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Ideas to improve upon Primaris Marines lore


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#201
Ishagu

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The black rage does not define the Blood Angels. It's not what made them unique, but a grim dark topping on their existing characteristics. The wulfen don't define the Space Wolves either.

Also, this topic isn't for complaining about what you don't like, but about potential developments and improvements to new lore that as of right now is lacking details.

Edited by Ishagu, 12 August 2018 - 04:42 PM.

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#202
Wargamer

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I would have thought a fix was implied by the very issues raised - that Primaris need flaws, either their own or the flaws of their parent Chapter, to define them as something other than generic trash.

"Taekar!" - Supernovan motto, battle cry, insult and general-purpose word.

 

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#203
Ishagu

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You think they need flaws. I think it's better if this new chapter doesn't just repeat the same lore ideas all over again. If all you want is the old stuff you can ignore Primaris entirely.

We have an opportunity for new things to define chapters.

Edited by Ishagu, 12 August 2018 - 04:54 PM.

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#204
Brother Lunkhead

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The black rage does not define the Blood Angels. It's not what made them unique, but a grim dark topping on their existing characteristics. The wulfen don't define the Space Wolves either.

Also, this topic isn't for complaining about what you don't like, but about potential developments and improvements to new lore that as of right now is lacking details.

 Quite rightyes.gif …… I've been as guilty as anyone in  contributing to the negativism in this post so I apologize for that.

 

Moving on..... I'd like to see more information on the integration of Primaris in existing chapters. Do Primaris start off in the Scout company, or do they have a unique line of training? If they do start off as scouts, do they get upgraded from normal marines (an amusing concept, Normal Marinesunsure.png) and get the Primaris upgrade along with the black carapace upon being elevated from the scout ranks? 

 

 I'd also like to see some chain sword wielding, jump pack wearing Assault Primaris, as well as Primaris with missile launchers, lascannons, etc. I'm sure all of this will come from GW in time, but I'm an impatient fellow and want it NOWbiggrin.png



#205
sfPanzer

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It's merely Blood Angels emphasising why Primaris completely suck.

Dark Angels have a similar issue. One of the things that makes Dark Angels and their successor Chapters interesting is the Fallen. Thing is, no Primaris knows the Fallen exist, so they can't take part in that coolness. No Primaris fears turning Wulfen either. They lack the burdens of True Marines. They are... Boring. They're a surface level impression of what Marines are, with absolutely no depth whatsoever.

 

It only emphasizes that the Primaris model line is at it's absolute beginning and is not nearly finished or fleshed out yet. Nothing else. It has literally nothing to do with Primaris lore.

 

 

I would have thought a fix was implied by the very issues raised - that Primaris need flaws, either their own or the flaws of their parent Chapter, to define them as something other than generic trash.

 

If you would've read properly then you would've noticed that Primaris aren't completely void of flaws tho. They do suffer from the Red Thirst (to keep with the Blood Angels example) which is a much bigger issue than the Black Rage.


Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

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#206
sfPanzer

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The black rage does not define the Blood Angels. It's not what made them unique, but a grim dark topping on their existing characteristics. The wulfen don't define the Space Wolves either.

Also, this topic isn't for complaining about what you don't like, but about potential developments and improvements to new lore that as of right now is lacking details.

 Quite rightyes.gif …… I've been as guilty as anyone in  contributing to the negativism in this post so I apologize for that.

 

Moving on..... I'd like to see more information on the integration of Primaris in existing chapters. Do Primaris start off in the Scout company, or do they have a unique line of training? If they do start off as scouts, do they get upgraded from normal marines (an amusing concept, Normal Marinesunsure.png) and get the Primaris upgrade along with the black carapace upon being elevated from the scout ranks? 

 

 I'd also like to see some chain sword wielding, jump pack wearing Assault Primaris, as well as Primaris with missile launchers, lascannons, etc. I'm sure all of this will come from GW in time, but I'm an impatient fellow and want it NOWbiggrin.png

 

 

Currently it's not possible to "upgrade" regular Marines to Primaris. The procedure is just that they added a three more organs inbetween the already existing ones while "growing". So any Primaris Scout would already have all the organs eventually (and thus grow taller than non-Primaris Scouts) and would be only missing the black carapace to properly operate Power Armour.


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Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

gallery_62972_10568_7658.jpgbFk9acX.pnggallery_62972_14467_40478.pngETL_VI_Banner_02_Oathbraker_.jpg


#207
Boldthreat

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I respectfully disagree SFPanzer.  But I will definitely honor your decision to bring this topic back to its main discussion.  Cheers and thank you for the spirited debate.  I felt our discussion was directly related to the topic.  Apologies all on the derailment and my part in it.

 

 

You think they need flaws. I think it's better if this new chapter doesn't just repeat the same lore ideas all over again. If all you want is the old stuff you can ignore Primaris entirely.

We have an opportunity for new things to define chapters.

 

You make a valid point here Ishagu.  Its not that I want Primaris Blood Angels honor guard.  Or Primaris Death Company.  I am open for new and exciting interpretations to those original concepts.  But I have no urge to see the Blood Angels Primaris be just like everyone else's Primaris.  I do not believe "flaws" are needed to make the Primaris acceptable.  Heck you know, I think they are great right now.  But I do believe the unique Chapter cults needs to be expressed in the Primaris.  But I think this needs to happen for all the major Chapters.

 

They just need pushed further.  We are past the point of generic Primaris.  That happened.  But I want to see how Primaris look integrated into the Inner Circle of the Dark Angels.  I want to see what a Primaris marine looks like succumbing to the black rage.  I want to see Space Wolf Primaris be afflicted by the mark of the wulfen.  I do not want the Primaris to be a vehicle of reason on why those unique things dont happen anymore (I dont think they are or will be).  Mainly because I do see the Primaris as the future.  Full-stop, I think traditional astartes are going the way of the Empire in Warhammer.  Right or Wrong I think that is happening.  

 

I am excited to explore those things.  I think we will get them.  I lament that some of this wasn't better fleshed out in the latest codexes.  But I have time lol.  I aint going anywhere msn-wink.gif


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#208
Brother Lunkhead

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The black rage does not define the Blood Angels. It's not what made them unique, but a grim dark topping on their existing characteristics. The wulfen don't define the Space Wolves either.

Also, this topic isn't for complaining about what you don't like, but about potential developments and improvements to new lore that as of right now is lacking details.

 Quite rightyes.gif …… I've been as guilty as anyone in  contributing to the negativism in this post so I apologize for that.

 

Moving on..... I'd like to see more information on the integration of Primaris in existing chapters. Do Primaris start off in the Scout company, or do they have a unique line of training? If they do start off as scouts, do they get upgraded from normal marines (an amusing concept, Normal Marinesunsure.png) and get the Primaris upgrade along with the black carapace upon being elevated from the scout ranks? 

 

 I'd also like to see some chain sword wielding, jump pack wearing Assault Primaris, as well as Primaris with missile launchers, lascannons, etc. I'm sure all of this will come from GW in time, but I'm an impatient fellow and want it NOWbiggrin.png

 

 

Currently it's not possible to "upgrade" regular Marines to Primaris. The procedure is just that they added a three more organs inbetween the already existing ones while "growing". So any Primaris Scout would already have all the organs eventually (and thus grow taller than non-Primaris Scouts) and would be only missing the black carapace to properly operate Power Armour.

 

 

Hmmm.... the reason I brought this up was there was an article in the GW lit (where and when I don't recall.... only that it was last year when the Primaris were first introduced) suggested that existing Space Marines could be "upgraded". This may or may not have been retconned already Granted, it does make more sense for Primaris implantation only possible during initial "growing" phase.... I'll have to research it......hmmmunsure.png


Edited by Brother Lunkhead, 12 August 2018 - 06:03 PM.


#209
sfPanzer

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The black rage does not define the Blood Angels. It's not what made them unique, but a grim dark topping on their existing characteristics. The wulfen don't define the Space Wolves either.

Also, this topic isn't for complaining about what you don't like, but about potential developments and improvements to new lore that as of right now is lacking details.

 Quite rightyes.gif …… I've been as guilty as anyone in  contributing to the negativism in this post so I apologize for that.

 

Moving on..... I'd like to see more information on the integration of Primaris in existing chapters. Do Primaris start off in the Scout company, or do they have a unique line of training? If they do start off as scouts, do they get upgraded from normal marines (an amusing concept, Normal Marinesunsure.png) and get the Primaris upgrade along with the black carapace upon being elevated from the scout ranks? 

 

 I'd also like to see some chain sword wielding, jump pack wearing Assault Primaris, as well as Primaris with missile launchers, lascannons, etc. I'm sure all of this will come from GW in time, but I'm an impatient fellow and want it NOWbiggrin.png

 

 

Currently it's not possible to "upgrade" regular Marines to Primaris. The procedure is just that they added a three more organs inbetween the already existing ones while "growing". So any Primaris Scout would already have all the organs eventually (and thus grow taller than non-Primaris Scouts) and would be only missing the black carapace to properly operate Power Armour.

 

 

Hmmm.... the reason I brought this up was there was an article in the GW lit (where and when I don't recall.... only that it was last year when the Primaris were first introduced) suggested that existing Space Marines could be "upgraded". This may or may not have been retconned already.... I'll have to research it......hmmmunsure.png

 

 

Afaik it was only mentioned once in a live stream and never mentioned or hinted or implied ever again.


Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

gallery_62972_10568_7658.jpgbFk9acX.pnggallery_62972_14467_40478.pngETL_VI_Banner_02_Oathbraker_.jpg


#210
Brother Lunkhead

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Thanks sfPanzer, as legitimate a source as anywacko.png. I've not seen it stated that post growth phase Primaris development is NOT possible. I'm sure this point will be made clear in the lore as we see more post Cawl Primaris in the GW/BL lit.



#211
Wargamer

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I second the idea that we need the process of Primaris creation codified and their progression explained in detail.

Thinking about this, I honestly think GW should retcon the Primaris OUT of existing Chapters. Instead of Ultramarines being the poster children for Primaris and True Marines, use someone else for the new guys - maybe Fulminators. Work with a blank slate to detail how Primaris work, think and operate without any existing baggage. This would also help avoid the issues of Primaris either being reskinned Ultramarines, or bad copies of their parent Chapter.
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"Taekar!" - Supernovan motto, battle cry, insult and general-purpose word.

 

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#212
UnkyHamHam

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I think it would great to advance the Primaris into wildly different, new, and progressive directions.

But the caveat should be that the commanders and historians make mention of losing certain favorable aspects that went along with the old chapter formations, styles of warfare, and chapter cults.

The Primaris just rationally cannot be perfect at everything. As pointed out by many of us frater, it just doesn't even make sense that they can be. At bare minimum until they have ported over every legacy unit and formation to a Primaris equivalent.

The goal here for me isn't to get rid of Primaris. I like em. But it's to make them less of a contrived Saturday morning cartoon hero made to please children, or for people that don't enjoy deeper storytelling and world building. Edit: or more accurately, people that are satisfied with shallow generic story telling and world building

Edited by UnkyHamHam, 12 August 2018 - 10:36 PM.

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#213
Brother Tyler

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I'd be satisfied if GW just said that the Primaris Marines are simply a redux of the Adeptus Astartes. Not something "new" or "different" or even "Primaris." It's just that GW decided to realign the Adeptus Astartes rules to better reflect the lore, and redesigned the models to modernize the game. And of course, they'd have to adjust the units to cover the range of legacy Adeptus Astartes units.

The introduction of Primaris Marines as something "new" created a whole lot of problems for GW in terms of models and future campaign development. Any campaigns that GW creates that are set in the past will require legacy Space Marine models. There weren't any Primaris Marines in the Scouring or the Age of Apostasy, after all. If GW had simply said that the new models were replacing the old ones, but the old ones could still be used, I think there would have been a lot fewer problems. They really limited their options when they chose to make the Primaris Marines what they are.

So not an addition to the setting, but a redesign of existing elements.

That's not likely to happen, though, so I'll just stop worrying about it. The Primaris appearance is, I think, an improvement over the legacy models (there are a few exceptions, but I'm not going to quibble).

The issue is obviously far more complex than I've made it sound, and I'm sure GW went through all of these ideas when they were designing the Primaris. So while I dislike the lore, I'm not going to get wrapped around the axle about it. I'm just going to shrug my shoulders and roll with it.
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#214
sfPanzer

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I honestly see it the other way around. Sure they could have simply replaced the old models and updated their stats but imo that would've been much more limiting since they would still have been bound to the already existing units like Tacticals, Devastators, Terminators and so on instead of now having the option to go for completely new kinds of units with the same role like Intercessors instead of Tacticals and Inceptors instead of shooty Assault Marines.

 

I see a lot more new options than problems for GW by introducing the Primaris as something new. It's the more risky but also potentially more rewarding decision. It just needs some time to develope properly and now that we're basically through with all the Codexes they can finally work on campaigns with new releases and whatnot.

As for campaigns in the past ... I think GW has shown that they have no problem releasing a new small range for such boxes like Burning of Prospero so it's completely possible for them to do that with regular Marines as well. Tho I doubt they have any interest of releasing something set in the past now that they decided to advance the storyline a bit.


Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

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#215
Felix Antipodes

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Could someone please point me to the BRB/Codex that states that Primaris are faster to produce than Astartes? Not being snide; just truly curious. From what I saw in the latest C:SM they go through the same process, with the Primaris receiving a few extra implants later in their creation cycle, so how does that equate to a speed up of the process?


On how to "improve" the current Primaris lore GW could start with dropping the current transport rules. It makes no sense that Primaris (who are not that much larger than Astartes) cannot fit into current Astartes vehicles. Either dump the existing transport use rules in the next CA or get on with introducing models they can fit into.

And please, lets not repeat the error by saying that Astartes are too small to utilise these new vehicles Posted Image
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#216
Brother Lunkhead

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We are probably stuck with transport rules as is. Primaris in power armor just won't fit.... not enough wiggle room. But I think Brother Felix is right about OG Marines and Primaris vehicles. Primaris are big but not so big that a OG Marine couldn't operate  with ease. 

 

The rules for Primaris use of the current range of transports could be easily fixed with some stat changes for Primaris….. modified for Primaris use. However, I'm sure this won't happen as GW certainly has plans for a Primaris range of transports and any rules mods might threaten sales, and we can't have thatno.gif






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