Jump to content

Welcome to The Bolter and Chainsword
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. If you already have an account, login here - otherwise create an account for free today!
Photo

Ideas to improve upon Primaris Marines lore


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
392 replies to this topic

#376
sfPanzer

sfPanzer

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 12,763 posts
  • Location:Germany
  • Faction: Knights of Baal

Yeah while defending Baal against the Tyranids the whole Cadia thing happened simultaneously and like a day later Guilliman and his Crusade arrived to kill off the remaining Tyranids that got left over after the Rift and the Khorne Daemons messed with them. ^^


Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

gallery_62972_10568_7658.jpgbFk9acX.pnggallery_62972_14467_40478.pnggallery_62972_10568_4118.jpg


#377
Xisor

Xisor

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 876 posts
In terms of the lore, do you hear the preposterousness of advocating for divorce of Chaos and Imperial?

It's an artificial divide.

In terms of specific model releases, it makes some sense, but almost everything that exists for the Imperium can be corrupted by Chaos.

Whilst I can appreciate it from a tabletop rules and model view, from a 'theme', it doesn't make actual sense.

As the age old quip (Portent.net, or earlier, I'm sure) went: the first thing a renegade Chapter does is throw out all its Whirlwinds and Landspeeders.

Chaos has no use for them!

They've missed a trick with the keywords though. ;)
  • sfPanzer and Kallas like this

#378
Ishagu

Ishagu

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 12,738 posts
  • Location:Britannia, Holy Terra
  • Faction: Ultramarines
I think the ranges are starting to be more distinguished anyways. Look at Death Guard and their unique units, also Thousand Sons are now similar in this regard after the AoS additions. I hope we never see any corrupter Primaris just to keep them as a unique loyalist force. When Emperor's Children come out the same will hopefully happen. Unique units, vehicles, etc
  • Bjorn Firewalker and sfPanzer like this

-~Ishagu~-


#379
Bjorn Firewalker

Bjorn Firewalker

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 6,545 posts
  • Location:Catachan
  • Faction: Catachan Wolves
I agree, Ishagu. Chaos armies need to distinguish themselves as more than just "Imperial armies, but spiky and evil."

Edited by Bjorn Firewalker, 18 October 2018 - 02:29 PM.

  • Ishagu likes this

Wolf Scout- Catachan barking toad eggs+ Thousand Sons Marine= Fun! (Wolves of Catachan)
Sisters of Battle+ Fenrisian Beer- Inhibitions- Sanity= Trouble! (Order of the Blazing Heart Rocket Punch Pimp Magnet She-Wolf)

 

Reasons to use the Steel Crusaders ('Codex: Space Marines' supplement): Because you think giving Sternguard Veterans a heavy bolter wtih special issue HEAVY BOLTER ammunition is ALMOST as much fun as shoehorning an Earthshaker cannon into a Land Raider.

 

Reasons to use the Iron-hearted Angels ('Codex: Blood Angels' supplement): Because you think the Librarian Dreadnought needs Furious Charge AND It Will Not Die to beat down a Chaos-worshiping punk and his Defiler, while a Stormraven needs a Vanquisher cannon to beat down this punk's Heldrake.


#380
sfPanzer

sfPanzer

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 12,763 posts
  • Location:Germany
  • Faction: Knights of Baal

Agreed. It seems GW is going more towards the "they're old legions who either used up their old legions or got them turned into something different by the warp/dark mechanicum" direction instead of "they are a random corrupted chapter who just threw their modern stuff away because renegades herp derp".

It doesn't really do a lot for actual renegades but it offers a LOT of freedom to design more unique toys for each individual legion that separates them from imperial forces while at the same time with Primaris they do the same thing on the imperial side.

Over time we will end up with legions with cool and individual toys on one side and Primaris chapters/pseudo legions on the other side instead of just Marines and Marines with spikes (and some few cool toys).


Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

gallery_62972_10568_7658.jpgbFk9acX.pnggallery_62972_14467_40478.pnggallery_62972_10568_4118.jpg


#381
Xisor

Xisor

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 876 posts
So how does that square with "Chaos corrupts"?

I'm not at all sure that it does.

In BFG, and with old Legions, that squares sortof sensibly - but it is still exceedingly flimsy. (And this is a lore thread.)

So, in terms of substantiating it or expanding on it, how do you see the justification going?

(I happen to like trying to squint and imagine the awkward explanations that can accommodate things, I think it's creative and enlightening, I just can't quite see what the angle is, or could be, here that is suitably compelling.)

If there was a visually distinct style for the 'Dark Adeptus' of the Dark Imperium, something that was more than simply "Imperium with spikes" (Currently it's "Imperium with fleshy tubes"), then I could see that being a new 'dark creed' that allows for thematic conversion kits and such, but that's just a new variety of the old 'with spikes', not really a substantial change.

So, again, where would you go with this?

Just background the renegades? Assume there are plenty of Chaos Primaris Chapters but that they're off screen because visually they're mostly boring?

I'm in a logical bind, I suppose.

For them not to exist is inconceivable, in my estimation. Incompatible, at least. Or requires a big rethink of my premise. You get me?

So I'm left thinking they must exist. And so what if they're spikey?

Currently Space Wolf/Dark Angels/Blood Angels Primaris are "just" Primaris with Wolf shoulders and the odd sword/helm.

New kits as something cool that's not just tweaks of the old? Sure. But that's not in contest with "Chaos Primaris", I don't think.

Conversion kits to expand usability of existing kits?

There's your Chaos Primaris. Easy. Next!



And then your Genestealer Primaris. ;)



(100% a thing that will definitely happen, honest guv.)

#382
sfPanzer

sfPanzer

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 12,763 posts
  • Location:Germany
  • Faction: Knights of Baal

Chaos corrupts over a long time on such a sclae. GW doesn't want to advance the story indefinitely. There is a definite point in time where :cuss hits the fan and the setting is basically over. 40k (or now 41k I guess) is right before that point in time. Often refered to as one minute before midnight. I think GWs current thinking is kinda that they don't have to worry about Primaris etc. getting corrupted because by that time they would've advanced the story beyond what is planned for the setting.

40k is WHFB endtimes in full force and unless they want to do something as drastic as AoS or retcon the whole setting they have to keep us there and only advance things just enough to tell us new stories. That's why the time used to be frozen from a narrative perspective and released stories were usually of past events. It also helps that time is screwed thanks to the great rift now I guess.


Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

gallery_62972_10568_7658.jpgbFk9acX.pnggallery_62972_14467_40478.pnggallery_62972_10568_4118.jpg


#383
Ishagu

Ishagu

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 12,738 posts
  • Location:Britannia, Holy Terra
  • Faction: Ultramarines
Individuals will still fall. We don't need to see entire Primaris chapters turn. That really would be Heresy 2.0

Edited by Ishagu, 18 October 2018 - 06:08 PM.

  • Bjorn Firewalker likes this

-~Ishagu~-


#384
Robbienw

Robbienw

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 1,056 posts
No it wouldn’t. Badab 2.0 maybe.

The heresy saw 9 entire legions turning, probably around 1 million marines in total. A couple chapters is minor by comparison.
  • Xisor likes this

#385
Xisor

Xisor

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 876 posts

No it wouldn’t. Badab 2.0 maybe.

The heresy saw 9 entire legions turning, probably around 1 million marines in total. A couple chapters is minor by comparison.


By Guilliman's design.

He's also, narratively, reversing that.

In 40k's Dark Imperium, it's not one minute to midnight. One minute to midnight was several months after the Thirteenth of Secundus (when the bombardment began), which was ten thousand years ago.

Alternatively, the Thirteenth Black Crusade hitting Cadia was 'one minute to midnight'.

One minute to midnight was two hundred years ago, in Roboute's timeline.

40k's storyline isn't WHFB Endtimes (that was pre-The Gathering Storm, where named characters were being killed off willy-nilly - cref Vladimir Pugh, Aun'va etc), that was baby/bathwater story telling.

40k's Dark Imperium is 'post apocalyptic' in 40k terms. The old order has fallen, or is falling, or is staggering around a wasteland blind and drunk insisting it still rules the galaxy. (And possibly does.)

But for Cadia, for Biel Tann?

The setting had its apocalypse. For some of it its still to hit. For some of it, the apocalypse is done and dusted.

I'm pleased, at least, that they made it explicitly more varied.

Ruins and a golden age.

But Chaos working over a long time?

Horus at Davin!

#386
Ishagu

Ishagu

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 12,738 posts
  • Location:Britannia, Holy Terra
  • Faction: Ultramarines
The recent books are some of the best 40k fiction we've had. I feel if more people read them they'd be in board.
  • sfPanzer likes this

-~Ishagu~-


#387
sfPanzer

sfPanzer

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 12,763 posts
  • Location:Germany
  • Faction: Knights of Baal

 


In 40k's Dark Imperium, it's not one minute to midnight. One minute to midnight was several months after the Thirteenth of Secundus (when the bombardment began), which was ten thousand years ago.

Alternatively, the Thirteenth Black Crusade hitting Cadia was 'one minute to midnight'.

One minute to midnight was two hundred years ago, in Roboute's timeline.

40k's storyline isn't WHFB Endtimes (that was pre-The Gathering Storm, where named characters were being killed off willy-nilly - cref Vladimir Pugh, Aun'va etc), that was baby/bathwater story telling.

40k's Dark Imperium is 'post apocalyptic' in 40k terms. The old order has fallen, or is falling, or is staggering around a wasteland blind and drunk insisting it still rules the galaxy. (And possibly does.)

But for Cadia, for Biel Tann?

The setting had its apocalypse. For some of it its still to hit. For some of it, the apocalypse is done and dusted.

I'm pleased, at least, that they made it explicitly more varied.

Ruins and a golden age.

But Chaos working over a long time?

Horus at Davin!

 

 

That's just wrong. You are thinking way too small for the 40k narrative scale. It's still one minute to midnight. Maybe 59 seconds to midnight. But definitely not midnight or past midnight. That term describes the point in time when everything collapse and terra itself falls. Things got worse but it's still about to get even worse than that. We are still in the middle of the apocalypse, it just advanced a little bit further.


The recent books are some of the best 40k fiction we've had. I feel if more people read them they'd be in board.

 

For sure. I love Dark Imperium, Watchers of the Throne and the Fabius Bile novels and I'm looking forward to more!


Edited by sfPanzer, 18 October 2018 - 07:25 PM.

Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

gallery_62972_10568_7658.jpgbFk9acX.pnggallery_62972_14467_40478.pnggallery_62972_10568_4118.jpg


#388
CardinalVirtue

CardinalVirtue

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 1,068 posts
  • Faction: The Raven Order
From an Ork player point of view, anyone who wants the imperium's new toys for chaos for narrative purposes just need to hop on board with conversions and counts as. Want aggressors, but spiky? Run them as obliterators! Want a stormtalon but with MOAR SKULLS? Convert it up and run it as a heldrake! As long as there's a profile in your book that's "close enough" and you put effort into your conversion you should be all set.
  • Inquisitor Dracos, Firepower, sfPanzer and 1 other like this

#389
Ishagu

Ishagu

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 12,738 posts
  • Location:Britannia, Holy Terra
  • Faction: Ultramarines
Why would anyone actually WANT to just repeat units across books? It's led to the big mess that we have now where units can't be updated without a snowball effect that reaches across many factions.
Chaos shouldn't just be Spiky Marines. I want to see crazy, unique stuff that has diverged greatly.
  • Inquisitor Dracos, Bjorn Firewalker and sfPanzer like this

-~Ishagu~-


#390
sfPanzer

sfPanzer

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 12,763 posts
  • Location:Germany
  • Faction: Knights of Baal

I don't even want a unit repeated in the SAME book but that's a whole different design problem for Marines lol


  • Ishagu likes this

Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

gallery_62972_10568_7658.jpgbFk9acX.pnggallery_62972_14467_40478.pnggallery_62972_10568_4118.jpg


#391
Lord_Caerolion

Lord_Caerolion

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 2,785 posts
  • Faction: Lamenters

If anything, once they start expanding more on the Chaos Legions, we'll probably get a Codex: Heretic Astartes: Renegades and Traitors, or something like that, essentially moving the current Chaos Marine codex to be more representative of the Renegade Chapters like the Red Corsairs, while the other Chaos Legions get their own books.


  • Ishagu likes this

"And then Horus landed on the Moon, which looked like the moon. Funny that, isn't it?"


You're hired.


#392
Ishagu

Ishagu

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 12,738 posts
  • Location:Britannia, Holy Terra
  • Faction: Ultramarines
What I love about Death Guard and Thousand Sons is that they aren't just a colour variation with one cult unit thrown in. I really hope Emperor's Children are as unique.

-~Ishagu~-


#393
Brother Tyler

Brother Tyler

    ++ FIDELIS MILITUS ++

  • +++ADMINISTRATUM+++
  • 19,296 posts
  • Location:The Temple of Oaths
  • Faction: VIIth Legion

I guess we're done talking about how we'd improve the lore that introduced the Primaris Marines to the setting.


  • Brother Adelard likes this

gallery_26_548_13550.pnggallery_26_6416_0.gifgallery_26_548_4494.png





1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users