Ideas to improve upon Primaris Marines lore

[Kallas]

I would also throw out the crap lore about everyone accepting them. There should be canon Chapters who refused them, or even murdered them on sight.

Yeah, but remember, all of the other Legions totally accepted Guilliman's Codex at it's inception, right? Like the Space Wolves, or Imperial Fists!

 

Seriously though, you're totally right. Not every Chapter would be on board with the situation. Sure, Guilliman's presence/word will have a lot of weight, but it's not necessarily going to convince every Chapter to play along, considering that they'll all have their own millennia-spanning traditions and beliefs, some of which will involve the 'true' process of creating Marines (ie, the way the Emperor made them, not some upstart Mechanicum Cogboy!)

 

I honestly think that that's one part of the Dark Imperium/8th lore that's pretty lame: 94% (or 97%) of all Chapters welcome Primaris in with open arms. That's a huge proportion (only about 30-60, depending on the actual percentage, don't accept them) and smacks of marketing driving the lore (ie, we want to sell these as much as possible, so everyone/the vast majority has to like them).

 

Simply, Cawl's meddlings are heretical, to one degree or another. It's easy, as an outside-looking-in perspective to say so, but also from an in-universe POV how can certain elements verify that Cawl did indeed work on the Astartes way back 10,000 years ago? He messed with the Emperor's Space Marines, that's a pretty huge thing to say to someone, "Our boss made us, and we're better in every way than you guys are!"

 

Someone rocks up to your homeworld and says, "Hey, our boss made these, they're totally great!" Do you just trust their word? It's not like Chaos tries to corrupt people in whatever ways they can, these could easily be some kind of daemon-infused Marines, or some other kind of heretical shenanigans.

 

Even Guilliman showing up in person wouldn't necessarily sway some of them. The Space Wolves have dug in their heels when facing annihilation several times (eg, First War for Armageddon vs the Grey Knights/Inquisition afterwards), and I'm not sure Guilliman sanctioning the destruction of one of the First Founding Chapters would go down well with anyone, let alone the other First Founding/their descendants.

 

It's well and good that Custodes can rock up to Random Chapter #442 (who're probably Guilliman's anyway) and tell them to shut up and take it, but the First Founding Chapters really wouldn't have to take them if they didn't want to. And that would be way more interesting (but of course limiting for selling models, so would never happen).

[Jarl Caldersson]

I think the whole cawl thing could have been handled better. Something like the Emperor had plans to upgrade the Marines with the 3 Primaris organs. However in his haste to kick off the crusade was unable to. Then Horus's betrayal happened. So Cawl spent x years trying to figure how to utilize the Emperor's plans. Then started to en masse an army. So he couldn't help out with several key events like the beast as he didn't have an army yet. When he did finish the imperium had slide so far that he feared being called a heretic and was waiting for any Primarch to come back and listen to reason.

[Bjorn Firewalker]

Excellent idea, Jarl Caldersson.

 

Another possible fix is that DORN was the one who ordered Cawl to continue the Emperor's plan for what would become Primaris Marines, and due to the Imperial Fists Primarch's conflict with Guilliman over the Codex, the Ultramarines Primarch wasn't trusted with knowledge of Cawl's work until Dorn died- Cawl personally contacted him, asking for further orders- and Guilliman's planning was so meticulous and time-consuming, the Ultramarines Primarch failed to incorporate the Primaris Project into his future plans before Fulgrim slit his throat.

Edited August 11, 2018 by Bjorn Firewalker

[Sea-People]

One way to do it would be to liken Primaris to Thunder Warriors in some way. Maybe it could be that Cawl/Emps/Whoever took some cues from the Thunder Warriors in creating the Primaris? This would also leave room for a potential flaw. The Thunder Warriors lived short lives and were borderline insane, maybe the Primaris will have a similar problem down the line? Thoughts?

[Boldthreat]

I like that direction Bjorn, that would be cool.  I think Dorn outlasted Guilliman initially however, as he was around for the 3rd Founding and I do not believe Guilliman was.  But lets flip that around.  What if Guilliman was pushing this whole concept through without the consent of the Emperor.  What if Dorn shut it down.  Guilliman's intentions were/are honest.  But a hard-minded Dorn probably wouldn't even have considered the idea.  After Guilliman is put in stasis, command of the Imperium goes to Dorn.  He finds out and shuts the heretical technology down.  What if the Cawl/Mechanicus/High Lords then set up his demise.  What if the attack on the sword of sacriledge was a trap?  Chaos gets to remove a loyal pawn... the Imperium gets to remove an inhibitor to their plans.  

 

What if that is why Dorn fakes his death?  What if he was told to die or else the fists have a genetic accident?  What if he returns?  What do the Fists do then... nah they have bought the Primaris Koolaid... what if he has to go to the Black Templars... they are a little more zealous in their faith... hashtag Black Templar Primaris Purge... Hashtag Black Templar Ultramar Crusade?

 

Not that I want this to happen mind you or that I think it will.  But holy hell would that be a Black Library series worth reading about!  Thats what I love about this new setting.  The door is open for suprises!  Calgar... Dante... Grimnar... Guilliman... they are all on the table.  No one is safe... and unlike the Horus Heresy, we don't know whats going to happen!

[Ishagu]

I don't necessarily want to see "flaws" and problems to any great extent. We've had that for a long time already. Prior to the Horus Heresy the legions were very individually defined without any mutations, flaws or overblown quirks, and the setting is appreciated by many. I'd prefer expanded rules for each chapter.

 

As for the assumption that Cawl's meddling is heretical - he's personally worked with the Emperor, and he might have a direct mandate for his work.

 

I don't think the Wolves would turn Primaris away. They aren't savages, and Grimnar is a wise leader - he'll accept the help, especially at a time like the current, following the near destruction of Fenris. I don't expect they'll follow much of Guilliman's instructions, or be as respectful as others have been - then again there is no great animosities between the wolves and the Ultras, so we'll see how it pans out.

Edited August 11, 2018 by Ishagu

[Jarl Caldersson]

Flaws are what are exploited in 40k by chaos. Small flaws that are often unnoticed that slowly crack as chaos exploits it. I do hope Primaris have flaws as reading about perfect little soldiers running around isn't interesting. Character flaw, personality flaw, cultural flaws make more interesting stories. I know you don't want chaos primaris, but chaos is in everything so to be 100% chaos immune is boring. Plus we have already seen in Dark Imperium that they are not immune.

 

Problem is that he might have worked with the emperor, but this isn't the Emperor's imperium. It is twisted and does not represent him. It represent something else. So if the imperial cult believes he is a heretic they will make it look like he is a heretic. Noone is safe in this imperium.

 

I doubt the wolves will deny them, but they will test them. They have never done the test of morkai, they are unblooded, and not trained by the SWs. If the Primaris gonin to the SWs acting like UMs or IFs there will be severe cultural clash. Or if the begin sprouting Wulfen features they may be considered too unstable. So the SWs will watch them closely until they prove themselves able sons of Russ.

[Ishagu]

But as I mentioned earlier, I don't particularly want to see chaos corruption on any scale beyond the individual marine here and there. I'd much rather see an expanded chaos range with unique units that is divergent from the loyalists. I don't want to see Cheesy, Spiky Primaris.

 

I'm not saying they should h

be immune to chaos corruption, I simply don't want to see the same old storyline repeated again and again. The Death Guard range is a complete, unique army. In the future we might get Emperor's children with their own upgraded Marines - Fabius Bike's new men, who have different attributes and traits. If this turns into Heresy 2.0 I'll be bored and disappointed.

Edited August 12, 2018 by Ishagu

[Azekai]

But as I mentioned earlier, I don't particularly want to see chaos corruption on any scale beyond the individual marine here and there.

 

Except entire chapters have gone rogue in the past, and there is nothing to suggest that Cawl's new organs grant any spiritual protection from the influence of Chaos.  

 

If Primarchs can fall, so can any number of Primaris marines.

 

Stylistically you may not like it, but there is nothing in the background material to suggest that corruption is impossible or even far-fetched. 

[Ishagu]

Even if chapters fall, we don't necessarily need to see a model line for them. Have it in the lore that so and so fell to chaos, but were then exterminated in a bombardment or something like that. There is so much potential for unique chaos units that putting Spikes on Primaris is the most boring course to take by some margin. Imagine how the old legions could have diverged after 10k years of exposure to the warp - we could have robotic Iron Warriors who have merged with mechanical constructs, we could have entire armies of Gal Vorbak or even more corrupted Word Bearers, and Emperor's Children who have reached the pinnacle of perfection beyond what even Cawl thought possible. Edited August 12, 2018 by Ishagu

[Endova]

Quoting this because you bring up some really good points, Brother Kallas.

 

 

I would also throw out the crap lore about everyone accepting them. There should be canon Chapters who refused them, or even murdered them on sight.

Yeah, but remember, all of the other Legions totally accepted Guilliman's Codex at it's inception, right? Like the Space Wolves, or Imperial Fists!

Seriously though, you're totally right. Not every Chapter would be on board with the situation. Sure, Guilliman's presence/word will have a lot of weight, but it's not necessarily going to convince every Chapter to play along, considering that they'll all have their own millennia-spanning traditions and beliefs, some of which will involve the 'true' process of creating Marines (ie, the way the Emperor made them, not some upstart Mechanicum Cogboy!)

I honestly think that that's one part of the Dark Imperium/8th lore that's pretty lame: 94% (or 97%) of all Chapters welcome Primaris in with open arms. That's a huge proportion (only about 30-60, depending on the actual percentage, don't accept them) and smacks of marketing driving the lore (ie, we want to sell these as much as possible, so everyone/the vast majority has to like them).

 

 

Lets not mince words. It's very clear that marketing is driving the whole enterprise. The lore and the codices' rules have all been warped to make Primaries Marines the shiniest bestest most heroic marines evah in the eyes of children. Allow my to follow with some examples.

 

I bought the Deathwatch codex today. I had already known Primaris had been shoehorned in, but I was at least curious to see what the DW thought of them. I figured it would be relevant to this crusade of disgust I've been on here and on Dakka and Reddit. After all, how could they even fit into DW doctrine? The Deathwatch are all about highly individualized demi-heroes with unique loadouts, dynamic tactics and decades if not centuries of experiencing fighting xenos. There's no way untested, inflexible, mono-weapon squads would fit in, right? (Full disclosure: I have something resembling respect for the writers including the Fortis team, which at least tries to address this.)

 

Well, the fluff timeline answers this question. Most watch-fortresses were, obviously, ecstatic to receive Guilliman's reinforcements under the Ultimus Decree. There's even an excerpt especially for the nay-sayers, about one Watch Captain Holgjar Ironfang. Ironfang essentially, and probably correctly, uses his new Primars Fortis teams as glorified meat shields. Except he dared to doubt the supreme and unquestionable awesomeness of Primaris marines, so they come and save his bacon during a mission, so he demotes himself to battle brother and promoting the Primaris sergeant to watch captain instead.

 

If that isn't already cringe enough, the fluff entry for the regular Deathwatch Killteam (in the book called "Veterans") just has to have a paragraph about Primaris Marines jammed in. There simply can't be one bit of fluff that doesn't involve them, you see. The section states that:

 

 

With the arrival of the Primaris Space Marines, the Veteran's wealth of experience found another use. To them fell the crucial duty of studying the strengths of these new comrades and reporting back to their Watch Masters with strategic observations to optimize their deployment.

 

Emphasis mine. So the role of veterans is not to, you know, teach the new guys from their wealth of experience. No. It's to study how awesome and and amazing and strong the rookies are so the DW can best go about changing what they've been doing for EIGHT THOUSAND YEARS to accommodate greenhorn ing Primaris Marines.

 

As for the rules in the codex, well, Blackstars simply can not fit Primaris Marines. Never mind they can fit some amount of Terminators or Jump Pack infantry. Primaris are apparently either too good to ride in a Blackstar or just afraid of heights. I've said this before and I'll say it again: Anyone who thinks these transport rules are about anything other than selling the most Repulsors possible is an abject fool. I'm not even going to get in to how ridiculous it is that Primaris can't intermingle with normal Veteran squads at all, or that Primaris apothecaries are fine but Astartes apothecaries are missing.

[Panzer]

Blood Angels without the black rage are just red Ultramarines and at that point just roll them into the next Space Marine codex. That's not happening.

 

That's wrong on so many levels and just shows a clear lack of understanding what Blood Angels are. 

[Wargamer]

 

That's wrong on so many levels and just shows a clear lack of understanding what Blood Angels are. 

 

But that is an accurate description of what Primaris Blood Angels appear to be.

 

Seriously, let's just try looking at this from the point of view of an outsider who doesn't read through the novels, or maybe even the Codex. How do Blood Angels appear compared to Ultramarines?

 

True Marines:

• Blood Angels have really ornate armour on their characters compared to Ultramarines.
• Blood Angels have bad-ass golden jump infantry in ornate armour, which Ultramarines don't.
• Blood Angels have a black-clad elite unit called Death Company, who are apparently absolutely insane murder-hobos. Ultramarines don't have them.
• Blood Angels have a unique Librarian Dreadnought.
• Blood Angels have a unique Dreadnought with two close combat weapons.
• Blood Angels have a unique Predator variant.

Primaris:

• Blood Angels have a fancier power sword you can give to their Lieutenant.

 

Wow... yeah, those Primaris Blood Angels really do look and feel distinct from Ultramarines...

Edited August 12, 2018 by Wargamer

[Panzer]

 

 

That's wrong on so many levels and just shows a clear lack of understanding what Blood Angels are. 

 

But that is an accurate description of what Primaris Blood Angels appear to be.

 

Seriously, let's just try looking at this from the point of view of an outsider who doesn't read through the novels, or maybe even the Codex. How do Blood Angels appear compared to Ultramarines?

 

True Marines:

• Blood Angels have really ornate armour on their characters compared to Ultramarines.
• Blood Angels have bad-ass golden jump infantry in ornate armour, which Ultramarines don't.
• Blood Angels have a black-clad elite unit called Death Company, who are apparently absolutely insane murder-hobos. Ultramarines don't have them.
• Blood Angels have a unique Librarian Dreadnought.
• Blood Angels have a unique Dreadnought with two close combat weapons.
• Blood Angels have a unique Predator variant.

Primaris:

• Blood Angels have a fancier power sword you can give to their Lieutenant.

 

Wow... yeah, those Primaris Blood Angels really do look and feel distinct from Ultramarines...

 

 

Eh that's just models/units and the thing GW has going with not mentioning units in the fluff they don't have models for (huge :cuss Primaris flyer excluded but that's probably because the chance for some 3rd party to sell such a model any time soon is extremely low).

[Wargamer]

Eh, it's just the first thing most people will see that would potentially set the Blood Angels apart as a distinct faction. Not like that matters at all...

 

I also love how you try and defend your point by bringing up a flyer referenced in lore that ALL Primaris would have access to, not just the Blood Angels. I don't think you actually understand that not everyone reads extensively into the lore enough to instinctively know why a given Chapter isn't just a repainted Ultramarine.

Edited August 12, 2018 by Wargamer

[Jarl Caldersson]

 

That's wrong on so many levels and just shows a clear lack of understanding what Blood Angels are. :huh:

 

But that is an accurate description of what Primaris Blood Angels appear to be.

 

Seriously, let's just try looking at this from the point of view of an outsider who doesn't read through the novels, or maybe even the Codex. How do Blood Angels appear compared to Ultramarines?True Marines:

• Blood Angels have really ornate armour on their characters compared to Ultramarines.
• Blood Angels have bad-ass golden jump infantry in ornate armour, which Ultramarines don't.
• Blood Angels have a black-clad elite unit called Death Company, who are apparently absolutely insane murder-hobos. Ultramarines don't have them.
• Blood Angels have a unique Librarian Dreadnought.
• Blood Angels have a unique Dreadnought with two close combat weapons.
• Blood Angels have a unique Predator variant.

Primaris:

• Blood Angels have a fancier power sword you can give to their Lieutenant.

 

Wow... yeah, those Primaris Blood Angels really do look and feel distinct from Ultramarines...

Unfortunately that is something ALL Space Marine Primaris suffer from, especially the codex compliant ones. I am thinking they are pushing out Primaris and testing the waters. Once more are introduced and fill most of the positions out, the chapter specific stuff will come.

 

If I was GW exec I would be taking a few things to heart based on public outcry. Melee Primaris, cheap Primaris transports, jump packs, black Templar codex, and chapter specific Primaris. These items are constantly in demand on social media that seem doable. There is of course plastic thunderhawk cries.

 

However in the lore it is obvious the attitude of the Primaris is pretty vast and different... but even in the lore the armor all seems to be "UM in x color". We need more books that focus in on other chapter other than UMs. A BA taking time to decorate his armor for example.

[Servant of Dante]

There’s really no need to argue whether blood angels primaris without the black rage are or aren’t red Ultramarines. Obviously the BA fluff is very different in terms of traditions and combat doctrine from the UM. Obviously on a surface level there are rather few differences between BA and UM primaris other than color. It all comes down to a difference of priorities, not whether or not someone understands the chapter or not.

 

As for Chaos primaris, I don’t care either way. A flaw doesn’t mean “there’s a bunch of chaos ones running around” necessarily, in fact if that’s all the change that was added it really wouldn’t fix my issue with them. I just want the fluff to give some justification for why you’d use primaris to supplement old marines (or vice versa) rather than the primaris just being “better Marines”

Edited August 12, 2018 by Servant of Dante

[Ishagu]

You can't expect great divergence until the model line grows. Even something as simple as a chapter tactic can impact an army massively if there are units to fully utilise it.

 

Complaining about Primaris Blood Angels not being unique enough because the model line hasn't been expanded yet is a bit silly. There was a point in time when the Blood Angels classic Marines were just guys with red armour on the tabletop.

Edited August 12, 2018 by Ishagu

[Wargamer]

There’s really no need to argue whether blood angels primaris without the black rage are or aren’t red Ultramarines. Obviously the BA fluff is very different in terms of traditions and combat doctrine from the UM. Obviously on a surface level there are rather few differences between BA and UM primaris other than color. It all comes down to a difference of priorities, not whether or not someone understands the chapter or not.

No, I really think you're not giving enough credit to this.

 

Let's imagine we take a 3rd Edition approach to this. For those who weren't around then, the Codex was a very bare bones affair - lore for units and characters was essentially a single Tweet's worth of information. So imagine you were working in those confines; you had a picture of the unit and about 280 characters max to describe who they are and what they do. Could you create a feel for each Chapter that made them distinct in those confines? I think you could.

 

Let's go through the list again:

 

Black Templars:

Crusader Squads are pretty much our only port of call here, but that alone emphasises they do not adhere to traditional Chapter structure.

 

Blood Angels:

We've got a bunch of combat units, at least one of which is built entirely around their unique flaws. If you also have the unique BA themed Tac, Dev and Assault squads you can absolutely get across the Blood Angels being a Chapter all about master crafted gear, furious assaults and some pretty severe personal issues.

 

Dark Angels:

Do I even need to do this? It's practically three armies in one! Again, if you can count the themed generic boxes you can absolutely get across their secretive nature, intractability, love of plasma and weird fetish for wearing women's clothing.

 

Space Wolves:

Again, the unique units in this lineup speaks volumes about who and what the Space Wolves are, but it's what's missing that really gets the Chapter across - none of the generic units are present here. Yes, there are similar units - Long Fangs look a lot like Devastators - but the fact they are "Long Fangs" as opposed to "Space Wolf Devastator Squad" tells us something about the Chapter in question.

 

If you need a three part miniseries of novels to explain why the Blood Angels or Dark Angels or Space Wolves are different to Ultramarines, that means someone has failed at the first hurdle... and if you're relying on Primaris, that problem is stood front and centre. They are all Ultramarines. No effort of any kind has been made to convince people otherwise.

 

 

 

You can't expect great divergence until the model line grows. Even something as simple as a chapter tactic can impact an army massively if there are units to fully utilise it.

 

Complaining about Primaris Blood Angels not being unique enough because the model line hasn't been expanded yet is a bit silly. There was a point in time when the Blood Angels classic Marines were just guys with red armour on the tabletop.

I feel the fact you have to go back to Rogue Trader for that claim to be valid undermines your argument. I can pull out a White Dwarf from when Space Marine (1st edition Epic) came out and find that the Blood Angels are distinct from Ultramarines just by the unit restrictions given to their respective Chapters - Blood Angels got a lot more assault units; Dark Angels had "Wings" you had to fill out, etc.

 

 

 

Edited August 12, 2018 by Wargamer

[Ishagu]

Death company, Sanguinary Guard, Libby Dreads appeared much later. Edited August 12, 2018 by Ishagu

[Wargamer]

Irrelevant. As I said, GW made Ultramarines, Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Space Wolves distinct from one another just through army composition, with no unique units at all. Besides which, 40k has been around for decades at this point - failure to make Primaris anything other than Ultramarines is inexcusable.

[Sete]

One cannot avoid Primaris now. But I would like to see them being distinct.

Especially now.

100 years have passed.

New Primaris have been made that would follow the traditions and tactics of the chapter.

 

But it seems GW is going on a different direction here and will try to homogenise the Primaris either in beliefs and tactics.

[Boldthreat]

 

Blood Angels without the black rage are just red Ultramarines and at that point just roll them into the next Space Marine codex. That's not happening.

 

That's wrong on so many levels and just shows a clear lack of understanding what Blood Angels are. 

 

 

I really do not believe so.  

 

What are Blood Angels?  Without the tragic curse that is the Black Rage what are they?  Space Marines.  OK Maybe Space Marines that are a bit better in assault... as opposed to what?  The Chapter that is a little more survivable?  The Chapter that is a little more stealthy?  The Chapter that ignores cover?  The other, other Chapter that used to focus on assault?  

 

I do not care if they have a unique honor guard unit.  The Marines Errant have Dark Void Elite.  The Black Templars have Crusader Squads and Emperor's Champions.  The Ultramarines have Tyrannic War Veterans... and more Honor Guard than any other Chapter.  The Dark Angels have the Deathwing and the Ravenwing.  The Space Wolves have... well they have the entire Space Wolves.  The Iron Hands used to let Terminators lead tacticals.  And I don't care if they have beautiful craftmenship... the Salamanders do too... so do the Iron Hands if you appreciate what they are about.  So they paint their helmets different colors based on role.  The Executioners do the same thing with shoulder pads.  That's not unique.

 

My point is that if you strip the unique benifits these units have on the table top and focus on a lore perspective... what do we have?  We have a Space Marine Chapter that traces its bloodline to 1 of the 20 Primarchs created by the Emperor 10,000 years ago.  Their genetic quirk makes them a little more terrifying than the 1000 other Chapters out there... but even that last part is subjective... Executioners, Carcharadons, Black Templars... the list goes on.  

 

No but add the flaw back in.  A Genetic curse that stems from the death of their Gene-Father.  A curse so dark and evil that it is robbing them of all their humanity and beauty.  A curse that is getting worse each generation and is succeeding in wiping them out as a group.  Its so bad that they have to hide it... because if the Imperium found out they might just have to be destroyed.  That, more than any other thing is what makes the Blood Angels... Blood Angels to me.

 

Its the same with the Dark Angels.  I do not care about their specialist formations.  Cool... Bone colored Terminators.  Cool... black colored Bikers.  I get the fluff.  I get the lore behind these organizations.  But you remove the Hunt for the Fallen, that Dark aspect of their past that puts into question everything they are doing and/or have done... then what do you have?  You have a Space Marine chapter that claims to have the best Terminators in the Imperium.  So what.

 

I hope what I am saying gets across here.  We could spend hours and hours talking about the differences here and there that make our chapters different.  These are all great.  But Seth's whole point when Primaris were impressed apon him was that without that internal struggle that makes the Blood Angels, Blood Angels... what were these Primaris marines with the blood of Sanguinius?  They were just Red Ultramarines.  And he is not wrong!  They weren't trained on Baal by the Chapter with its 10,000 years of history.  They were trained on Mars.  How could they have unique traditions and units at this point?  They wouldn't!  I stand by my Red Ultramarines comment.

 

But again, I keep coming back to a main point.  This was 200 years ago.  We already have hints the Black Rage is not gone.  The Primaris now have had the time to integrate into the Blood Angels and their traditions.  So bring on the Primaris Death Company.  Bring on the unique Primaris Blood Angel Sanguinary Priests.  Bring on the Librarian Redemptors.  Bring on the Unique Blood Angels Repulsors.  But make no mistake about the opinion I am presenting... the Blood Angels, without the Black Rage, are just Red Ultramarines.  Just Red Imperial Fists.  Just Red Black Templars.  Just Red Space Marines.  

[Panzer]

 

 

Blood Angels without the black rage are just red Ultramarines and at that point just roll them into the next Space Marine codex. That's not happening.

 

That's wrong on so many levels and just shows a clear lack of understanding what Blood Angels are. 

 

 

I really do not believe so.  

 

What are Blood Angels?  Without the tragic curse that is the Black Rage what are they?  Space Marines.  OK Maybe Space Marines that are a bit better in assault... as opposed to what?  The Chapter that is a little more survivable?  The Chapter that is a little more stealthy?  The Chapter that ignores cover?  The other, other Chapter that used to focus on assault?  

 

I do not care if they have a unique honor guard unit.  The Marines Errant have Dark Void Elite.  The Black Templars have Crusader Squads and Emperor's Champions.  The Ultramarines have Tyrannic War Veterans... and more Honor Guard than any other Chapter.  The Dark Angels have the Deathwing and the Ravenwing.  The Space Wolves have... well they have the entire Space Wolves.  The Iron Hands used to let Terminators lead tacticals.  And I don't care if they have beautiful craftmenship... the Salamanders do too... so do the Iron Hands if you appreciate what they are about.  So they paint their helmets different colors based on role.  The Executioners do the same thing with shoulder pads.  That's not unique.

 

My point is that if you strip the unique benifits these units have on the table top and focus on a lore perspective... what do we have?  We have a Space Marine Chapter that traces its bloodline to 1 of the 20 Primarchs created by the Emperor 10,000 years ago.  Their genetic quirk makes them a little more terrifying than the 1000 other Chapters out there... but even that last part is subjective... Executioners, Carcharadons, Black Templars... the list goes on.  

 

No but add the flaw back in.  A Genetic curse that stems from the death of their Gene-Father.  A curse so dark and evil that it is robbing them of all their humanity and beauty.  A curse that is getting worse each generation and is succeeding in wiping them out as a group.  Its so bad that they have to hide it... because if the Imperium found out they might just have to be destroyed.  That, more than any other thing is what makes the Blood Angels... Blood Angels to me.

 

Its the same with the Dark Angels.  I do not care about their specialist formations.  Cool... Bone colored Terminators.  Cool... black colored Bikers.  I get the fluff.  I get the lore behind these organizations.  But you remove the Hunt for the Fallen, that Dark aspect of their past that puts into question everything they are doing and/or have done... then what do you have?  You have a Space Marine chapter that claims to have the best Terminators in the Imperium.  So what.

 

I hope what I am saying gets across here.  We could spend hours and hours talking about the differences here and there that make our chapters different.  These are all great.  But Seth's whole point when Primaris were impressed apon him was that without that internal struggle that makes the Blood Angels, Blood Angels... what were these Primaris marines with the blood of Sanguinius?  They were just Red Ultramarines.  And he is not wrong!  They weren't trained on Baal by the Chapter with its 10,000 years of history.  They were trained on Mars.  How could they have unique traditions and units at this point?  They wouldn't!  I stand by my Red Ultramarines comment.

 

But again, I keep coming back to a main point.  This was 200 years ago.  We already have hints the Black Rage is not gone.  The Primaris now have had the time to integrate into the Blood Angels and their traditions.  So bring on the Primaris Death Company.  Bring on the unique Primaris Blood Angel Sanguinary Priests.  Bring on the Librarian Redemptors.  Bring on the Unique Blood Angels Repulsors.  But make no mistake about the opinion I am presenting... the Blood Angels, without the Black Rage, are just Red Ultramarines.  Just Red Imperial Fists.  Just Red Black Templars.  Just Red Space Marines.  

 

 

The thing is that the Red Thirst is a MUCH bigger influence to Blood Angels than the Black Rage. The Black Rage is a really binary thing. It's not there for the most part of a Blood Angels life and IF it kicks in then their life is pretty much over shortly after. The Red Thirst on the other hand influences every thought and every act 24/7 and many of the rituals, customs and positions in a Blood Angels chapter are formed around or because of the Red Thirst existing (yes, them being artists and stuff as well). And as we know the Red Thirst is something the Primaris started to suffer from as well.

 

Additionally what makes Blood Angels is their mindset of how to handle things and their history. Oh also that they look way more like their Primarch than other chapter tend to. However these things are really less obvious things until you really read into the Blood Angel lore so lets just don't count those.

 

 

Eh, it's just the first thing most people will see that would potentially set the Blood Angels apart as a distinct faction. Not like that matters at all...

 

I also love how you try and defend your point by bringing up a flyer referenced in lore that ALL Primaris would have access to, not just the Blood Angels. I don't think you actually understand that not everyone reads extensively into the lore enough to instinctively know why a given Chapter isn't just a repainted Ultramarine.

 

You're really missing the point there.

Also I didn't mention the flyer to defend anything. I just thought it's fair to mention at all. 

 

Anyway, this thread is not about what makes a Blood Angel a Blood Angel so I won't go any further with this discussion. This already went enough offtopic.

[Wargamer]

It's merely Blood Angels emphasising why Primaris completely suck.

 

Dark Angels have a similar issue. One of the things that makes Dark Angels and their successor Chapters interesting is the Fallen. Thing is, no Primaris knows the Fallen exist, so they can't take part in that coolness. No Primaris fears turning Wulfen either. They lack the burdens of True Marines. They are... Boring. They're a surface level impression of what Marines are, with absolutely no depth whatsoever.