What were the Primarchs meant for?

[Jackalwolf]

 

Regarding the Trefoil: the Salamanders were very different before reuniting with Vulkan. They were deployed most commonly as an interdiction force against unexpected dangers behind crusade lines and performed best against long odds and when massively outnumbered. They can take beating and handle hostile environments second only to the Deathguard while being stronger than the other Astartes. Oh, and even recruits on Terra developed glowing red eyes and obsidian like skin. The trefoil may have been the Emperor's plan for domestic use of the Astartes against internal political strife and protest. The 20th legion was the secret police, the 18th legion was the terror troops, and the 6th legion was the executions. Some group decides democracy is the way to go and plans a protest - first line of defense is the 20th legion infiltrators pulling espionage shenanigans. If that does work, send in the 8 foot tall devil-men who can put down large scale unrest with chemical or radiological weapon while being unaffected (and can terrorize the populace by throwing around cars to create kettles for the protesters). If that doesn't work - time to send the hatchet men.

 

Regarding the Primarchs - sure they're tools, but the Emperor was never one to throw one out when it could used even if it was damaged (Angron) and even took the time to perform maintenance on them from time to time (Triumph at Ullanor), This sentence was added last - I'm a little punchy from tiredness so please excuse the irreverence:

• Lion El'Jonson - Unknown. No outstanding physical or pyschological traits in evidence versus the impact of Caliban on him to tell if he has a schtick.
• ??? - ???
• Fulgrim - The Fact Checker. He's the guy I'd want double checking everyone else's work, because if he thinks there's a better way to make a mouse trap then there probably is.
• Perturabo - The Guard at the Gate. He always knows where he is in relation to the Eye of Terror and has a knack for building fortifications.
• The Khan - It is implied that his breezy nature comes from his upbringing on Chogoris. There are some lines that the Vth legion's alpha intake showed an increase in individualism post-implantation. Perhaps he was meant to roam around looking under rocks to see what popped out.
• Russ - At is peak, arguably the second deadliest primarch perhaps tying with Sanguinius for first, among unmodified primarchs (no Butcher's Nails amping up Angron or Chaos Juice for Horus). The sandman for the other primarchs.
• Dorn - The Castellan. He, too, can build fortresses, but lacks the warp awareness of Perturabo.
• Curze - Oracle Part 1: ask him, "How can we fail?"
• Sanguinius - Oracle Part 2: ask him, "How can we succeed?"
• Ferrus the Manus - The Engineer, the one who thinks to build a mousetrap in the first place instead of chasing mice with a stick.
• ??? - ???
• Ang(ry)ron - The Butcher's Nails did too much harm to tell. There are some lines that the XiIth legion's alpha intake showed increased resistance to orders post-implantation. Maybe he was the Naysayer: if you couldn't convince him to do something then it wasn't a good idea?
• Robot (heh, autocorrect) - The One Man Bureaucracy, 'nuff said.
• Mortarion - "We keep sending cyborg maniples to get this rare adamantium, but they keep melting in the acid clouds. Could you be a good boy and fetch it for us?"
• Magnus - "Energizer, keeps going." An extra battery for the soul engine that is the Golden Throne.
• Horus - The Sociophace, the one you send to negotiate when you want things to get done because he can figure out which buttons motivate you and has no compunctions about pressing them.
• Larger - The Emphace, the one you send when you want to convince someone your side is just like theirs and you so much more in common than you realize; the only primarch to "look" like the Emperor to the common folk (unlike Magnus who looked like the Emperor to psykers and warp-sensitives).
• Vulkan - He's big, he's scary, and he bench lift a warhound titan, but he was raised by a nice commune of Shaker blacksmiths; see above re: Trefoil.
• Raven² - The Pauper Prince walks around unseen and looks for how the kingdom is failing its people.
• Primarch² - The Prince Pauper walks around unseen and looks for how the people are failing their kingdom.

That was brilliant lol.

[b1soul]

"Russ - At is peak, arguably the second deadliest primarch perhaps tying with Sanguinius for first, among unmodified primarchs (no Butcher's Nails amping up Angron or Chaos Juice for Horus). The sandman for the other primarchs."

 

...and this is based on?

[jaxom]

I'm way too tired/lazy to source all of it, but here's the gist. This usually comes up in context of "who could take down Horus?" or "No seriously, my Primarch is best but theses guys are okay, too." Most accounts of Primarch rock-paper-scissors are supposition with the four most common names being Horus, Sanguinius, Angron, and Russ. If not a member of those Primarch's legions, then the legion's Primarch is occasionally thrown in there.  Out of those, Sanguinius is openly acknowledged as a 'maybe win-maybe lose' by Russ if they threw down because Sanguinius is a perfect blend of skill and fury. Russ also mentions he'd have trouble with Curze because the guy is all fury/nerves/craziness/instinct. The common theme tends to be "Horus is Horus," he's on the list, "Sanguinius is just the right mix of instinct and skill," he's at the top or second the list, and the rest of the list is a grab bag of the "least civilized" Primarchs. The actual Primarch fights (between unaugmented Primarchs) seems to support the supposition.

• Curzes jumps Dorn
• Curze jumps Corax but it's arguably a stalemate
• Corax whoops Lorgar
• Russ beats Magnus (1)
• Butcher Nails Angron beats Russ (2)
• Lion and Russ stalemate (3)
• Khan beats Mortarion
• Dorn beats Alpharius (4)
• Fulgrim beats Ferrus (5)
• Lion stalemates Curze (6)
• Lion whoops Curze (6)

1. This one plays a large role is giving Peak Russ the benefit of doubt. Magnus is the only 'true' psyker and capable of mind-lasering an Eldar titan's leg off. Russ beats him....

2. One could quibble that Russ could have done better if he was trying to kill Angron and not restrained to no-death blows (and considering the escalation of force required when dealing with someone as tough and healing-capable as a Primarch there may be something to that; it a common motif that maiming an Astartes is not a way to get them to stop fighting - extrapolate to a Primarch).

3. The Lion wasn't trying to kill Russ, but Russ may have been trying to kill the Lion after being disarmed. Russ seems to have specifically not mentioned the Lion when talking to the Knight-Errants about who could beat whom.

4. Alpharius has rather consistently been written as smaller than the other Primarchs and his focus has never been raw combat (cough wounded by a human cough). It's not all that surprising that a 'more martial' Primarch would win that match up.

5. There was so much baggage to that fight I have trouble extrapolating any generalities from it.

6. I am biased as a fan of the Lion, but I think this still makes sense within the larger context. When the Lion is observed by others, he seems to limit himself to fighting like a knight, but his actual background is surviving to Primarch manhood alone on a death world. He stalemated with Curze the first time because Curze opened up a can of crazy. The second time, the Lion countered with his own can of feral.

 

TL;DR: The crazier Primarchs beat the saner Primarchs with the most powerful being a good blend of crazy and something else. Sanguinius (crazy and skilled) and Russ (crazy and cunning) are usually at the top of the list along with Angron (crazy and enhanced). 

[Kizzdougs]

4. Alpharius has rather consistently been written as smaller than the other Primarchs and his focus has never been raw combat (cough wounded by a human cough). It's not all that surprising that a 'more martial' Primarch would win that match up.

 

 

Are you talking about Namatjira wounding 'Alpharius' in Legion? I was under the impression that that wasn't actually the Primarch.

In the Dorn vs Alpharius fight I felt that Alpharius actually had the upper hand until Archamus intervened and tipped the scales.

 

[b1soul]

The Lion beat Curze like a red-headed stepchild twice (Prince of Crows and Angels of Caliban)

[Jackalwolf]

I'd definitely agree with that statement of raw dueling ability. I'd just not put Angron with nails as an enhancement since they take away as much or more than what they give back.

[helterskelter]

Jaghatai from warhawk of chogoris would like a word

if you think he was actually trying to kill Mortarion proper, I have a whole murder segment that might perhaps suggest he wasn't quite in the mood

[jaxom]

I'd definitely agree with that statement of raw dueling ability. I'd just not put Angron with nails as an enhancement since they take away as much or more than what they give back.

 

Personally I agree. My last post was based on comparing and winnowing down what folks from the books seem to think. Russ makes the comment that he could take Angron because Angron's too angry.

 

Jaghatai from warhawk of chogoris would like a word

 

Haven't read that one yet, so avoiding the spoiler 

 

 

4. Alpharius has rather consistently been written as smaller than the other Primarchs and his focus has never been raw combat (cough wounded by a human cough). It's not all that surprising that a 'more martial' Primarch would win that match up.

 

 

Are you talking about Namatjira wounding 'Alpharius' in Legion? I was under the impression that that wasn't actually the Primarch.

In the Dorn vs Alpharius fight I felt that Alpharius actually had the upper hand until Archamus intervened and tipped the scales.

 

I'm not sure about the former, but you are so right about the latter; I completely forgot that bit  . 

[b1soul]

@ helterskelter

 

Could you elaborate?

[bluntblade]

I'm still wedded to the notion of the Prospero duel being uncertain.

[b1soul]

"Uncertain"?

 

In what sense?

[helterskelter]

@ helterskelter

 

Could you elaborate?

Definite spoiler for jags primarch novel ahead

so, the white scars are fighting Orks for the first time, they've cornered them to one last stronghold where allllll the biggest and meanest orks are. Jaghatai, Qin Xa + co, another chogorian from early days, and a Luna wolf and co are down in the bowels of the base and the other chogorian breaks ahead to try and take out a huge nasty, he gets launched into a volcanic pit and everything seems to stop as Jaghatai watches him die. Including the orks. It's at this point Jaghatai gets particularly upset, and by this I mean proceeds to murder everything in sight that is Ork shaped. The Luna wolf goes to follow and Qin Xa stops him saying no. The Orks that tried to fight couldn't so much as scratch Jaghatai and we're talking a horde of Nobs+ here, he utterly and totally ruins them, making Orks run away, then he enters a little interior base and all you hear is Orks Screaming, he walks out covered head to foot in Ork blood, Qin Xa asks him if it's done and Jaghatai says it is. Seriously buy the book. Get to this scene. If Jaghatai does this at the siege he will 100% banish Mortarion

 

A.k.a why Jaghatai/the white scars have tempted me away from night lords.

[b1soul]

@ helterskelter

 

I think Jaghatai was trying to kill Mort with that last coin-toss do-or-die strike...but yeah, when he fought Mort, he did not reach that almost divine state in which the distance between thought and action is zero

 

If he ever manages to enter that state, he might be able to banish Daemon Fulgrim or defeat Nurgle-blessed Mortarion

[Kasper_Hawser]

Not sure if a non-daemon primarch can kill a daemon primarch, but if anyone in the materium can beat them, it has to be a primarch.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Perturabo wins against Daemon angron in slaves to darkness.

 

I think honestly all primarchs have a shot at killing/defeating each other as long as they know what they're going in to. The only exceptions are pre-eye lorgar when he had no purpose and Horus when he's full warmaster of Chaos.

 

On topic I think it's impossible to say what the plans were post crusade. There's so many inconsistentcies due to how the emperor interacts with people, the whole malcador/Laurie golding contempt of audience short story and older novels referring to how there's primarch houses on Terra. Lots of possibilities, but I prefer the ones that the crusade era was more hopeful and would have had everyone still around afterwards instead, rather 40k-10k in terms of grimdarkness

[Gorgoff]

That's possible right. Even without the heresy there would have been wars to be fought and "stuff" to do for a primarch.

[b1soul]

Perturabo had a lot of support, no?

 

Also, Perturabo should be Chaos-buffed, just not Daemonic...right?

[Robbienw]

Nothing to indicate he is chaos buffed at this point.

 

He approached the situation sensibly, because he knew what to do to make a daemon less powerful - prevent the world eaters who's killing was empowering angron from killng anything more, + apply liberal amounts of firepower and selected hits from his thunderhammer.

 

There is no unwritten rule that says a primarch vs primarch fight should be hand to hand only.  Liberal use of firepower and careful planning are also allowed.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Yea he used cold logic and firepower to handle him. And at least to me, with all the crazy primarch melee weapons, guns aren't going into realms of unfairness

[b1soul]

To be fair, shouldn't Perturabo (and all Traitor primarchs) be Chaos-buffed by the late Heresy?

 

Horus obviously is

 

Mortarion almost certainly is...he hasn't taken his full quota of gifts but he has taken some

 

Curze seems somewhat corrupted in Savage Weapons though it might just be his self-neglect...however, by Unremembered Empire, he seems almost semi-daemonic in a couple scenes.

 

Lorgar is blessed by Chaos

 

Angron, Fulgrim, and Magnus are daemon princes

 

Only Alpharius and Omegon seem relatively Chaos-free. I suppose Perturabo could be more akin to the twins.

 

EDIT: Yes, I agree that Perturabo fought a tactical fight and employed the necessary support to take down Angron. He didn't try to solo Angron with nothing but his hammer.

 

If the Khan manages to beat Fulgrim or Mortarion at the Siege. It should be something similar.

[SkimaskMohawk]

A big issue is sorcery fueled by a god/gods and inherent psychic potential.

 

Lorgar is a psyker who openly worships the pantheon and uses it to create rituals (ruinstorm), but we haven't specifically seen him powered by any of the gods. He embraced his potential and stopped doubting himself, thus mastering his psychic capability.

 

Curze is a psyker in mainly the form of an oracle or doom-seer, though there's been some funkyness with breaking lights. He's also insane, so wrapped up in these visions of the future and justifying his existence, that there's little left. There's also no proof that he's been powered by one of the gods, or had his psychic powers boosted.

 

Mortarion is practicing sorcery. He's opened the door to chaos and channeling its power. He's the most corrupt and most "boosted by chaos" without being a daemon prince/horus.

 

Horus got blessed by the pantheon and is straight up boosted by them. All of his psychic ability seems to come from his power boost.

 

Perty's got nothing that I'm aware of, granted I did skip Tallarn. His closest association is volk getting possessed in slaves to darkness. No proof of power boosting.

[b1soul]

Perturabo has his Warp vision...seeing the Eye of Terror. Every Primarch is (partially) a creature of the Warp. That's a reason why they're so incredibly powerful

 

...but yes, I would say there is less direct evidence that Pert is Chaos-empowered

 

What would constitute evidence in your view? An explicit statement by the narrator or a reliable character?

 

Curze's mouth distends grotesquely in Unremembered Empire...that seems to be evidence

[SkimaskMohawk]

Evidence of what? It's been a long time since I've read UE, so I'd like the actual context. 

 

You need some sort of evidence that a character is more powerful or using abilities beyond their normal range to call them powered by chaos. Hearsay, eyewitness, narrative, whatever; them fighting and acting normally, in line with their character isn't "less direct evidence", it's no evidence. All primarchs have abilities, agreed, but that doesn't arbitrarily make them boosted by chaos for a specific fight with no narrative acknowledgment.

[b1soul]

Evidence of possible Chaos corruption:

Konrad Curze came out of somewhere. It was not exactly clear where. It might have been a shadow, or a fold of drapery, or even merely a tiny crack in the wall. He manifested. He was monstrously vast, a black shadow, power claws unfurled like the flight feathers of a raven. His hair was a halo of filth. His mouth was impossibly large, a yawning, blackened maw that stretched the thin white flesh of his angular skull as though it would split it. His right cheek was slashed to the bone and clotted with dark blood.

 

As for Perturabo, let me turn the question around.

 

By the late Heresy, Perturabo has...

already traveled to the heart of the Eye of Terror with Fulgrim and felt the temptation of Chaos

been aligned for several years with the side manipulated by Chaos

 

Perturabo ultimately ends up as a Daemon Prince of Chaos Undivided in the immediate aftermath of the Heresy.

 

It seems very probable that Chaos sinks its tendrils into Perturabo some time before the Siege.

 

Why are you assuming that Perturabo is Chaos-free even on the eve of the Siege?

[bluntblade]

Characters do talk about the passage through the Eye affecting Perturabo, several times.

 

Plus in StD after

his duel with Angron

he moves like he hadn't been injured at all.