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vs Pink Horror Spam (TSons & Tzeentch)


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#1
Blackcadian

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Commanders!

 

Once again I beseech your aid!

 

My foul gaming buddy favors cut-throat lists (Eldar Dark Reapers in a bastion for instance) and his last vile creation has proven too strong to overcome for me.

 

It consists of 30 Pink Horros buffed by a selection of characters, with some cheap chaff units thrown in for good measure. For those unfamiliar with the concept, the Horrors have a 18" shooting attack that gets buffed by them being a unit of more than 20, I think it goes up to 2 or 3 shots each with S5. They also get a 4+ (?) invul that can be increased to a 3++ with a stratagem, and to top it off they get a 5+++ thanks to another buff char. All quite annoying as you can imagine.

 

The characters are behnid the line of Horrors (they could also be surrounded by them), so only snipers can target them.

 

Their range is their most obvious weakness, but with so many that's still a lot of board they get to control. Tying them up in combat would be next, but that exposes any unit that does this to smite spam.

 

Currently I'm thinking Death Company to try and bring them below 20 with weight of attacks is my best option, with 15 sniper scouts to hunt the characters, and a Castellan for the Oathbreaker Missile stratagem.

 

Does that sound viable to you?

 

Thanks!



#2
Majkhel

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Check this thread: http://www.bolterand...-tzeentch-blob/
Practically the same question asked.

 

DC, massed assault cannons/bolter fire are all viable options. DC is meant to die msn-wink.gif Just be sure you have something else in your basket to finish off the stragglers.
You only need to bring 11 down to deprive them of increased number of attacks. You should have 2 rounds of shooting to do that before they close in and on turn 2 you can bring down wrath from heaven (deep striking units) wherever you need it.
Leave the snipers out - the're unreliable in taking down characters.


Edited by Majkhel, 08 August 2018 - 11:43 AM.

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#3
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Ditto what he said ^ and aggressors spring to mind here too. A unit of 6 buffed by the standard of sacrifice and corbulo or priest to raise dead...if your oppo moves first, you've got a bunch of T5 with 5+++ and even if he does kill a few, you'll still cause some casualties with the Astartes banner rule. Then in your turn, you've got each model firing twice so 12 + 2D6 shots each at S4. With this unit mix they killed 57 poxwalkers in one game, in the next they routed 30 blood letters with one volley and destroyed a contemptor in the same turn. Hidden quad launchers or whirlwinds will also soften them up and you can never have too many heavy bolters. Sprinkle with charging scouts and DC for the coup de grace.

Think Donald Sutherland sitting atop a Land Raider Redeemer, speakers blaring out 'Singing in the rain' to the accompaniment of falling drop pods...

 

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#4
Karhedronuk

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I faced a similar army last month and assaulting with DC proved pretty effective. A 10 man squad with Lemartes churns out 40 attacks on the charge which results in around 36 hits, 30 wounds, 15 failed saves and 10 actual casualties once their FNP-equiv kicks in. That is 10 dead and another 6-8 in morale casualties. Add in a few more kills from bolters and you can very quickly vapourise the unit. It's a nasty combo but we have the tools to deal with it.

Oathbreaker missiles are a good way to knock out the supporting characters. How many greater daemons does your opponent run? If he brings the big boys then a Castellan will have good targets for its Volcano Lance. If he runs mostly units of lesser daemons, you may be better off with a Valiant for horde control.

Sanguinius stood up, stretching his wings to their full extent. He flexed his hands. "I need no blade".
It was as though Sanguinius gleamed with pale light, his face white, eyes becoming blood-red, surrounded by the golden crown of flowing hair. Guilliman had witnessed glimpses of of his brother's wrath before, but had never seen the true Blood Angel unleashed. Sanguinius surged forward on alabaster wings, half a meter from the floor, whiteness streaming from him like flames.


#5
Blackcadian

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Check this thread: http://www.bolterand...-tzeentch-blob/
Practically the same question asked.

DC, massed assault cannons/bolter fire are all viable options. DC is meant to die msn-wink.gif Just be sure you have something else in your basket to finish off the stragglers.
You only need to bring 11 down to deprive them of increased number of attacks. You should have 2 rounds of shooting to do that before they close in and on turn 2 you can bring down wrath from heaven (deep striking units) wherever you need it.
Leave the snipers out - the're unreliable in taking down characters.

Thanks for the link and the helpful suggestions, to be honest I didn’t do a forum search this time 😬

Ditto what he said ^ and aggressors spring to mind here too. A unit of 6 buffed by the standard of sacrifice and corbulo or priest to raise dead...if your oppo moves first, you've got a bunch of T5 with 5+++ and even if he does kill a few, you'll still cause some casualties with the Astartes banner rule. Then in your turn, you've got each model firing twice so 12 + 2D6 shots each at S4. With this unit mix they killed 57 poxwalkers in one game, in the next they routed 30 blood letters with one volley and destroyed a contemptor in the same turn. Hidden quad launchers or whirlwinds will also soften them up and you can never have too many heavy bolters. Sprinkle with charging scouts and DC for the coup de grace.

Sweet!! Another reason to purchase aggressors, sigh- I thought my BA finished purchase wise 😂 Sounds great though!

I faced a similar army last month and assaulting with DC proved pretty effective. A 10 man squad with Lemartes churns out 40 attacks on the charge which results in around 36 hits, 30 wounds, 15 failed saves and 10 actual casualties once their FNP-equiv kicks in. That is 10 dead and another 6-8 in morale casualties. Add in a few more kills from bolters and you can very quickly vapourise the unit. It's a nasty combo but we have the tools to deal with it.

Oathbreaker missiles are a good way to knock out the supporting characters. How many greater daemons does your opponent run? If he brings the big boys then a Castellan will have good targets for its Volcano Lance. If he runs mostly units of lesser daemons, you may be better off with a Valiant for horde control.


He doesn’t run any as far as I’m aware of, he does own Magnus though 🤔 The trouble with proxying a Valiant though is that I don’t even know for sure that he’ll show up with his Tzeentch army. He might try to throw me a curve ball by bringing his Eldar this time, and usually there are quite a few vehicles (and/or the bastion) included.

In you example above did you include the fact that the pinks split into blues which split into Brimstones, so lots of ablative wounds before another pink is removed? Or doesn’t it work this way regarding wound allocation?

Thanks!!

Edited by Blackcadian, 09 August 2018 - 08:21 AM.


#6
Xenith

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T3 4++ still die like guard in carapace armour to boltguns. Weight of fire will win the day.

 

Maybe try deepstriking 2 units at the same time on either side, so no matter which side of the unit he removes casualties from, he exposes the characters to one of your shooting units. 

 

Tac squad in a TLAC Razorback?


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#7
Karhedronuk

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In you example above did you include the fact that the pinks split into blues which split into Brimstones, so lots of ablative wounds before another pink is removed? Or doesn’t it work this way regarding wound allocation?


That is a good question, I am not completely sure how wound allocation works in this case. To be honest, I primarily relied on morale to finish the unit off since models that flee do not split. This worked fine until he rolled a 1 and instead of lots of fleeing models, he regenerated D6 Pink horrors. censored.gif


Sanguinius stood up, stretching his wings to their full extent. He flexed his hands. "I need no blade".
It was as though Sanguinius gleamed with pale light, his face white, eyes becoming blood-red, surrounded by the golden crown of flowing hair. Guilliman had witnessed glimpses of of his brother's wrath before, but had never seen the true Blood Angel unleashed. Sanguinius surged forward on alabaster wings, half a meter from the floor, whiteness streaming from him like flames.


#8
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FYI about the pinks becoming blues becoming little dudes:

Hidden Content


Reading that over, tri-locking the unit could be quite the viable tactic.

Call me Indy. It's less syllables.

 

 

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#9
Blackcadian

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T3 4++ still die like guard in carapace armour to boltguns. Weight of fire will win the day.

Maybe try deepstriking 2 units at the same time on either side, so no matter which side of the unit he removes casualties from, he exposes the characters to one of your shooting units.

Tac squad in a TLAC Razorback?

T3 3++ (stratagem) and 5 or 6+++ (can’t remember) however don’t :/

Plus there’s this whole “1 pink is killed, splits up into 2 blues, which then are removed before another pink goes down” -issue.

Not saying I disagree that weight of fire is what’s needed, but that’s quite a lot of dice. Stupid horrors -.-

In you example above did you include the fact that the pinks split into blues which split into Brimstones, so lots of ablative wounds before another pink is removed? Or doesn’t it work this way regarding wound allocation?

That is a good question, I am not completely sure how wound allocation works in this case. To be honest, I primarily relied on morale to finish the unit off since models that flee do not split. This worked fine until he rolled a 1 and instead of lots of fleeing models, he regenerated D6 Pink horrors. censored.gif
Yeah that rule makes it even harder! Last game my opponent rolled like 3 1s for his leadership checks with them 🤦🏻‍♂️

Which honestly isn’t even super lucky over the course of a game, but really hurts -.-

FYI about the pinks becoming blues becoming little dudes:

Hidden Content


Reading that over, tri-locking the unit could be quite the viable tactic.


Hmmm thanks for the quote. I’m not sure how much that’d help as my opponent likes to field them in a long line to maximize board control. I’ll keep it in mind though!

Edited by Blackcadian, 09 August 2018 - 11:50 AM.


#10
Brother Crimson

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I’m not sure melee is the best, even with DC.

1- with summoning points he can split many times than pile in for mass S3-5 attacks.
2- Overwatch, that still 90 shots hitting on 6 but rerollig 1 most of the cases.
3- Tzeentch loci can sometimes screw you up.
4- if you assault them prepare to eat up a bunch of demon princes/smites/ weight of fire. The assaulting unit won’t survive.

Assault cannons razorbacks really chew through them, like aggressors. Both of them are only wounded on 5+ unless the get both herald and boon to give S5.

#11
Karhedronuk

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1. If he is using summoning points then that is a bunch of points not starting on the table. If he is going for this approach, concentrate as much firepower/melee on the unit as possible and try to wipe it out with morale since casualties lost to morale can't be split.

2. 90 overwatch shots is nasty. If you can get Captain Smash to charge first, he can negate the overwatch.

3. Tzeentch screws everyone up but also melts like a chocolate teapot. Don't try and dance around as the army will be better at it than you. Sometimes you just have to grit your teeth and dive in hoping that you will weather the melee better than they do.

4. Yes, there will probably be a counter-attack element but the unit under discussion is 300 points and that does not include reinforcement points for splitting or the various characters that are used to support it. Smite is a fairly expensive way to kill DC and at least they will get their 6+++ save. DC are not intended to survive, they are meant to tear the heart out of the enemy army, hopefully allowing the rest of your forces to mop up the left-overs.

AC Razorbacks are good and dakka Stormravens and/or Stormtalons are even better. -1 to Hit will definitely hurt BS4+ horrors.

Sanguinius stood up, stretching his wings to their full extent. He flexed his hands. "I need no blade".
It was as though Sanguinius gleamed with pale light, his face white, eyes becoming blood-red, surrounded by the golden crown of flowing hair. Guilliman had witnessed glimpses of of his brother's wrath before, but had never seen the true Blood Angel unleashed. Sanguinius surged forward on alabaster wings, half a meter from the floor, whiteness streaming from him like flames.


#12
Brother Crimson

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^ yeah forgot dakka ravens.

Also forgot, one of the best unit against horrors is unfortunately Space Marine only and not BA. The Thunderfire Cannon making then move half speed. Then you open them up with long range gunline.

#13
antique_nova

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Commanders!

 

Once again I beseech your aid!

 

My foul gaming buddy favors cut-throat lists (Eldar Dark Reapers in a bastion for instance) and his last vile creation has proven too strong to overcome for me.

 

It consists of 30 Pink Horros buffed by a selection of characters, with some cheap chaff units thrown in for good measure. For those unfamiliar with the concept, the Horrors have a 18" shooting attack that gets buffed by them being a unit of more than 20, I think it goes up to 2 or 3 shots each with S5. They also get a 4+ (?) invul that can be increased to a 3++ with a stratagem, and to top it off they get a 5+++ thanks to another buff char. All quite annoying as you can imagine.

 

 

I checked the whole of the Thousand Sons, Chaos Daemons and Chaos Space Marine codexes and this looks illegal to me, because the 5+++ suggests a FNP rule, which nothing in the tzeentch library of spells actually offers.

 

They could however cast glamour of Tzeentch, which means that anything shooting that unit suffers a -1 to ALL HIT ROLLS.

 

There is also no stratagem that increases a unit's invul save by 1 in any Chaos codex. There is only one spell and it's a Thousand Son's specific spell called, 'Weaver of Fates'.

 

The +++5 you may be referring to can only be either disgustingly resilient (obvious not for horrors) or a Slannesh psychic power called 'Delightful Agonies', but that's only for Slannesh units. There is also no character in the 40k universe who has an aura or a buff that grants a +++5 FNP.

 

Correct me If I'm wrong, but you may want to check your mate's codexes and study up on EVERY codex, because I fail to see how he could have mixed up the rules here.

 

Eldar Dark Reapers in a bastion aren't as hard to deal with as people think. As many have said, you can just use Death Company. Specifically, a death company captain with angel's wings and a thunder hammer and storm shield, because that's really hard to castle up against as opposed to a death company squad. Chances are, you'll get a first turn charge, no problem in most cases and with the [RELIC] ANGEL'S WINGS, he can't overwatch you. You can also use mephiston and zip across the board and have a few scout squads with heavy bolters and [STRATAGEM] HELLFIRE ROUNDS.

 

Or you can simply charge [you can't overwatch me captain] and then send in a unit of basic jump pack death company right after them. That should chew through the unit of horrors no problem. You may very well lose that unit of 10 death company, but that's a small price to pay (and 10 points cheaper than a unit of 30 horrors) to take them out. Your captain will also most likely survive and be within range to threaten his sorcerers.

 

However, if you're going to rely on using just BA, I cannot see you winning against him at all, because the difference between him an you (I'm only guessing and maybe totally wrong) is that he's willing to do and use anything he can get his hands on, while you're severely limiting yourself to the point where it hurts you more than it helps you.

 

However, his tactic seems to rely on getting first turn (never a good idea) and if he deploys his horrors out of range, then that's going to hurt him a lot, but I guess he'll cast warptime on them and successfully.

 

Oh and could you post up the guy's list, because I have a list myself (Tzeentch and Chaos), but no horrors and I'm curious about how his stacks up against mine.


Edited by antique_nova, 09 August 2018 - 03:40 PM.

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#14
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FYI about the pinks becoming blues becoming little dudes:

Hidden Content


Reading that over, tri-locking the unit could be quite the viable tactic.


Hmmm thanks for the quote. I’m not sure how much that’d help as my opponent likes to field them in a long line to maximize board control. I’ll keep it in mind though!

 

 

Get creative and dogpile multiple units onto the Horrors. Remember, even if he spends the reinforcement points, he can't put reinforcements within 1" of an enemy unit. Use that long line to your advantage!

 

My worse-than-a-4-year-old attempt to illustrate what I mean:

 

 

h = horrors

CS = Captain Smash

A = Ancient

D = Death Company

T= Tacticals

S = Scouts

RRRR= Rhino chasis,, with direction of facing (i.e. RRRR = horizontal while R would be vertical, etc...)

. = space of 1"                                                                                               R

                                                                                                                      R

                                                                                                                      R

 

 

D..D..D..D..D..D..D..D..D..D..D..D..D..D..D...CS...A

h..h..h..h..h..h..h..h..h..h..h..h..h..h..h..h..h..h..h..h..

RRRR...T..T..T..T..T...T..T..T..T..T...RRRR...S..S..S..S..S..

 

 

 

Hopefully that makes sense, but the point I'm trying to illustrate is that if you dogpile multiple units onto an enemy blob unit, and very careful about the space between your models and units, then you can deny him any 1" spaces for the Split rule to take effect.

 

Now, granted, if you are committing this many of your units to finish off a single unit, then what the heck is going on with the rest of the board? By sheer logistics and math committing this many of your units (and points) to finish off one enemy unit means you should kill it even with just shooting. Yes, it could be a bit much to dedicate that much of your own force to what could be a Distraction Carnifex of sorts, but if he is relying on such a unit to really gum up your works...then deny him that. Take it out early and often with completing and overwhelming destructive wrath. My point is to be creative with how you deal with it.

 

You don't always need to have a 1:1 unit that magically deals with an enemy unit. I feel like so often we all search for the paper to someone else's rock rather then finding new or creative ways of deploying our own rock (or even scissors). So what I am going with is, one option on the table for you would be to use a tactic such as tri-locking to help neutralize such a pesky enemy unit.

 

Make sense?


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#15
antique_nova

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FYI about the pinks becoming blues becoming little dudes:

Hidden Content


Reading that over, tri-locking the unit could be quite the viable tactic.


Hmmm thanks for the quote. I’m not sure how much that’d help as my opponent likes to field them in a long line to maximize board control. I’ll keep it in mind though!

 

 

Get creative and dogpile multiple units onto the Horrors. Remember, even if he spends the reinforcement points, he can't put reinforcements within 1" of an enemy unit. Use that long line to your advantage!

 

My worse-than-a-4-year-old attempt to illustrate what I mean:

 

 

h = horrors

CS = Captain Smash

A = Ancient

D = Death Company

T= Tacticals

S = Scouts

RRRR= Rhino chasis,, with direction of facing (i.e. RRRR = horizontal while R would be vertical, etc...)

. = space of 1"                                                                                               R

                                                                                                                      R

                                                                                                                      R

 

 

D..D..D..D..D..D..D..D..D..D..D..D..D..D..D...CS...A

h..h..h..h..h..h..h..h..h..h..h..h..h..h..h..h..h..h..h..h..

RRRR...T..T..T..T..T...T..T..T..T..T...RRRR...S..S..S..S..S..

 

 

 

Hopefully that makes sense, but the point I'm trying to illustrate is that if you dogpile multiple units onto an enemy blob unit, and very careful about the space between your models and units, then you can deny him any 1" spaces for the Split rule to take effect.

 

Now, granted, if you are committing this many of your units to finish off a single unit, then what the heck is going on with the rest of the board? By sheer logistics and math committing this many of your units (and points) to finish off one enemy unit means you should kill it even with just shooting. Yes, it could be a bit much to dedicate that much of your own force to what could be a Distraction Carnifex of sorts, but if he is relying on such a unit to really gum up your works...then deny him that. Take it out early and often with completing and overwhelming destructive wrath. My point is to be creative with how you deal with it.

 

You don't always need to have a 1:1 unit that magically deals with an enemy unit. I feel like so often we all search for the paper to someone else's rock rather then finding new or creative ways of deploying our own rock (or even scissors). So what I am going with is, one option on the table for you would be to use a tactic such as tri-locking to help neutralize such a pesky enemy unit.

 

Make sense?

 

You can use paint. I always use the paint program as it's much easier and just about as fast and much more visually understandable.

 

And another thing, your tactic will get blown to bits, before you can execute it, because it takes too long and you're trying to spend too many points to take out what is effectively a 210 pt unit of 30 horrors. That will go horribly wrong if you're playing 1500+ pt games.


Edited by antique_nova, 09 August 2018 - 04:40 PM.

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#16
Shaezus

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^ yeah forgot dakka ravens.

Also forgot, one of the best unit against horrors is unfortunately Space Marine only and not BA. The Thunderfire Cannon making then move half speed. Then you open them up with long range gunline.


This still hurts me...I even went and bought the TFC model, then slowly the truth dawned. Such an awesome, awesome strat that I - almost - made my army BA successors under a codex chapter guise.

Think Donald Sutherland sitting atop a Land Raider Redeemer, speakers blaring out 'Singing in the rain' to the accompaniment of falling drop pods...

 

The difference between us and the Dark Angels? We defeated our demons. 

 

BA.jpg   20.jpg

 

 


#17
antique_nova

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I also calculated that you only need to kill 20 horrors out of a squad of 30 in one turn to kill a squad of 30, because the max leadership horrors can have is 10 (borrowing a lord of change or fateweaver's leadership) and if you kill 20. The unit of horrors already automatically loses 10 more models, because their leadership score will be 20 + D6. So there would be no point in rolling a dice for leadership anyway.


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#18
brother_b

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I also calculated that you only need to kill 20 horrors out of a squad of 30 in one turn to kill a squad of 30, because the max leadership horrors can have is 10 (borrowing a lord of change or fateweaver's leadership) and if you kill 20. The unit of horrors already automatically loses 10 more models, because their leadership score will be 20 + D6. So there would be no point in rolling a dice for leadership anyway.


Unless he rolls a 1 in which case more demons appear
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#19
antique_nova

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I also calculated that you only need to kill 20 horrors out of a squad of 30 in one turn to kill a squad of 30, because the max leadership horrors can have is 10 (borrowing a lord of change or fateweaver's leadership) and if you kill 20. The unit of horrors already automatically loses 10 more models, because their leadership score will be 20 + D6. So there would be no point in rolling a dice for leadership anyway.


Unless he rolls a 1 in which case more demons appear

 

Then there's a simple solution to that. 

 

Give him a loaded dice that never lands on a 1! biggrin.pngtongue.png

 

And when he rolls a one, quickly point to a bird flying nearby (throw a plastic turkey board from the dollar store if you have to) and quickly chance the 1 to a 6 before they see it!

 

There. Warp shenanigans solved!


Edited by antique_nova, 09 August 2018 - 09:35 PM.

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#20
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I also calculated that you only need to kill 20 horrors out of a squad of 30 in one turn to kill a squad of 30, because the max leadership horrors can have is 10 (borrowing a lord of change or fateweaver's leadership) and if you kill 20. The unit of horrors already automatically loses 10 more models, because their leadership score will be 20 + D6. So there would be no point in rolling a dice for leadership anyway.

Unless he rolls a 1 in which case more demons appear
 
Then there's a simple solution to that. 
 
Give him a loaded dice that never lands on a 1! biggrin.pngtongue.png
 
And when he rolls a one, quickly point to a bird flying nearby (throw a plastic turkey board from the dollar store if you have to) and quickly chance the 1 to a 6 before they see it!
 
There. Warp shenanigans solved!
 

This is so true. For whatever reason my opponents have rolled a 1 for demons 2-3 times over recent games. Maybe I'm just a conduit for the warp? Don't let the =][= know!

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#21
Paladin777

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Commanders!

Once again I beseech your aid!

My foul gaming buddy favors cut-throat lists (Eldar Dark Reapers in a bastion for instance) and his last vile creation has proven too strong to overcome for me.

It consists of 30 Pink Horros buffed by a selection of characters, with some cheap chaff units thrown in for good measure. For those unfamiliar with the concept, the Horrors have a 18" shooting attack that gets buffed by them being a unit of more than 20, I think it goes up to 2 or 3 shots each with S5. They also get a 4+ (?) invul that can be increased to a 3++ with a stratagem, and to top it off they get a 5+++ thanks to another buff char. All quite annoying as you can imagine.


I checked the whole of the Thousand Sons, Chaos Daemons and Chaos Space Marine codexes and this looks illegal to me, because the 5+++ suggests a FNP rule, which nothing in the tzeentch library of spells actually offers.

They could however cast glamour of Tzeentch, which means that anything shooting that unit suffers a -1 to ALL HIT ROLLS.

There is also no stratagem that increases a unit's invul save by 1 in any Chaos codex. There is only one spell and it's a Thousand Son's specific spell called, 'Weaver of Fates'.

The +++5 you may be referring to can only be either disgustingly resilient (obvious not for horrors) or a Slannesh psychic power called 'Delightful Agonies', but that's only for Slannesh units. There is also no character in the 40k universe who has an aura or a buff that grants a +++5 FNP.

Correct me If I'm wrong, but you may want to check your mate's codexes and study up on EVERY codex, because I fail to see how he could have mixed up the rules here.

Spoiler

The changeling give all tzeentch deamons within 9” (I think) a 6+++

#22
antique_nova

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Commanders!

Once again I beseech your aid!

My foul gaming buddy favors cut-throat lists (Eldar Dark Reapers in a bastion for instance) and his last vile creation has proven too strong to overcome for me.

It consists of 30 Pink Horros buffed by a selection of characters, with some cheap chaff units thrown in for good measure. For those unfamiliar with the concept, the Horrors have a 18" shooting attack that gets buffed by them being a unit of more than 20, I think it goes up to 2 or 3 shots each with S5. They also get a 4+ (?) invul that can be increased to a 3++ with a stratagem, and to top it off they get a 5+++ thanks to another buff char. All quite annoying as you can imagine.


I checked the whole of the Thousand Sons, Chaos Daemons and Chaos Space Marine codexes and this looks illegal to me, because the 5+++ suggests a FNP rule, which nothing in the tzeentch library of spells actually offers.

They could however cast glamour of Tzeentch, which means that anything shooting that unit suffers a -1 to ALL HIT ROLLS.

There is also no stratagem that increases a unit's invul save by 1 in any Chaos codex. There is only one spell and it's a Thousand Son's specific spell called, 'Weaver of Fates'.

The +++5 you may be referring to can only be either disgustingly resilient (obvious not for horrors) or a Slannesh psychic power called 'Delightful Agonies', but that's only for Slannesh units. There is also no character in the 40k universe who has an aura or a buff that grants a +++5 FNP.

Correct me If I'm wrong, but you may want to check your mate's codexes and study up on EVERY codex, because I fail to see how he could have mixed up the rules here.

Spoiler

The changeling give all tzeentch deamons within 9” (I think) a 6+++

 

 

You're right I missed that, but in all honestly, a 6+++ doesn't mean much. However, I did have an Eldar army that spanked me, because all they keep rolling was 6s for their spirit stones... for 50% of all spirit stone rolls and there was a lot. I checked the guys dice and they weren't loaded. It was one of those biggest censored.gif moments ever in gaming for me.

 

You should never rely on anything that relies on 6s. Unless it's a bonus on top of a primary reason, then that's okay, but the changling really isn't worth taking.


Edited by antique_nova, 09 August 2018 - 10:14 PM.

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#23
Paladin777

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Typically I agree that a 6+++ isn’t much, but when the way to deal with such a unit is weight of fire they really add up.

#24
antique_nova

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Yes, but for a unit of 30. That means out of 30 wounds you failed to save, you only save 5 horrors. That is not worth spending almost 100 pts on the changeling to save 5 horrors for a 16% chance to roll a 1 and not let the unit die off due to it's failed morale test.

 

This is a little off topic, but I found that a unit of 34 cultists in cover who are fearless with an iron warrior warlord nearby and have been buffed with a +5 FNP from a slannesh power actually has a better chance of surviving the full firepower from 39 eldar windriders, a wave serpeant and 2 skyrunner autarchs compared to a fully buffed up 30 gibberish horror unit. And to top it all off, that cultist unit can be brought back for just 2 CPs. So 2 surviving cultists become 34 again. I'd rather spend 140 or so points on that, than 210 points on a unit of 30 horrors. This is assuming that you get first turn with the chaos cultists or horrors. It's no contest

 

Because if the opponent gets first turn with part of the eldar army I described, then neither unit survives. Because those windriders can all move and advance 22 per turn with their 12" guns, giving them a 34" first turn threat range. That will be hard to deploy away from.

 

However, I'm not curious as to why blood angels can't spam storm bolters, because that fits their profile of close quarters combat.


Edited by antique_nova, 09 August 2018 - 10:36 PM.

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#25
Blackcadian

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Commanders!
 
Once again I beseech your aid!
 
My foul gaming buddy favors cut-throat lists (Eldar Dark Reapers in a bastion for instance) and his last vile creation has proven too strong to overcome for me.
 
It consists of 30 Pink Horros buffed by a selection of characters, with some cheap chaff units thrown in for good measure. For those unfamiliar with the concept, the Horrors have a 18" shooting attack that gets buffed by them being a unit of more than 20, I think it goes up to 2 or 3 shots each with S5. They also get a 4+ (?) invul that can be increased to a 3++ with a stratagem, and to top it off they get a 5+++ thanks to another buff char. All quite annoying as you can imagine.

 
I checked the whole of the Thousand Sons, Chaos Daemons and Chaos Space Marine codexes and this looks illegal to me, because the 5+++ suggests a FNP rule, which nothing in the tzeentch library of spells actually offers.
 
They could however cast glamour of Tzeentch, which means that anything shooting that unit suffers a -1 to ALL HIT ROLLS.
 
There is also no stratagem that increases a unit's invul save by 1 in any Chaos codex. There is only one spell and it's a Thousand Son's specific spell called, 'Weaver of Fates'.
 
The +++5 you may be referring to can only be either disgustingly resilient (obvious not for horrors) or a Slannesh psychic power called 'Delightful Agonies', but that's only for Slannesh units. There is also no character in the 40k universe who has an aura or a buff that grants a +++5 FNP.
 
Correct me If I'm wrong, but you may want to check your mate's codexes and study up on EVERY codex, because I fail to see how he could have mixed up the rules here.
 
Eldar Dark Reapers in a bastion aren't as hard to deal with as people think. As many have said, you can just use Death Company. Specifically, a death company captain with angel's wings and a thunder hammer and storm shield, because that's really hard to castle up against as opposed to a death company squad. Chances are, you'll get a first turn charge, no problem in most cases and with the [RELIC] ANGEL'S WINGS, he can't overwatch you. You can also use mephiston and zip across the board and have a few scout squads with heavy bolters and [STRATAGEM] HELLFIRE ROUNDS.
 
Or you can simply charge [you can't overwatch me captain] and then send in a unit of basic jump pack death company right after them. That should chew through the unit of horrors no problem. You may very well lose that unit of 10 death company, but that's a small price to pay (and 10 points cheaper than a unit of 30 horrors) to take them out. Your captain will also most likely survive and be within range to threaten his sorcerers.
 
However, if you're going to rely on using just BA, I cannot see you winning against him at all, because the difference between him an you (I'm only guessing and maybe totally wrong) is that he's willing to do and use anything he can get his hands on, while you're severely limiting yourself to the point where it hurts you more than it helps you.
 
However, his tactic seems to rely on getting first turn (never a good idea) and if he deploys his horrors out of range, then that's going to hurt him a lot, but I guess he'll cast warptime on them and successfully.
 
Oh and could you post up the guy's list, because I have a list myself (Tzeentch and Chaos), but no horrors and I'm curious about how his stacks up against mine.

Thanks for your replies Nova!

So I see the FnP has already been cleared up already, being a 6+++ and not a 5+++ as I mistakenly remembered. Must have been traumatized^^

The +1 invul stratagem was called Warp Wave I think – 2 CP for one phase.

Regarding the Dark Reaper bastion I’m not sure how Death Company and Captain Smush would help initially? Even if the bastion isn’t screened I’ll still have to tear it down before getting to the juicy contents. In our last game I managed to get that done by turn 2, but then the Reapers were still very much alive and dishing out hurt. And my DC wasn’t able to land anywhere close enough to them (plus they get shot by with the intercept stratagem). However, I think I’ve found a solution to that at least – enter my newly purchased Knight Castellan! I’m fairly certain that this little bugger should be able to reduce this fortification to dust and rubble in one round of average shooting with either the House Raven Stratagem or the Krast WL Trait and Relic.

Which brings me to my next point – when playing this particular opponent I’m more than willing to bring out the filthy stuff myself. I’m not going to go out and buy 3 shield captains or Celestine, but I’m gonna soup it up for sure. Here’s my current plan:

Captain Smush
Mephiston
Lemartes
3x 5 Sniper Scouts
14 Death Co, 2 hammers

Guard CP Battery

Knight Castellan

Yes, the Castellan isn’t optimal again PH spam, but then again, maybe he’ll bring Magnus or Mechdar/his bastion. And then he should really shine. Plus, Oathbreaker Guidance Systems + the 15 Scouts should hopefully delete a character per turn.

I also have a WW Scorpius, a Sicaran and a Culexus lying around if that helps, and could proxy most things bar flyers, so Aggressors would be a possibility. 2 AC Razorbacks are in my collection, too. Not sure any of that would be better than what I’m currently planning though?


As to his list, the game is some weeks old, but as best as I can remember it was:

Ahriman and 2 Sorcs

Demon Prince
Sorc
3x10 Cultists

Changeling
?
30 Horrors
3x10 Brimstones

+ Points for reinforcements

1500 pts




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