Ideas to improve upon Primaris Marines lore

[Ishagu]

 

This kind of negativity and vitriol is very tiresome. I can't take your opinion seriously and you adds nothing to the discussion.

The opposite stance, that Primaris are great and just dandy, is also extremely tiring and adds nothing.

 

While his opinion is extreme, it's not uncommon (well, the general thrust of it, maybe not the Squatting part). Primaris are a very devisive topic - and relentless optimism (as you have displayed quite often) is just as grating to some of us as Endova's is to you.

I don't know a single person in real life that openly dislikes them. The negativity is created by vocal minorities and it's most certainly tiresome.

[Kallas]

I don't know a single person in real life that openly dislikes them. The negativity is created by vocal minorities and it's most certainly tiresome.

Hi. I am a real person, in real life, and I dislike the Primaris lore (as well as the majority of their models). I know at least three others in my local area that are essentially the same as me, and many others have varying opinions (eg, some like the models but not the fluff; some like them; some dislike them).

 

Your attitude is incredibly dismissive, and that is what makes the divide tiresome. I'm sure you haven't met anyone in person that dislikes them, but that doesn't mean that the people that dislike Primaris are a minority, simply that you don't know any in your area - and that could also be a huge factor: do you travel much? How big is your local group? Is it you and one friend, or is it a whole state-wide group of hundreds? If the latter, have you really gone round and gotten everyone's opinions?

 

For me, my gaming circle is approximately 15-30 people. I've only really spoken properly with maybe 10-15 of them about Marines/Primaris.

 

Please stop equating your own experience as the de facto standard. I am not assuming that everyone hates Primaris; please don't assume that 99% love them.

 

Edit:

You're allowed to enjoy the Primaris, no-one is trying to stop you. But not everyone agrees, and they have varying different reasons.

Edited August 6, 2018 by Kallas

[Jarl Caldersson]

Okay can we get off the subject of who likes and dislikes Primaris. Let's get on point of what the Grieux wanted, improving on the primaris lore to help them fit your taste.

[Ishagu]

Well, this topic is quite contentious as it assumes the consensus is general dissatisfaction. That simply isn't true.

 

Also, posts like "The Primaris should get squatted" are definitely not constructive and shouldn't be excused or encouraged.

 

How about we accept what has happened and wait for additional lore in the coming months/year? And if you really are full of hate you can simply ignore them and continue using the old lines of models as if nothing has changed. No one is forcing anyone to use anything.

Edited August 6, 2018 by Ishagu

[RandyB]

 

I get that the introduction seemed force.  I can see that.  Why would they not have released the warriors during the War of the Beast... or before the 13th Black Crusade.  But this is 40k... maybe they did?!?  Maybe they were always there operating in the past or in secret wars.  The setting actively allows for conspiracies and half truths.  The setting is ripe to be rewritten or shown to be up when its actually down.  Its not that the idea of Primaris is bad, it was just really forced.  The solution is not to backpedal.  Its to fully realize the evolution and move forward with that product as the new normal for Imperial Space Marines.  It will fall into place and slowly we can come to the understanding that they are still the Space Marines we all love.  

 

This is all my opinion however, and I truly understand your position and feeling of this new direction.  But heck I am an old timer now.  I think Centurions are stupid.  I think Storm Ravens are stupid.  Why the heck is my genetically engineered super soldier infantry man flying a star fighter?  Cataphractii Terminators are cool sure, but are you telling me people think they look better than Indomitus?  Bull-hockey!  Indomitus Terminators are the coolest looking thing on the planet.  Mark 7 armor will always be cooler than Mark 4 or 10... period.  I get that.  That new Ultramarine guy... Felix  McNobody... he will never, ever be Marneus Augustus Calgar... but its time to move on.  Space Marines die.  Technology evolves.  Embrace it.  Honor the past, but buckle up for the future.  I think we will end up enjoying the ride.

 

 

As for the history, remember:

 

1. The Great Rift messed with time. So far, that is reported as "simple" time dilation/extension. So far.

2. Guilliman has commissioned an official history of the Imperium. So the history we have is even more officially "not necessarily correct and accurate", especially since there has been an entire Ordo Minoris of the Inquisition (Ordo Redactus) dedicated to keeping records obscure/inaccurate.

 

So the history can be "discovered" to be whatever GW wants it to be, and there is an in-lore context for it.

[Jackalwolf]

Regardless of the starting point of liking primaris or not it can be constructive since improving the lore will make those who like it enjoy more and maybe those who dislike it jump the fence.

 

The assumption was merely based on my observations in these forums and all the podcasts I listen to, I am yet to see anyone say the Primaris lore is fantastic or even well executed and I've only heard or read a handful of people say they actually like it.

 

Might be bias since I inhabit more the 30k side of the hobby where grimdark and old lore bunnies like myself are more present.

 

I personally really enjoy the miniature line and can't wait for it to be expanded but when you compare the lore with the HH series and your ADB, McNeills and Abbnets it just pales for me.

 

But if this thread has pushed me in some direction is to wait and see, it's indeed not really fair to compare 1 year of lore against 30 and as someone mentioned this may be the act 1.

 

Act 2 might blow my mind for all I know and that's why I'd like to explore how could that happen.

[Triszin]

When Primarch pf the revaen gaurd returns

 

its revealed that he's been shadow walking around the millenia, assisting and guiding Cawl.

while also leading the space sharks, and other raven guard.

 

He supplied cawl with the notes on the "meda marines" that he built with the emperor and assisted cawl with making the primaris.

 

This simple thing would fix primaris lore for the most part.

 

Have the real cawl, actually be "cawl in inferior" and all the brains of great admech merged to become "cawl the superior" to explain the knowledge base.

[Lucien Eilam]

I don't have any issue with Belisarius Cawl. There are loads of characters in the background who've single-handedly had enormous, Imperium-shaking influence. The problem is that the Primaris are all upside. That's not 40k, it's Star Trek. In 40k, when you meddle with forgotten technology, whatever you gain from it, there are horrific, unforeseen consequences.

 

They don't need to change what they've written. We just need the other boot to drop. Get your optimism out of my dystopian hellscape.

[Jackalwolf]

When Primarch pf the revaen gaurd returns

 

its revealed that he's been shadow walking around the millenia, assisting and guiding Cawl.

while also leading the space sharks, and other raven guard.

 

He supplied cawl with the notes on the "meda marines" that he built with the emperor and assisted cawl with making the primaris.

 

This simple thing would fix primaris lore for the most part.

 

Have the real cawl, actually be "cawl in inferior" and all the brains of great admech merged to become "cawl the superior" to explain the knowledge base.

Really like both ideas. Tying primaris to Corax’s raptors will definitely help fluff dinosaurs like myself like it more. Also the dea of Cawl being able to access the Mechanicum gestalt would indeed help make it less DEM.

 

Made me think of a certain girl who could access all knowledge... a certain Dalia Cythera

[deathspectersgt7]

When Primarch pf the revaen gaurd returns

 

its revealed that he's been shadow walking around the millenia, assisting and guiding Cawl.

while also leading the space sharks, and other raven guard.

 

He supplied cawl with the notes on the "meda marines" that he built with the emperor and assisted cawl with making the primaris.

 

This simple thing would fix primaris lore for the most part.

 

Have the real cawl, actually be "cawl in inferior" and all the brains of great admech merged to become "cawl the superior" to explain the knowledge base.

you said it better Than I . 

[Triszin]

I don't have any issue with Belisarius Cawl. There are loads of characters in the background who've single-handedly had enormous, Imperium-shaking influence. The problem is that the Primaris are all upside. That's not 40k, it's Star Trek. In 40k, when you meddle with forgotten technology, whatever you gain from it, there are horrific, unforeseen consequences.

 

They don't need to change what they've written. We just need the other boot to drop. Get your optimism out of my dystopian hellscape.

well perhaps we now see other issues with primaris become apparent.

 

The gen flaws of several chapters were known already, the wolves, Tsons, Bloodangels, Salamanders.

 

what if the primaris make the flaws worse when the marine becomes afflicted with them.

 

but what if primaris create flaws in the other "stable chatpers", since the gene seed is amplified, what was a minor minor occurance before and never manifested physically now manifests physically. showing that every chapter actually has gene flaws akin to wulfen or the thirst, just different.

[Schlitzaf]

My opinion is further push the part of 40k and Primaris that is important; They are Primaris MARINES. They are at end of the day the Adeptus Astartes and mankind only chance of survival. Something that I think is lost in all the love “Grimdark”. Is the most important line in all of 40k.

 

“There is only War”. It’s not only “defeat and death”, there is only war. The Primaris are Gulliman tool to save the Imperium, and his hope for mankind. All they can do is maintain the Imperium. They celebrated failing to reunite Imperium at end of Dark Imperium.

 

I think that is most important facet of Primaris, is they for all their might. And being a hope for a better tomorrow. They failed. They usher a new age and even Gulliman return didn’t change the reality of the 40k Verse. We are still teetering on threat of extinction.

 

What GW should focus on next with Primaris, is that all they can do is maintain status quo. And men of the Unnumbered Sons, they have awoken not to comradie but suspicion. And constant battle, and war to war. I would have Primaris story basically move to how someone from 30k integrates into 40k

[Jackalwolf]

My opinion is further push the part of 40k and Primaris that is important; They are Primaris MARINES. They are at end of the day the Adeptus Astartes and mankind only chance of survival. Something that I think is lost in all the love “Grimdark”. Is the most important line in all of 40k.

 

“There is only War”. It’s not only “defeat and death”, there is only war. The Primaris are Gulliman tool to save the Imperium, and his hope for mankind. All they can do is maintain the Imperium. They celebrated failing to reunite Imperium at end of Dark Imperium.

 

I think that is most important facet of Primaris, is they for all their might. And being a hope for a better tomorrow. They failed. They usher a new age and even Gulliman return didn’t change the reality of the 40k Verse. We are still teetering on threat of extinction.

 

What GW should focus on next with Primaris, is that all they can do is maintain status quo. And men of the Unnumbered Sons, they have awoken not to comradie but suspicion. And constant battle, and war to war. I would have Primaris story basically move to how someone from 30k integrates into 40k

I like that spin. Despite all the Imperium is at its worst. My own nerdrage didn't really let me appreciate that.

 

About the unnumbered sons it is a pity they dissolved. It's an aspect I really digged of dark Imperium.

[Red_Shift]

I like geneseed degradation as an explanation for any size discrepancies. Particularly as it allows use of relic armour and weapons which was one thing I disliked about the primaris early on. "This chainsword has been used by our brothers for ten thousand years. It has slain innumerable traitors and xenos. But stuff it, cawl has designed a better one." It also raises the possibility of a "cure" for oldmarines which might mean eg a primaris sized ragnar blackmane model could be released.

 

In terms of cawl, I would like a mars focused novel to explain how cawl was semi exiled for daring to innovate and the massive upheaval of the rift and guilliman returning allowed him to launch a coup to become future fabricator General - especially as it sets up a potential future conflict between innovators and stagnation in the admech.

[Ishagu]

No way, gene seed degradation is a terrible retcon. Also it's a suggestion that the standard marines are weaklings who really don't compare to their predecessors, in which case they should be replaced completely and without delay.

 

As for Cawl, RG specifically refused to make him fabricator general. This has already been addressed in Dark Imperium.

[Jarl Caldersson]

No way, gene seed degradation is a terrible retcon. Also it's a suggestion that the standard marines are weaklings who really don't compare to their predecessors, in which case they should be replaced completely and without delay.

As for Cawl, RG specifically refused to make him fabricator general. This has already been addressed in Dark Imperium.

What do you mean geneseed degrading is a retcon? It's been acknowledged in the past. HH traitors call modern Marines "thin-blood". Mutations are more prevalent than ever, Admech even state there is larger deviance then ever.

[Ishagu]

I mean to the extent where Marines are significantly smaller than their HH counterparts - as to explain why Primaris tower above them.

 

Also, Ultramarine geneseed is mutation free and accounts for 60% of all Astartes.

Edited August 6, 2018 by Ishagu

[Blindhamster]

I don't agree that it's well established or generally accepted that primaris lore is sub par. I do agree that there is a vocal group that dislikes it, but the majority of people I know like it, love it or are fine with it.

 

The only thing that is really needed is more expansion on how they were integrated into existing marine chapters and the imperium as a whole. Plus some more illumination on the process that went into making them. We know that cawl tried to achieve what corax had, we also know that only part of the process was as successful, corax' marines also learned and adapted faster before a large number of them were corrupted, I'd assume that means that he managed to get the other half of the god maker oefwj working so that it wasn't just physical enhancements.

 

Ultimately, it's not bad lore, it's new lore. This means it's less well expanded and hasn't got the depth of old lore yet, But doesn't mean it's bad, simply new. There will always be some that hate change and view it as a problem and others that embrace it for what it is - growth. Nothing was invalidated with the introduction of primaris, they're just a new facet of the imperial war machine.

 

Time will tell what happens with this, But retconning them back out of the lore would be a real shame of an opportunity in much the same way them totally replacing existing marines would be.

[Jarl Caldersson]

I mean to the extent where Marines are significantly smaller than their HH counterparts - as to explain why Primaris tower above them.

Also, Ultramarine geneseed is mutation free and accounts for 60% of all Astartes.

Well no not towering but I can forsee the HH Marines being taller by a marginal amount. We won't know until we get modern SW 13th company models. However being weaker/slower/etc I can see that happening.

 

UM are only a chapter of 1,000, not 60% of all Marines. UM successors are not mutation free, we only need to look at the Firehawke as an example. So stop your "UM are holier than thou" attitude when comparing UM to every other chapter.

[Boldthreat]

 

I mean to the extent where Marines are significantly smaller than their HH counterparts - as to explain why Primaris tower above them.

Also, Ultramarine geneseed is mutation free and accounts for 60% of all Astartes.

Well no not towering but I can forsee the HH Marines being taller by a marginal amount. We won't know until we get modern SW 13th company models. However being weaker/slower/etc I can see that happening.

 

UM are only a chapter of 1,000, not 60% of all Marines. UM successors are not mutation free, we only need to look at the Firehawke as an example. So stop your "UM are holier than thou" attitude when comparing UM to every other chapter.

 

 

While its true that Ultramarines are only a Chapter of 1000, it is also true that Ultramarine geneseed, including that of the primogenitors, is considered to be one of the purest stock available to the mechanicum.  The only other loyalist stock considered as pure or similar is the Dark Angel line, but that is rarely used for reasons.  

 

But there is good news!  Cawl was able to not only add three new organs created by the geneseed, he was also able to restore the lines that had created abnormalities or lost the ability to generate certain organs.  But Guilliman also takes this a step forward.  The chapters that accepted Guilliman's new technology also had to accept his reforms to their recruitment and implementation process.  This is also a great thing.  Now instead of 1000s of years of tradition guiding how Marines are created in each different faction, hopefully the existing Chapters can now maximize their replacement processes as effectively as possible without the loss or degradation of that precious commodity.  

 

Now I do not think the Blood Angels and Space Wolves are going to be as lucky.  I think their flaws will be coming back on them in a big way.  But I feel the rest of the Chapters will be in a great spot when it comes to Geneseed effectiveness and purity.

[Jarl Caldersson]

I will agree that UM+successors are the most pure, but it does not mean they are all free of mutation as Ishagu says.

 

Cawl did not remove all defects of the SW or BA as told on Dark Imperium. He actually refuses to do as RG demands and remove all the flaw, as cawl believes the emperor designed these flaws on purpose.

 

‘What of those gene-lines with more deeply ingrained flaws?’ asked Guilliman. ‘The Blood Angels and the Space Wolves?’ Cawl’s research, and his own reading, had uncovered dangerous faults that the sons of both gene-lines in question had done their best to hide.

‘My standard response remains unchanged. Archmagos Belisarius Cawl understands your reservations. The corrected flaws in the new gene-stocks show no signs of regression to previous unstable states, whether in successor Chapters composed entirely of the new Primaris Space Marine type, or in already established Chapters. Elimination entirely of the more idiosyncratic traits of some gene-lines is, however, not to be recommended. They form part of the Emperor’s original vision, and are, in any case, crucial to their proper function. I will restate Archmagos Belisarius Cawl’s position on this matter. The improved gene-seed of Ninth and Sixth Legion stock is operating within acceptable parameters.

 

 

Edit: I wonder if this means Salamanders are now white as their skin organ malfunction is "cured".

Edited August 7, 2018 by Jarl Caldersson

[Kinstryfe]

It's important to note that Ultramarines geneseed is not pure or mutation free, but rather stable. It is not prone to sudden catastrophic mutation, but will mutate at a rate considered acceptable. It must also be noted that while the Dark Angels geneseed is considered comparatively stable, so too are the Night Lords and Iron Warriors geneseed, the latter of which was actually known to be even easier to implant. A big part of why 60% of loyalist marines are of the XIIIth strain isn't because it is outright superior but because it had a significant numerical advantage at one point and, as all geneseed is descended from prior geneseen, maintains thisa advantage to this day because it is, as mentioned, stable enough that catastrophic genetic catastrophes are rare.

 

Tieing this in to Primaris, were I writing this and moving on to Act II I would introduce the concept that genetic drift can affect Primaris. When making their geneseed sets there is only a need for a few specific new organs. I'd imagine that over time you end up with, for example, 15 of this organ, 15 of that organ, 3 Primaris organs, and those organs shared in common may not be from new Primaris stocks. So what happens when a Primaris is given geneseed which is partially ten thousand years old? Can the new organs cope? How is M41 geneseed different from M31 geneseed? Maybe now we just have even bigger murder marines who want blood. Maybe the effect is totally unpredictable, or maybe they go nuts because their genetics are out of whack. Lots of options for Act 2 to show them backfiring.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

The Salamanders dark skin isn't a flaw, or a malfunction, it's the geneseed working exactly as it should do in a high radiation environment, Space Marines aren't meant to be white in any event. (Look at the Celestial Lions, Dorn Gene-Seed, African tribal routes)

 

I don't know if that was meant to be an edgy comment, but it didn't come across well.

[Ishagu]

In terms of keeping the geneseed pure, the fact that Guilliman is around means at lest the 13th stock will not face any immediate degradation. Should other loyal Primarchs return the same would happen.

 

As for intentional flaws, Dark Imperium refers to the designed attributes of chapters as well as unintended developments. For example, the Red Thirst exists because it's supposed to, but the Black Rage was not part of the design.

[Jarl Caldersson]

The Salamanders dark skin isn't a flaw, or a malfunction, it's the geneseed working exactly as it should do in a high radiation environment, Space Marines aren't meant to be white in any event. (Look at the Celestial Lions, Dorn Gene-Seed, African tribal routes)

 

I don't know if that was meant to be an edgy comment, but it didn't come across well.

It wasn't meant to be edgy it is an honest question. The 13th and 19th organs make up the melanochrome which makes a space Marines skin darker when in direct sunlight. However the RG and sallies have malfunctioning melanochrome, making the former paler and the other darker. However the sallies has malfunctioned causing them to be permanently darkened skin color and red eyes. If cawl really fixed all the geneseed problems then sallies would get lighter when off their home planet and in the darker places of the universe, and their eyes to not be red. The reverse is said for the RG.