Ideas to improve upon Primaris Marines lore

[Subtleknife]

Personally I like the Primaris lore and implementation. I dont really want to see them fall to chaos as then it will just be more of the same of two similar armies fighting each other. Chaos have all sorts of units that make them different, I like that SM now have a subfaction that is totally different too. I dont agree with the grimdark argument either, the imperium is literally split in two, you have got to through the loyalists a bone once in a while.

 

As for where I want to see them go from here. I would firtly like to get more info on how they are organised. Secondly, I would lile GW to confirm whether a normal marine can become a Primaris or not. I am aware GW confirmed it in a stream during their initial release but it has not been confirmed since.

[Jackalwolf]

You guys have sold me. I'm going to try keep an open mind as possible.

 

Does anyone know more about the unnumbered sons (or however was called when they weren't split) and more Intel in traitor geneseed being used?

[chapter master 454]

So Ultramarines are the majority of gene-seed because Horus did a smart thing and decided to launch his heresy when it would be a bad time for loyalists to the Emperor. If I remember right, Gulliman was doing some crusading thing all the way far east in the furthest reaches of the Imperium. This meant that not only did it take a horrifically comically long time for news to reach Gulliman but then for him to have to wrap up his business and get moving back towards trying to fight the traitors. I believe it took so long he came back that the entire heresy was over by the time he got back I believe really, having more of an impact on the events post Siege of Terra. This meant he had a relatively untouched legion in terms of losses so when he did split up all other legions, if I remember my lore right most other legions broke down (if they did) into I believe at most 3 or so while the ultramarines had something like 23? This would easily put the ultramarines at he majority of gene-seed tithes that would be put forward to Terra, pair that with their stability means that their geneseed is not just numerous but long lasting compared to other legions. Kind of why Ultramarines are everywhere in some form (be it the Chapter or chapter founded from).

 

To be honest, Primaris share a lot of things I don't like with the Stormcast guys from AoS (the "SigMarines"). While Primaris are visually more pleasing to me, they do just feel rather sudden and cheapening of currently present forces along with having the door open a crack for other forces to bust out their "Uber Soldier" which then spirals in a vicious cycle. That is slippery slope as hell but that is one of my concerns.

They do just feel lazy.

 

Though I will admit that one aspect of the Primaris I do like is how they are Gulliman's admission of how terrible the Codex Astartes did at what he intended. Almost like GW rule designers!

[Ishagu]

I think that GW forced themselves into a narrative dead end in a lot of ways. The super strict Astartes codex combined with the existing lore of technological decay meant that not much could change without retcons or further convinient STC discoveries.

 

What we have now allows for great scope and unrestricted development. The Imperium can remain an oppressive, cruel and ideologically fascistic regime. The galaxy can remain in a desperate state of affairs. The setting will preserve significant elements of dystopian and grim dark so we don't have to worry about it in that respect.

Also, a few years from now the Primaris will most certainly be far more developed with more detailed lore, new characters, etc etc.

 

I remember the massive backslash when they were announced, but when the dust settled we'll have an opportunity for new and divergent lore that isn't restricted to the past 30 years of status quo.

[Kinstryfe]

The Codex in general is way, way too big of a limiting factor on narratives. When you think of how many times we hear about a company being lost or some tragedy happening, over ten thousand years, with geneseed being so tightly controlled, it's amazing that any original chapters are left at all (which spins off into two completely unrelated theories anyway.) "Horus nearly took over the Imperium with a couple million Astartes. From now on someone can only command....ummmm...a thousand!" Just doesn't make sense, like how the Ultramarines would have split into like 100+ successor Chapters. I do really like that Guilliman seems to dislike how the codex actually changed things. I can really see Primaris being the first step toward them making it make more sense. Not necessarily Legions of 100,000 Astartes, but enough so that a bad case of Tyranids won't eat 60% of a chapter.

[Ishagu]

The technological regression was also having a pretty bad effect on the tabletop. With each Tau model release for example the Marines were looking less and less impressive. Predators are not as imposing as giant battle suits. Now, all sorts of impressive things could be made without trying to abide by narrative restrictions.

[deathspectersgt7]

I call that shody stats for Marines . But Hey guess who is putting together a Primaris Kill Team together.  Would like to see better lore down the road . 

[Ishagu]

Yeah the stats left something to be desired but the narrative also prevented any progress or divergence.

Heck, I remember the Internet crushing hate of Centurions and the outrage because of their retcon into the universe, and they were just a big power armour suit.

Now, we could get some grav bikers armed with plasma spears, gigantic Dreadnoughts, hovering tanks, etc

 

As a hobbyist this is pretty exciting, and much more so than more Rhino variants or PA kits with mildly different wargear.

Edited August 7, 2018 by Ishagu

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I have definitely changed my mind over the past 12 months, from actively disliking them to having 5 in my kill team roster, time and reading Dark Imperium greatly helped this process.

 

I have no problems whatsoever with the creation lore, it makes perfect sense to me that in the chaos of Mars you could hide away a vast project like the Primaris.

 

In terms of the rest of what people here seem to want, you don't seem to really be asking for improved lore, what you really are asking for is more lore. It's unfair to say they have no fluff in comparison to old marines, when we've had decades of old marines lore to read, and only one year of Primaris. Dark Imperium hints at the future difficulties merging the old and new marines will bring, it also refers to new future models, like the Overlord dropship. More is coming.

 

Most importantly to my mind, Guilliman's return has brought the chance for the old marines to work in new ways as the Codex is rewritten.

 

So far, so good as far as I can see.

[UnkyHamHam]

I have a serious love/hate relationship with the Primaris Marines.  I really like the models, and the ideas behind them, and even to a lesser extent the implementation of them (both fluff and business implementation).  I do however think that there is plenty of room to poke holes in the lore.  I am unapologetically a space marine "fanboy."  That doesn't mean I am incapable of looking and thinking critically at some of the issues that arise with the coming of the Primaris. 

 

I think the main issue, is that we just simply have been denied critical information.  To many of us, the denial of info is simply a wait and see approach.  To assume writers and designers have chosen to take a bare minimum fluff release, and then follow with a slow growing of important details that allow the Primaris to take their proper place in the fluff.  This is very frustrating for someone accustomed to the Horus Heresy and complete arch style of story telling present in the rest of GW's writings.  And especially frustrating to someone who is a student of history or tends to ask the why? question a lot.  My theory is that we are being intentionally left in the dark by GW, so they can gauge response and craft the fluff to the needs of the fanbase.  

 

I will preface my Primaris thoughts with my thoughts on the previous controversial additions to marines like Centurions and Flyers.  I really love the Centurions.  I really love the Storm Ravens.  I don't like the AA tanks at all, and to this day, I think are the only marine kits I've not purchased.  I have mixed feelings on Talons/Hawks.  I think Centurions and Ravens clicked into place like a puzzle piece into the laid out Codex doctrine and modus operandi of marine Chapters.  Ravens should be obvious.  They just do what Thunderhawks do, but on a smaller scale, allowing more options and versatility to the bottomless tool box of marine chapters.  It opened up several delivery vehicles to scale with the size of the operation.  From T-hawk to Storm Eagle to Storm Raven.  This fit with nicely with how Astartes operate.  

 

Centurions on the other hand take a little more thought to rationalize.  Models aside, love em or hate em, I think they have a good grounded place in the marine arsenal.  Prior to Guilliman returning and reforming the Codex, we all know Chapters had to adhere to the magic number of 1000 marines.  Most accept this to be the "line" fighting strength, with pilots, officers, and specialists bloating the number up a bit.  Regardless, the number is a sacred law practically.  Going above is heresy for reasons we are all familiar with.  So what do you do when you can only have 1000 men to accomplish increasingly more difficult tasks?  You give them better tools to deal with the tasks.  You only have an extremely small number of sacred suits of TDA, and you obviously restrict them to your best vets.  You need to come up with an interim solution to "up gun" and force enhance your line troops to increase lethality and utility.  You still have to adhere to the dogma of the Codex, so you can't just magically create more veteran companies either.  So it makes sense, in my head, to enhance you assault and heavy weapon specialists (ASM and Devs) with equipment and tools to perform their tasks better and in different environments.  Assault Squads were already doing this anyways with Bikes as an alternate method of going to war.  Centurion Warsuits are just a force enhancer meant to squeeze lethality and efficiency out of every marine, being that 1000 marines will always be your operational bottleneck.  Regardless to if you are a 1st founding Chapter or favored by the Admech or High Lords.  All of whom seem to have deep pockets in resources.  I find the units completely justified, and really appreciate GW's attempt to add a level of actual military thought to adding these units.  I had always hoped FW would create an alternative Centurion model too...  I digress.

 

To my point now.  Primaris don't make a lot of sense.  None of the pre-existing equipment from the previous 10,000 years is made to be functional with the Primaris.  There may be minor PA components or bolt rounds that make the cross over.  Rationally speaking... TDA, Rhinos, Drop Pods, and Land Raiders are gonna be mothballed.  It really makes no sense.  So that's problem number one.  We need to know how fast the Primaris are replacing the old Asartes. We need to know if they ARE actually intended to replace them.  We need to know, what they are going to do with all the left over useless equipment if and when they do.  And we need an actual non speculative justification as to why Primaris replacing old Astartes is worth losing all that utility in that equipment. I'd postulate the rationale, that if you can have pure Primaris Chapters (which you can and do), then they are telling us that the old Astartes are more or less unnecessary to a functional marine Chapter. 

 

Problem two, to me is blatantly obvious, but most people glaze over it.  How is a pure Primaris Chapter more useful than an old version.  With the limited units, weapons, and formations available to the Primaris... how are they even able to perform the variety of tasks the old Astartes are capable of??  It doesn't take a genius to realize that they can't teleport or drop pod, lack fast recon units, are very limited in their ability to deal with armor, and in general have like 10 percent the options available to the classic Chapter selection.  This is the silliest thing about their fluff to me.  Primaris are so different from classic marines, that GW could have altered their visual aesthetic slightly and took away anything sounding marine like, and just called them a new faction/race. It, to me, is simply unbelievable that a pure Primaris Chapter can perform the tasks and fuction as well as a classic old Astartes Chapter.  I'm willing to be proved wrong here.

 

Sorry to rant a bit, but I felt a long form post necessary to convey my thoughts.  The issue isn't as simple as a vocal minority that hates the Primaris, and the silent majority loving them.  I wanted to give my perspective to hopefully help add to the deliberation.  I love that GW is trying, and the models are great.  But, I have to say, I've grown accustomed to a much higher level of quality in writing and design over the years.  And I find the Primaris a little contrived.  They clearly have not put their best people to work on the issue.  All that said, I have high hopes that discussions like this will help bring to light some of the issues people have with the Primaris, and to point, the new direction and style of storytelling.  It needs work and care, and we need patience.  I would not have released the Primaris so half- ed, but I can respect that I am not GW, and that they likely have a plan.  That plan mostly working on me.  I like and buy the models, but am still very disappointed in the current fluff.  Or lack of fluff, more accurately.  Thanks for listening.

Edited August 8, 2018 by UnkyHamHam

[Ishagu]

In the real world Aircraft carriers and battle tanks are mothballed all the time. Also, at the moment lore wise they probably don't function as well because of limited units, so we'll have to wait for additional releases.

My biggest problem with the technology being static is it means the Imperium will be utterly ineffective at waging war. The Tau and Eldar would know exactly what each vehicle does, and the Marines would lose every battle. I see the new lore as a victory for common sense. Do we want the setting to be SciFi or do we want something that is strictly Sci-Fantasy? 40k has element of both, but in recent years and with the HH books it's leaning more towards Sci Fi with fantasy elements.

 

Keep in mind that in the lore, the Repulsor Tanks literally drop down from Orbit, the Primaris have dedicated insertion craft, etc

Edited August 8, 2018 by Ishagu

[UnkyHamHam]

In the real world Aircraft carriers and battle tanks are mothballed all the time. Also, at the moment lore wise they probably don't function as well because of limited units, so we'll have to wait for additional releases.

My biggest problem with the technology being static is it means the Imperium will be utterly ineffective at waging war. The Tau and Eldar would know exactly what each vehicle does, and the Marines would lose every battle. I see the new lore as a victory for common sense. Do we want the setting to be SciFi or do we want something that is strictly Sci-Fantasy?

 

Keep in mind that in the lore, the Repulsor Tanks literally drop down from Orbit, the Primaris have dedicated insertion craft, etc

 

I appreciate your response.  But you are skirting the issues.  Aircraft carriers and tanks are mothballed because better carriers and tanks come along to replace them.  It is rare and history that equipment and methods of warfare that have prevailed for 10k years are proven to be useless to the point that a new innovation is required to completely replace the old way.  Primaris aren't doing this.  They have Power Armor, Bolters, Plasma Guns, and Tanks just the same as old marines.  They are new and shiny and "stronger" individually.  But tactically, strategically, and operationally have the fraction of the warfare capablitity the old marines boasted.  It would be like if you had a Rifle, Grenade Launcher, Bayonette, Jeep, Harrier, Tank, and Flame Thrower.  Then I gave you a better upgraded Rifle and Tank and tossed the rest.  You got better at two things, but completely lost the ability to do several other things.  Make sense?  

 

Advancing the tech does help for the victory of common sense.  But doing so in a vacuum with no thought given to the context around you, is actually a step backward for common sense.

 

And yes Repulsors can perform an Orbital Insertion.  But they will not be as fast as Drop Pods, or carry a dread like the Raven, or bypass defenses like teleportation.  Marines lost all their options to do a handful of tasks slightly better.

Edited August 8, 2018 by UnkyHamHam

[Panzer]

The way the repulsor technology works according to lore dropping them from orbit would be the same as dropping a rhino from orbit tho ... terribly stupid and deadly for anyone inside. :D

[Ishagu]

It happens in Dark Imperium.

 

They descend at high speed and then slow down gradually to a stop a few metres above the ground.

 

Also the Inceptors fall from orbit without the need of Drop Poss.

 

As for the unit variety, this is only a temporary issue as we know. New units will come to flesh out the Tactical options.

Edited August 8, 2018 by Ishagu

[UnkyHamHam]

It happens in Dark Imperium.

 

They descend at high speed and then slow down gradually to a stop a few metres above the ground.

 

Also the Inceptors fall from orbit without the need of Drop Poss.

 

As for the unit variety, this is only a temporary issue as we know. New units will come to flesh out the Tactical options.

 

I agree that new units will come, and that it will serve us to be patient.  But the point remains, that until new units come and questions are answered, it just seems contrived and half baked.  I remain in my opinion that they should have answered a lot of these questions to begin with and there would be far less issues. It would even benefit you directly as a person who refuses to listen to the Primaris negativity.  The haters would have jumped ship long ago having been presented with the proper information to make a decision.  Instead, people are hovering in Limbo waiting to see if GW will make something worthwile out of their story, so that way they can see if they are on board or not.

[Ishagu]

Oh I totally get it, but I know it's only temporary.

 

I'd have simply preferred a full new Primaris codex out of the gate, just to avoid exactly this lol

[UnkyHamHam]

Oh I totally get it, but I know it's only temporary.

 

I'd have simply preferred a full new Primaris codex out of the gate, just to avoid exactly this lol

 

Well as long as we are speaking to preferences, I'll state mine.

 

I like that they are integrated into Codex: SM.  Fluff wise I want there to be a need and reason for both Primaris and old Astartes.  But that requires GW to admit a flaw in the Primaris.  A flaw in their biology, methodology, wargear, organization, or something.  I want a reason to run my old and new marines side by side and them to have place and purpose.  Luckily, since they are currently so limited, I can do this in the game.  But, as I stated, in the fluff it makes no sense.  Rationally speaking, old marines will be Neanderthals to the Primaris' Homo Sapien soon.

[Ishagu]

I don't want a repeat of old themes, however. If these guys are just the same old story, turn traitor, become unstable or something we've seen before - that's not depth or flavour, that's just trite and contrived.

We've had 30 years of that already.

[UnkyHamHam]

I don't want a repeat of old themes, however. If these guys are just the same old story, turn traitor, become unstable or something we've seen before - that's not depth or flavour, that's just trite and contrived.

We've had 30 years of that already.

 

Part of me really wants to quote George Lucas, "it's like poetry, it rhymes." haha

 

But seriously, I agree with you for the most part.  We don't need another Horus Heresy.  I'd prefer something more akin to Lutheran Reform split where we have doctrinal differences, but fundamentally are aligned to the same side.  This could lead to some Badab like wars and skirmishes, but no Heresy level stuff.  All that said tho, we don't even need a schism.  They just need a short coming of some sort to allow a reason for old marines to carry on.  Terminators have this.  They are slower, clunkier, and hard to produce.  Hence, that's why not all marines are outfitted in TDA.  This doesn't make TDA heresy, it just means you have two tools with different uses.  That's all.

 

Edit:  Is this really a hard concept to envision?  A flaw in character or storytelling is not the same as being evil or chaos. 

Edited August 8, 2018 by UnkyHamHam

[Kallas]

Repulsors dropping from orbit is kind of ok; them replacing Drop Pods is not.

Drop Pods are designed the way they are to penetrate AA and interceptor defences. Drop Pods travel at (approximately) 16 kilometres per second [Edit: Apologies, I was misremembering, they travel at approx. 3.3km/s] - I find it hard to believe that the Repulsor can do the same (considering it won't be 'fired' the same, and is even less aerodynamic than a brick; although it does have anti grav, that'd be of less use in the upper/lower atmosphere).

Assuming that the Repulsor still manages a good speed, it's still susceptible to AA and interception. A Drop Pod is essentially immune due to the sheer speed, that is what makes it such a vital insertion method for Astartes; a Repulsor is likely travelling at normal aerial unit kinds of speeds (a rough estimate using a terminal velocity calculator put it at around 60m/s). That's not serving the same purpose, that's acting as target practice.

As for Inceptors dropping from orbit, they are likely slower even than the Repulsor (unless they are using their Jump Packs for propulsion, which they probably are) but are at least far smaller and individually less tempting targets (and may even be small enough to avoid detection).

Point being, the Primaris 'replacements' aren't. They aren't the tools for those jobs. Repulsors can be comparable to Land Raiders (gunboat with transport capacity), but they absolutely don't perform the role of the Drop Pod. As UnkyHamHam said, how are Primaris actually picking up the slack? They cannot (feasibly) perform The role that Astartes are best at: sudden, shocking and devastating insertion into the heart of an enemy to rip out the enemy's most important parts (leadership, communications, etc): Primaris cannot do this in even vaguely the same capacity without Drop Pods.

That's kind of a problem. Primaris are 'better', but they are magically performing better, or equivalently, apparently, when they simply don't have the tools for it.

Even with more Astartes per Chapter, even with supposedly better bodies and equipment, they certainly still aren't numerous enough to act like Guard+10, and they don't have the equipment to act like Astartes+5.

Edited August 8, 2018 by Kallas

[UnkyHamHam]

Amen, Brother Kallas.  I feel like the only voice of reason with a standard for common sense.  Thank you for proving me wrong.

 

Edit:  You basically said everything I wanted to say, but needed to cut short my posts.  These are sort of the things that, I hope, that people arguing about space marine fluff would and should know before making claims.  So as they say, the Devil is in the details.  Thank you for laying out the rationale, for only one of the overarching points I was trying to make.

Edited August 8, 2018 by UnkyHamHam

[Kallas]

Amen, Brother Kallas.  I feel like the only voice of reason with a standard for common sense.  Thank you for proving me wrong.

 

Edit:  You basically said everything I wanted to say, but needed to cut short my posts.  These are sort of the things that, I hope, that people arguing about space marine fluff would and should know before making claims.  So as they say, the Devil is in the details.  Thank you for laying out the rationale, for only one of the overarching points I was trying to make.

 

No problem!

 

For the Drop Pod, it's been such an iconic unit/thing in the arsenal of the Astartes for so long now, and Primaris not using them is a travesty, both as an injustice to them and as an insult to their predecessors!

[Ishagu]

I'd prefer a teleportation strategem.

Drop Pods are iconic in the lore but useless on the tabletop.

Edited August 8, 2018 by Ishagu

[Panzer]

I'd prefer a teleportation strategem.

Drop Pods are iconic in the lore but useless on the tabletop.

 

Eh, that's really no argument imo. There are tons of ways to make Drop Pods work on the tabletop even in 8th edition. Rules can get changed and adjusted but for that to happen the unit needs to exist in the first place.

[UnkyHamHam]

I'd prefer a teleportation strategem.

Drop Pods are iconic in the lore but useless on the tabletop.

 

I suppose evoking Bellasarius Cawl will likely get you a new and improved Cawl pattern Teleportarium Strat.  And I suppose you could say with the Primaris' magical resistance to chaos, that they no longer need protected from the warp by a gellar field, Aegis, Inquisitorial rites/wards, or personal shielding.  

 

I'm being cheeky, but there is a reason that the teleportarium is restricted to Custodes, Grey Knights, and Inquisition.  TDA stands out as the only thing capable of surviving a teleportation.  And the fluff on that goes way back.