine.

This is probably the worst of the bunch. I know Sicarius isn't exactly a fan favourite of the Ultras, but imo no special character should be flipped to Chaos. Chaos already has a bunch, and all that would achieve is to people off.

 

To be honest, it'd be good if they remember the scale they're dealing with. They don't need to kill off established characters to 'make room' for new Primaris ones. Just tell the stories of these new Primaris heroes. It's a big Galaxy, we can deal with more than a dozen or so people doing everything. Then, if you really want to, you can phase out some of the older characters, but if the 'new' are already established characters in their own right, then it'll probably go down better and feel less like a cynical replacement. If they're doing this whole 'gradual advancement' instead of massive jumps and info dumps, they should be patient and do things gradually.

I was just spitballing. I agree with some of what you are saying and some I don't. What's important to me (and I realize this is just one opinion) is that the codexes move with the setting. Right now I don't feel like they have.

 

If it has been 200 years since the start of the Indomitus Crusade then let's catch up. It used to make sense why we had the same characters over and over. Because the setting was frozen at a particular time and this was just the time of these named heroes. But we have moved the setting forward now. It's not just time and age thing either... It's also what happened in that time. We are talking about huge wars and conflicts that dwarf what has come before it with huge losses in traditional Astartes assets.

 

That's why I think it's important to promote the characters young enough to still be active like Ventris and kill off or retire the older characters. Ideally I think they should be replaced with Primaris characters as I do believe they are the future. I readily admit that I'm all in on the Primaris evolution of the Space Marines. I think enough time and wars have passed to allow for that transition for the most part.

 

But this isn't necessarily a Primaris point. Let's wave a hypothetical wand and remove them from existence and just go with the 200 year time jump. I'd still be advocating for different characters and the killing off or retiring of older ones. It's the nature of the Space Marines and the world they live in that would require this. That's why I wouldn't bat an eye at losing Kantor or Calgar or Dante.

 

Also I'm shocked you didn't like my Sicarius switching to the Black Legion idea... That was my favorite one... And I like Sicarius lol!

[Bjorn Firewalker]

I'd still be advocating for different characters and the killing off or retiring of older ones. It's the nature of the Space Marines and the world they live in that would require this.

All too true.

That's why I wouldn't bat an eye at losing Kantor or Calgar or Dante.

You may not bat an eye, but other 'Warhammer 40,000' fans WILL. If Games Workshop doesn't treat its own legacy characters with respect, these fans (including myself) will boycott the company. Haven't you heard what's happening to the 'Star Wars' franchise since 'The Last Jedi' went on theaters?

Also I'm shocked you didn't like my Sicarius switching to the Black Legion idea... That was my favorite one... And I like Sicarius lol!

A loyal Ultramarine turning traitor? That will be as well received as a heterosexual Iceman turning homosexual, a loyal Captain America turning into a Hydra (anti-American) agent, a happily married Spider-Man giving up his marriage in a literal "deal with the devil," a proud Thor giving up his very name to some girl...

 

If Marvel Comics' crashing sales isn't an indication, your proposed change will result in an utter disaster for Games Workshop. Is your plan to force the company to declare bankruptcy and then auction off its intellectual properties, so you can buy the rights to 'Warhammer 40,000' and then change the franchise however you like?

Edited September 20, 2018 by Bjorn Firewalker

[Boldthreat]

Fair points Bjorn.  I see where you are coming from and I understand it.  Respectfully I have to disagree with your position, however.

 

1st.  Regarding a loyal Ultramarine turning traitor.  I wish the lore were like that.  The child in me wants to believe that no Imperial Fist or no Ultramarine would ever fall to Chaos... would ever shirk their duty for selfish ends.  But that is just not the universe as it is portrayed.  As an adult I have come to understand that and respect it.  We know that loyal space marines fall to Chaos in this setting, heck I am still mad that Black Library created a new 2nd Founding Imperial Fist chapter (Fists Exemplar) just to have them fall to chaos and be the first Chapter to fall post Heresy... I mean have they no shame lol! But it happens, and realistically should happen if the setting is as grim and dark as we all have come to understand it.  Having a known, playable character with 20 years of game history behind him, end up a Black Legion Champion post his disappearance in this new Dark Imperium would certainly be a real and fun way to hit home the lore we all enjoy in a real tangible way on the table top itself.

 

2nd.  I do not believe that Space Marines dying in battle against tough and determined adversaries, or succumbing to the influence of the Dark Gods (in a setting where this happens to the greatest of heroes) to be disrespecting them.  I believe it giving them fully realized character archs that can be studied and enjoyed.  There is nothing disrespectful about bringing characters to their logical ends and creating new characters to replace them.  Space Marines live by the sword.  They die by it too.  Do not rob these characters of the great and epic deaths they deserve.  You know as well as I do that a story regarding the Death of Calgar would be handled with great care and respect... much like the Death of Wolverine.  I would be so ready to read that story.  

 

3rd.  I enjoyed all your points about Iceman, Captain America, Thor and Spider Man.  I get it.  I really do.  And I would agree with you in all of your analysis on their individual stories.  But those guys do not live in this setting.  I believe the setting of 40k is bigger than Sicarius, and Calgar... and Kantor and any other Space Marine hero.  I believe Space Marine Chapters are bigger than individual characters.  Its not like they are going to kill of Calgar and we get a female Marine in his stead.  No.  We will get a new Ultramarine character that is just as full of Courage and Honour as Calgar was.  Who went through the same training.  Fought the same kind of wars.  Rose to Mastery in the same warrior Society as Calgar did.  And there is already precedent for this.  Xavier, Tycho, Cortez (God rest his soul).  This has already happened.  

 

4th.  Would you really boycott GW if they killed off characters?  I find that fascinating if so.  Heck they have already done it.  Did you lament Cortez going away?  Xavier?  The Death of Tycho?  Were you close to boycotting GW for killing those characters?  What about the in lore death of Vladimir Pugh?  Maybe its my own understanding of war and death, and what this setting is, that makes it easy for me to accept this reality.  Maybe I grew up in a different time... Captain Eshara, a noble hero in his novel, can be ripped apart by an abomination.  Chaplain Boreus can convince his whole squad to kill themselves for the greater good of their Chapter... and Rogal Dorn can willingly sacrifice himself because he new he was starting to be worshiped by humanity...  Its time the table top characters lived up to their setting like their Black Library counter-parts do.  Models be damned.

[Bjorn Firewalker]

Would you really boycott GW if they killed off characters?

Depends on how it's done. For my favorite, Ragnar Blackmane, I'd demand at least a full page detailing his last stand in the next Codex, plus a full and COMPETENTLY WRITTEN novel giving further details on the Why and How, plus a replacement character with a cool-looking model and competitive rules to plug up the resulting gap in my army's HQ (and who can serve as a "counts as Ragnar Blackmane," if I feel nostalgic).

 

However, Games Workshop's writers have a tendency to leave what should be important and impactful events, to forgettable (and short) lines buried in the background sections of their Codices, as well as offhanded mentions by characters in the novels- as 1d4chan REPEATEDLY points out. Anyone still remember the Interex?

Edited September 20, 2018 by Bjorn Firewalker

[BitsHammer]

I'm going to have to disagree that killing established characters is somehow disrespectful. 40k has had dead characters in the game since at least 2nd edition (Uriah Jacobus from Codex: Sisters of Battle died to a plague, and we had a playable Canoness who went down like a boss to hold the line against Tyranids while the last evacuation shuttle full of Imperial citizens was launched which started an in universe legend that she and her Order of Sisters were fighting inside of the hive fleet to this day). Heck, even Captain Tycho has been dead for ages now but you can still put him in your army.

 

So no, killing some characters isn't disrespectful. If anything I feel the disrespect is removing characters without an in universe reason just because they felt the need to double down on their IP instead of giving the characters models. That was disrespectful to the player community who'd lovingly converted models to fit those characters and was disrespectful to the established history of the game which used to live and die off of such creativity.

 

So yeah, I don't think someone like Dante, or Draco dying is a bad thing. They could still stick around on the table after all, the thing is the death needs to be handled well and not just some quiet removal of stuff from the codex like they did in the past. At least not for an update or two after the death to give people time to move on from it in a way that is more respectful to the characters than "Nope, he's just gone now. Sucks to be you! Hope you didn't spend weeks planning and converting and painting a custom model for him like a sucker!"

[Panzer]

Killing established characters is fine if it fits the narrative but not if it's just for sake of having other characters. And justifying it with "Marines live a dangerous life and are expected to die on duty" is to be honest a rather weak argument since then it could be argued that we shouldn't have rules for any named characters at all.

[Triszin]

I kinda would like to see more special characters that are not just HQ choices.

 

kinda like how lucas the trickster is a elite choice.

 

primaris characters that are elite choices. a iron hands revier, where his limbs are all robotic would be neat.

 

-------------------

I'd like to see a bit more innovation and invention inregards to science and tech. specifically developed from techmarines on the front line, then the new invention is named to represent the chapter they came from but its shared across all.

[BitsHammer]

Killing established characters is fine if it fits the narrative but not if it's just for sake of having other characters. And justifying it with "Marines live a dangerous life and are expected to die on duty" is to be honest a rather weak argument since then it could be argued that we shouldn't have rules for any named characters at all.

I don't think they'd kill people just to have other characters replace them. At least not characters with models.

 

I mean instead of killing Lysander to give the Fists a new Primaris 1st Company Captain (for example) they would more likely have Lysander fall doing something awesome (like holding a gate against an Iron Warriors legion and die while still standing) and introduce a new 3rd or 5th company captain instead (since 3rd and 5th are the colors most common in GW's IF art).

[Brother Lunkhead]

Killing established characters is fine if it fits the narrative but not if it's just for sake of having other characters. And justifying it with "Marines live a dangerous life and are expected to die on duty" is to be honest a rather weak argument since then it could be argued that we shouldn't have rules for any named characters at all.

 

Quite right...… Marines die and that is a fact of the 40Kverse. While I'm certainly not advocating the whole sale slaughter of named characters I would not object to the demise of some characters if it is done with due respect and not in some ham handed way.... only in death does duty end

 

I also think this is the perfect opportunity to do something with a named Primaris character which has not really been done in a Space Marine novel series. That is to follow a character from neophyte to veteran status... You can argue that this has been done to some degree with Ragnar, but he's really been stuck in time and his career extant has not been fully explored. I'm talking about following a character ala C.S. Forester's Horatio Hornblower…… just an idea.

[Bjorn Firewalker]

I also think this is the perfect opportunity to do something with a named Primaris character which has not really been done in a Space Marine novel series. That is to follow a character from neophyte to veteran status... You can argue that this has been done to some degree with Ragnar, but he's really been stuck in time and his career extant has not been fully explored. I'm talking about following a character ala C.S. Forester's Horatio Hornblower…… just an idea.

This is an excellent way to introduce new characters WITHOUT getting fans to instantly denounce a new character as a "Mary Sue." Hell, if Cato Sicarius and Kardan Stronos were introduced with a series of full-length novels to let fans learn of the characters' weaknesses AS WELL AS strengths, beliefs BESIDES "Emperor good, everything else bad," interests BESIDES war... Well, 4chan would be far less likely to mock them, or to fill gaps in 'Warhammer 40,000' fans' knowledge of these characters with useless memes like "he replaced his [censored] with a power drill-cannon," or "he talks like an [insulting stereotype]."

Edited September 20, 2018 by Bjorn Firewalker

[FlamingDeth]

The main problem isn't space marine characters not dying occasionally, it's that after a hundred year time skip a bunch of front line professional soldiers have suffered no casualties. I wouldn't normally advocate killing off multiple named characters at once, but it seems appropriate given the length of time we're talking about.

[Panzer]

100 years really is nothing for Marines, especially named characters. Most Marines are way older than 100 years lol

[Lord_Caerolion]

It's when the same thing has happened with all the Imperial Guard special characters that it gets a bit ridiculous.

[Kallas]

The Warp does involve time bending bull ::cuss . Someone might be 50 years old but due to Warp travel may be in a battle 55/60/100 years after their birth. Considering how often Astartes, especially, will be utilising Warp travel then it would make sense for there to be some time distortion.

 

Further, there is a huge ass tear in the galaxy caused by the same time-bending plane of existence. But that couldn't possibly have any effect

[Robbienw]

That's right.  Baal lost 70 years of time when the great rift opened for example.