Alternatives to Belisarius Cawl solves all

[Robbienw]

I don't understand why anyone would want to stick to the same looking vehicles, over and over, which by the way now look positively tiny when compared to other transports for other armies. I was so happy to see the FW Astraeus tank. I think it was too big as a kit, and over-costed in points, but I loved the new design and it wasn't like any prior Astartes vehicle.

It is because they are a design classic. Nothing can beat the utilitarian military look and adaptability of the rhino. I’m not personally after more variants of it; I agree there are enough. But when the time comes and the mold wears out I want a new update.

 

As for the size, ever was it thus for space marine vehicles. The repulsor continues this trend by being way too small to fit 10 intercessors or helblasters in.

 

As for the Astreaus, I laughed when I first saw it. It is indeed not like a space marine vehicle, it looks like a Star Wars imperial vehicle, or a human tank from one of several video games. But it does have cool fluff pertinent to this thread; cawl didn’t build it out of nowhere, it was an STC recovered by the minoutaurs to which he refitted his repulsor plates and some weapons.

[Ishagu]

I like Rhinos too, and I own lot of them. You can buy some more if you want to.

I want something else, more varied and exciting, as I'm sure many others do as well. I agree the Repulsor could be a little bit bigger but it looks great on the table, far better and more to scale than a Rhino that's for sure.

 

As for laughing at the Astraeus, it' certainly not an ugly vehicle - actually very impressive in person. You have an adverse opinion to the new models by the sound of it, and beyond your personal tastes there's no real logic to it but that's perfectly fine. You can ignore anything new and keep buying the older models, the Marine line is very complete. I on the other hand can't wait to see the new and exciting designs coming in the near future. A correction on the lore, the Astraeus I believe was the product of innovation merging multiple STCs.

 

Going back to Cawl, I'm really hoping the sequel to Dark Imperium will feature him in some way. The conversation between Guilliman and "Cawl" in the first book was fascinating.

[Robbienw]

As for laughing at the Astraeus, it' certainly not an ugly vehicle - actually very impressive in person. You have an adverse opinion to the new models by the sound of it, and beyond your personal tastes there's no real logic to it but that's perfectly fine. You can ignore anything new and keep buying the older models, the Marine line is very complete. I on the other hand can't wait to see the new and exciting designs coming in the near future. A correction on the lore, the Astraeus I believe was the product of innovation merging multiple STCs.

Well uglyness is in the eye of the beholder.

 

As for the for having an adverse opinion to the new models, that’s not true, I quite like the look of the repulsor and don’t mind the redemptor. It is correct that my opinion for all other Primaris models is adverse however :lol:

[chapter master 454]

I have made my own piece on how Gulliman should of been revived and in regards to Primaris, at that point Cawl wouldn't be such an issue in my version. As it stands, he had done A LOT in current lore while just seemingly appeared like Hercules.

 

I need to dig through my version of how Gulliman would come back but the general vibe is as follows:

 

Black Legion attacks Ultramar. The fighting is fierce as only the 1st company are present with some elements of other companies. The other companies are racing back as fast as they can, Cato Sicarius NOT getting convenient time travel. Calgar is pushed back into the chamber of his primarch along with Tigerius and the remains of the 1st company. The last stand is defeated besides calgar who still stands, even Tigerius is laid low and barely alive. Abaddon decides to step forth and take on Calgar himself, though it was a ruse. The duel is fierce and fiery and would certainly make for some awesome art. The Black Legion Succeed in turning off the stasis field for Gulliman's throne, Calgar not able to protect the key conduit anymore having to deal with Abaddon. As this reaches the peak, he is alerted to the arrival of the Ultramarines 2nd Company and other elements converging down on their position meaning that Abaddon has little time to finish his business and thus spends his time gloating in triumph intending to allow the wound that was dealt to Gulliman finish him off.

To your surprise, no Gulliman does not power through it. Tigerius, seeing his only chance and this to be his final act uses every last ounce of his psychic might to heal Gulliman in a massive blast of power. He falls to the floor, dead but it doesn't stop legionnaires putting a few bolt rounds into him to be sure. The room goes silent. Moments pass as Abaddon looks on, his smile then turns to rage and a roar of hatred as the form of Roboute Gulliman rises from his throne, lifting his sword and boltgun and begins to stride forth and cleave traitor apart as they panic at his return. Abaddon itches to attack but is reminded of his time limit, and with a snarl falls back and escapes.

Cassius and Cato Sicarius are the first (after Calgar) to see their Primarch (Cassius was with an earlier defence line and was thought dead but he is too stubborn to die).

 

From there, it plays out as it does. Primaris are introduced with Cawl who now hasn't just been the most important character in all of the story (without him we would never of had Gulliman come back nor primaris). The Ultramarines take yet another loss of the 1st company and we go from there.

 

There just needs to be toning back of Cawl's deeds really. "I made Gulliman's new armour AND his new marines AND all their wargear AND this AND I invented sliced bread AND the paper clip"

[Ishagu]

I'd have loved for Guilliman to kill Abaddon, and thus herald the rise of the Daemon Primarchs who see an opportunity to seize power.

 

I've never liked Abaddon, and reading about him in the HH does nothing to really change that.

[bryanp319]

I didn't see this suggested here so how about,

 

Cawl didn't invent anything new at all, in working with Gulliman and the Emperor he managed to figure out how the Thunder Warriors were created and set about recreating the Thunder Warriors repackaged with new armour and weapons hence the greater durability of Primaris Marines. They have been in use for so short a period of time that we haven't seen the genetic defects and breakdown that went along with the Thunder Warriors effect the Primaris Marines yet but it is coming. 

[Brother Lunkhead]

I'd have loved for Guilliman to kill Abaddon, and thus herald the rise of the Daemon Primarchs who see an opportunity to seize power.

 

I've never liked Abaddon, and reading about him in the HH does nothing to really change that.

 

I like Abaddon as presented in the HH lit more. He's far too aloof for my taste in the 40K fluff and lit (haven't finished AD-B's Black Legion yet, but to date that opinion hasn't changed). He's not nearly charismatic enough for me to see him as having such devoted followers.

 

I know, I know.... this is outside of the topic..... just adding my two cents..... sorry, I'll play nice now

[Dracos]

 

As for laughing at the Astraeus, it' certainly not an ugly vehicle - actually very impressive in person. You have an adverse opinion to the new models by the sound of it, and beyond your personal tastes there's no real logic to it but that's perfectly fine. You can ignore anything new and keep buying the older models, the Marine line is very complete. I on the other hand can't wait to see the new and exciting designs coming in the near future. A correction on the lore, the Astraeus I believe was the product of innovation merging multiple STCs.

Well uglyness is in the eye of the beholder.

 

As for the for having an adverse opinion to the new models, that’s not true, I quite like the look of the repulsor and don’t mind the redemptor. It is correct that my opinion for all other Primaris models is adverse however

 

 

Marvelous, truly. My own feelings on the looks of the Primaris line s exactly opposite. I love all the infantry models, even the Aggressors ... can't stand and won't buy the vehicles and dreadnought. I would be perfectly happy to be carrying 6 Primaris in a Rhino. 

 

In the Eye of the Beholder indeed :)

[Blindhamster]

I like all of it to varied degrees. Though I do like older marines too still. I just prefer primaris infantry generally (possible exception being the deathwatch models which I love)

[Bjorn Firewalker]

 

I'd have loved for Guilliman to kill Abaddon, and thus herald the rise of the Daemon Primarchs who see an opportunity to seize power.

 

I've never liked Abaddon, and reading about him in the HH does nothing to really change that.

I like Abaddon as presented in the HH lit more. He's far too aloof for my taste in the 40K fluff and lit (haven't finished AD-B's Black Legion yet, but to date that opinion hasn't changed). He's not nearly charismatic enough for me to see him as having such devoted followers.

From what I understand, Abaddon was and is the "compromise candidate." The Chaos Gods know they must unite their powers to defeat the Emperor, but the Traitor Primarchs' demonstrated tendency to fight their brothers due to greed, pride, or faith (e.g., there's no way a Khorne worshiper will ever intentionally offer aid to, or receiv aid from, one who worshiped Slaanesh, Khorne's most hated rival), means appointing one of them in command will result in counterproductive infighting. Abaddon was and is the only one with just enough power and influence to get the Traitor Primarchs to listen, but without enough power and influence to actually threaten the Traitor Primarchs- they can trust Abaddon with the resources needed to strike a blow against the Imperium, knowing if Abaddon betrays them and runs off with those resources, the Traitor Primarchs can and will hunt him down and tear him limb-from-limb.

[Kallas]

As for laughing at the Astraeus, it' certainly not an ugly vehicle - actually very impressive in person. You have an adverse opinion to the new models by the sound of it, and beyond your personal tastes there's no real logic to it but that's perfectly fine.

You can't say an opinion is wrong - it is an ugly model to some people, it's not to others. And really, this snippet is pretty indicative of your whole attitude around Primaris, personal taste isn't necessarily logical but there isn't a right or wrong - "there's no real logic [to not liking it]" is a ridiculous statement.

[Ishagu]

I didn't say an opinion is wrong, I said it's perfectly fine to dislike it but that doesn't make it objectively ugly.

[Kallas]

I didn't say an opinion is wrong, I said it's perfectly fine to dislike it but that doesn't make it objectively ugly.

And they didn't say it was objectively ugly. But you did say it wasn't objectively ugly.

[Wargamer]

With regard to the idea that we need Cawl to have new vehicles... I don't think that's the case. We know that a lot of Imperial tech must be a composite of STC fragments - the more complex the tech, the more likely multiple STCs are used.

 

So why can't we see a new vehicle hull built that way? The Repulsor looks like it might be using Land Raider parts, so as long as it adheres to certain stylistic themes it's passable.

[Robbienw]

With regard to the idea that we need Cawl to have new vehicles... I don't think that's the case. We know that a lot of Imperial tech must be a composite of STC fragments - the more complex the tech, the more likely multiple STCs are used.

 

So why can't we see a new vehicle hull built that way? The Repulsor looks like it might be using Land Raider parts, so as long as it adheres to certain stylistic themes it's passable.

That’s why I like the Repulsor, it is clearly from the same family of vehicles as the current SM vehicles. It looks a lot like a land raider and very STC.

[FlamingDeth]

I don't mind Cawl's mere presence. Admech still needs more characters. I do think he could have been handled better. In my own headcannon I've decided that the emperor invented Primaris shortly before the heresy began in an attempt to fix the geneflaws that we're popping up in the legions, and he just didn't have time to implement them. During the siege of Terra the data for it was damaged and, per Big G's orders, Cawl has basically been running a futuristic defragmentation program to recover the data. I'm just fine with him being responsible for the gear upgrades, just leave the biology and genetics to the emperor.

 

Also a big fan of the "tottering tower of favors" idea mentioned earlier. If he starts having former "associates" start coming out to oppose him that would be fantastic. Possibly new rivals that appear as Admech special characters!

 

On the minor segue of Primaris models, I'm partial to the non-reiver infantry and the dreadnought, but can't stand the repulsor. It's some kind of floating land raider weapon porcupine.

[Bjorn Firewalker]

I don't mind Cawl's mere presence. Admech still needs more characters. I do think he could have been handled better. In my own headcannon I've decided that the emperor invented Primaris shortly before the heresy began in an attempt to fix the geneflaws that we're popping up in the legions, and he just didn't have time to implement them. During the siege of Terra the data for it was damaged and, per Big G's orders, Cawl has basically been running a futuristic defragmentation program to recover the data. I'm just fine with him being responsible for the gear upgrades, just leave the biology and genetics to the emperor.

I agree. This idea has merit.

Also a big fan of the "tottering tower of favors" idea mentioned earlier. If he starts having former "associates" start coming out to oppose him that would be fantastic. Possibly new rivals that appear as Admech special characters!

This seems redundant, considering there are Puritanical Inquisitors- some of whom are also AdMech acolytes, as noted in 'The Emperor's Gift'- who'd oppose Cawl on their own definition of "general principles."

[Xisor]

 

I don't mind Cawl's mere presence. Admech still needs more characters. I do think he could have been handled better. In my own headcannon I've decided that the emperor invented Primaris shortly before the heresy began in an attempt to fix the geneflaws that we're popping up in the legions, and he just didn't have time to implement them. During the siege of Terra the data for it was damaged and, per Big G's orders, Cawl has basically been running a futuristic defragmentation program to recover the data. I'm just fine with him being responsible for the gear upgrades, just leave the biology and genetics to the emperor.

I agree. This idea has merit.

Also a big fan of the "tottering tower of favors" idea mentioned earlier. If he starts having former "associates" start coming out to oppose him that would be fantastic. Possibly new rivals that appear as Admech special characters!

This seems redundant, considering there are Puritanical Inquisitors- some of whom are also AdMech acolytes, as noted in 'The Emperor's Gift'- who'd oppose Cawl on their own definition of "general principles."

I'm sure every bit of intrateam politics is thereby removed from all narrative existence because it is redundant when you already have external enemies.

 

Spoiler: politics (and indeed literature) doesn't seem to be quite that neat.

 

"Oh, you already have an enemy? Fine, I'll go bother someone else!"

[b1soul]

@ bryanp319

 

The Primaris have been around for over a hundred years

 

I'm pretty sure Thunder Warrior degradation occurs well within a hundred years

 

The SM Codex also makes it clear that Primaris are SM with a few additional organs

[Callan]

I've always been of the opinion that Primaris Marines are exactly what their name suggests: Version 1.0.  Classic Marines were Version 0.8 or so.  When the Primarchs were taken by that Chaos storm, the Emperor suddenly had neither the time nor the resources to finish developing the gene-seed from the Primarchs' DNA, so he just deployed them as-is, figured they were good enough for now, and got on with more pressing concerns, like the Crusade and the Imperial Webway project.  The idea that Cawl substantially improved on the Space Marines is based on a) how he managed to actually implement the design notes, and b) his own egomania.  Though maybe he did contribute a bit - the Emperor never considered himself a god, meaning that in his opinion, the efforts of mortals aren't useless.  And hey, maybe the Emperor Himself managed to put his ethereal thumb on the scales, because He wants the project to succeed...

 

I do, however, wish their introduction was a bit more dramatic.  It has a ton of story potential, but it all seems glossed over.  The directive from GW seems to be to introduce the basis for these new Marine models and move right along.  I think that's a mistake.  If there was a bit more conflict in-character over it, I feel like this debate would resolve itself.  Instead, it seems like the issue remains largely unaddressed.  At least until it's been revealed that Cawl has been working with traitor gene-seed...

 

As for the appearance conversation, I love the look of the Primaris.  I think that the Mk X Tacticus armor has relatively sleek, elegant lines, and it appeals to me.  The Gravis armor compares well to the Terminator armor in the same way.

[Ishagu]

People have issues with Cawl improving Marines, but I have no problem with this. Marines are NOT the finest work of the Emperor, they are literally a mass produced Plan B following Chaos messing up his plans. The reason why this didn't happen sooner is because most of the Mechanicus and High Lords are inept and unable to do what should have been done.

 

If Cawl made Prmarchs 2.0, or Custodes 2.0, then I'll have massive issues with that.

[Wargamer]

People have issues with Cawl improving Marines, but I have no problem with this. Marines are NOT the finest work of the Emperor, they are literally a mass produced Plan B following Chaos messing up his plans. The reason why this didn't happen sooner is because most of the Mechanicus and High Lords are inept and unable to do what should have been done.

 

If Cawl made Prmarchs 2.0, or Custodes 2.0, then I'll have massive issues with that.

I'm going to save this for posterity's sake, so when you start defending GW's release of Primstodes I can quote it back to you. 

[Callan]

People have issues with Cawl improving Marines, but I have no problem with this. Marines are NOT the finest work of the Emperor, they are literally a mass produced Plan B following Chaos messing up his plans. The reason why this didn't happen sooner is because most of the Mechanicus and High Lords are inept and unable to do what should have been done.

 

If Cawl made Prmarchs 2.0, or Custodes 2.0, then I'll have massive issues with that.

The Emperor may have been the greatest of men, but he was only a man (at the time).  He even insisted as much.  I'm sure, if you had asked him about the possibility that someone could use his notes and his currently existing project and from there engineer an improvement to the project from where he'd left it, he'd have told you that's entirely possible.  If he insisted that his works were perfect and beyond the work of ordinary men... well, that sounds like someone who thinks himself a god.

 

My issue with how Cawl is handled is not with the idea that he improved upon what the Emperor made, but that he's just one dude, fixing all the things, and Guilliman approved it so I guess everyone else will just shrug and accept it.  The whole thing seems more like a vehicle to get the plot to where GW needs it to be, rather than a good story in its own right.  Which is weird, because the basis for a great story is THERE, and they're just deciding not to follow up.  ... yet?

[Ishagu]

Lol even I have limits. But I do stand by what I said. People who don't believe Cawl should be able to improve the Astartes design are lacking some lore knowledge. The Thunder Warriors were more impressive than Astartes and Primaris alike.

 

 

To Callan:

 

But we don't know that Cawl is just one dude. Remember he controls large portions of Mars, has split his mind into multiple copies, etc, etc. He probably has an army of Scribes and tech priests at his command, they simply haven't been named. At any one time there are probably 10 Cawl's - each in charge of projects worked on by thousands.

 

It was always going to be one individual, a few at best doing this. The Mechanicus has regressed and become technologically repressive. I imagine their outlook will gradually change as Cawl gains more influence. He's probably the 2nd or 3rd most powerful man in the Mechanicus as is.

I know that only hearing about him in the last 2 years seems cheap but until recently we didn't even have the name of the Fabricator general and 99% of people still can't name him.

[Wargamer]

Lol even I have limits. But I do stand by what I said. People who don't believe Cawl should be able to improve the Astartes design are lacking some lore knowledge. The Thunder Warriors were more impressive than Astartes and Primaris alike.

 

Master of Mankind disagrees - the Custodes, Ra is shown a vision of the Thunder Warriors during the Unification Wars and remarks how they were completely unsuitable for the conquest of the galaxy.

 

As an aside, I've come to suspect people are falling into a fallacy that raw power = superior. Yes, an Ork is stronger than practically every other warrior in the 40K universe, but I'd still say that an Aspect Warrior is far superior due to their better equipment, skills, speed, agility and adaptability.

 

A Thunder Warrior might beat an Astartes in a fist fight, but an Astartes would make sure it never came down to fists.