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Getting started in 8th


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#1
Burni

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I made this post in 'new members' 'Let's try this again...' (I'm not new but I am to playing as I've always been a collector and background junkie only).

 

The ever friendly and helpful WarriorFish suggested I ask my questions in Amicus, so here I am smile.png

 

Thanks to ETL I’m currently at 1100pts with my AdMech. Here’s the army as It stands:

 

Adeptus Mechanicus Army 20180807
  • Adeptus Mechanicus Army 20180807 
  • Tech Priest Dominus
  • Enginseer
  • 10 Rangers with 3 Arquebus
  • 20 Vanguard with 3 Plasma Culverin
  • 2 Kastelan (shooty)
  • 1 Cybersmith
  • 5 Sicarian Infiltrators with fletchette & tasers
  • 2 Armiger Warglavies
  • 1 Onager Dunecrawler (magnetised)
I come to you in my odd position of being a total noob player / grumpy old background greybeard (see the above thread if you want to know more about that!), to help me ensure I properly join the community once and for all.
 
I should say that I’m looking to be a more casual, beer & pretzel, narrative style player. I’m not terribly competitive and don’t believe I’d ever want to play tournaments but I’d love to do the campaign weekend style stuff.
 
I’m looking for any tips or advice you might have. What do you wish you’d have known before you began? I will also add that I’ve never really played anything strategic or tactical, no strategy PC games and not even chess. Which makes me more of a beginner!
 
I also have a few questions: 
  1. Does anyone actually use PL? They sound great to me but the impression I get is that no one uses them
  2. How about 3 ways to play - is it really just match play?
  3. Any polite etiquette for pick up games I should be aware of?
  4. Should I start with Kill Team? I’ve got the box but not read the rules yet.
  5. Any rules you’d consider ‘advanced’ that should be ignored for now? Command points? Sub faction special rules?
There’s now a really good FLGS in Liverpool and I’ve been buying from them and chatting with the staff. They do free ‘40k learn to play sessions’ spread over 4 Sundays and I was thinking of going along. I’m in that position of knowing enough about the rules to be dangerous but not enough to playing properly so I though starting at square one might be a good idea. What do people think?
 
I also wanted to ask about my next purchases. Based on the above list, what do you think is missing from the force. What would I have a hard time facing? I thinking pretty generalist here and I’m not looking to win every game, just not be stomped (ignoring experience/skill differences of course).
 
(Sorry if the above seems a bit oddly written, it's quickly adapted from my original post)
 
Thanks for an advice, in advance.


#2
WarriorFish

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You have a good core to your army, so that's plenty for some smaller introductory game. A 500pt list (or equivalent in PL, to make it easier to make) against an opponent willing to coach you with the rules and tactics would be the best start. Your local store would be a good place to start here, along with the learn to play sessions which sound like a great intro.

 

Etiquette for pick up games is exactly as it would be for any other (i.e. sportsmanship), the addition being the blank slate you start with necessitating a discussion on what you're both looking for in the game. As an extreme example; someone looking to test their tourney list is not the opponent you're after and vice versa! These few minutes prior to agreeing to a game will save you both a lot of time (and more) if you're after different games so is always a good idea smile.png

 

I would consider the basic rules those in the rulebook core e.g; movement, shooting and combat etc. Advanced rules would be the various special rules that feature in codices i.e. specific to fewer units etc. It's a somewhat arbitrary divide, but to get going and test the game out all you need is the core rules and unit/weapon stats you can expand into warlord traits, relics, army traits etc once you're happy with the foundations for example.

 

8th is fairly streamlined so I wouldn't worry too much about the learning curve, I expect you'll be moving on to the "full" rules sooner than you may think as that's where a lot of the depth and character is to an army. The most important thing is experience and there's only one way to get that msn-wink.gif Good luck!


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#3
MARK0SIAN

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The thing I wish I’d known or realised at the start of 8th edition is just how quickly most things can die. As you’re not coming from previous editions it might not effect you as much but I very quickly learnt that units that used to be reasonably durable now die quite easily. With that in mind, it’s key to have redundancies in your lists.

For your other questions I’ll give you my opinions but they’re just that, my opinions, other people may have completely different takes on them so take them with a pinch of salt :)

1) Myself and the people I play with almost never ever use Power levels. We’ve found that they don’t lead to a particularly brilliantly balanced match. They tend to favour armies that have access to lots of upgrades because they essentially get those upgrades for free whereas armies without upgrades tend to suffer a bit.

2) I’ve never played open play and I’ve never seen anyone play it either. We always tend to play matched play because we like the games to be as balanced as possible. If we do use elements of narrative it is usually by borrowing the narrative bits and adding them to a matched play game. Pick up games are usually matched play because it’s easier to just get on with a game.

3) As Warrior Fish said, just good sportsmanship and discussing what you’re hoping for out of the game with your opponent before you start.

4) Kill Team is good but I would just start straight away with normal 8th edition. They’re pretty similar anyway and I wouldn’t say Kill team is an easier introduction to the game when it comes to the rules. It’s easier because of the model count etc but you’ve already got that covered.

5) Just go straight in. To start with I would reccomend using the Eternal War missions as opposed to the Maelstrom ones as they’re a bit more straightforward whilst you get the hang of it all but other than that I wouldn’t worry about leaving other rules out.

Hope this helps, like I said though, they’re just my opinions so other people might advise differently :)

Edited by MARK0SIAN, 08 August 2018 - 01:43 PM.


#4
Ishagu

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Hey. Getting started in 8th is easy. I'll begin by answering your questions.

1: No one really plays power levels beyond the most friendly, educational games. They are used in large Apocalypse style games, however.
2: Match play is the most popular because it's the most regimented and balance, but that's not to say all lists are equal. It's important for opponents to discuss their lists to create fun and balanced match ups outside of tournament practice and play.
3: It's important that players have fun. Don't question rules needlessly, don't take too long in your turns, don't try to cheat through dice or movements, be forgiving of mistakes that don't impact the course of the game - it's a very manual game and all players make them.
4: Kill team is fun, and although it has similarities to 40k it's definitely not the same game. It's good for first play due to the small model numbers but you ca also play small games or regular 40k which have less rules and detail.
5: No rules are too advanced. Command Points and faction abilities add a lot of fun. I'd stick to single factions to start off with however.

Based on what you have, I'd probably buy two more Kastellan robots (possibly equipped with fists) and maybe add Belasarius Cawl to the list? Also, I'd equip the Onanger with the Neutron Laser and Heavy Stubber? Also, you could go for a big Imperial Knight like the Castellan.

Edited by Ishagu, 08 August 2018 - 02:00 PM.

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#5
Apologist

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8th is considerably easier to get started than previous editions; which is great for players like me, and yourself, with a desire for more relaxed, narrative-led and immersive gaming.

 

Looking as Ishagu's post above, I've got a very different set of answers to your questions – which I think probably goes to show how versatile the ruleset is.

 

1: Our group almost exclusively uses power levels for all our 40k gaming. We find it quick and simple, and much more supportive of model-led gaming*. 

2: In contrast to Ishagu, I've only seen Matched Play used in tournaments or at gaming stores. Narrative gaming is more common in my local area and with my usual gaming group (a bunch of old uni friends); though we freely dip into and out of bits from Matched Play we like (missions etc.) Open Play is rarer, in my experience, but perfect if you're playing with younger relatives (or indulgent non-gamer friends!)

3: Beyond having an army list and a pre-game chat about expectations (as MARK0SIAN says) and potentially any houserules you want to use; I don't think 8th ed. 40k requires much beyond basic social etiquette. It's a flexible, permissive ruleset that, in my experience, doesn't have the 'gritty edges' of previous versions.

4: Not having played Kill Team, I couldn't advise on that. From the army picture you've got above, I think you could happily play either Kill Team or standard 40k.

5: No, I agree with Ishagu – the game is very streamlined, and things like Command Points are fun additions that add a surprising amount of depth to the system.

 

Best of luck, and enjoy!

 

* By which I mean simply that Power Levels allow for immersive WYSIWYG games, rather than awkward 'counts-as' if the model's wargear is not points-perfect.


Edited by Apologist, 08 August 2018 - 02:18 PM.

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#6
Ishagu

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I find that power levels lead to more non WYSIWYG as suddenly every model has a combi plasma or grav cannon, apparently lol

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#7
Rogue

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I’ve used both points and power in 8th, both in matched play.

Points against my long-term opponent - we’ve both been playing a long time, know the game, know our armies and find that points leads to well balanced games.

But I have another friend who started in 8th, and we’ve mostly been using power levels. He finds it easier, and neither of us are exploiting the upgrades, as we’re sticking to models and weapons that we have. I already have lots of models and options in hand, so tend to play the same load-outs I’d use in points anyway, and he has the flexibility to modify his units game by game (as he expands his forces) without having to rejig points from somewhere else.

I think that points always ‘works’, whereas power is easier but vulnerable to people getting over-competitive and loading everything for bear - if you’re both on the same page (either way, I guess), then power is fine.
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#8
Apologist

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Yeah, the Points vs Power levels debate is long-running; I just wanted to point out that some groups do use Power level (for better or worse). :)

 

I'll agree that Power levels are the more exploitable of the two methods, but they're certainly the simpler and faster method of working out a force for pick-up games. As Burni says he's 'looking to be a more casual, beer & pretzel, narrative style player. I’m not terribly competitive and don’t believe I’d ever want to play tournaments but I’d love to do the campaign weekend style stuff.', I'd suggest that Power Levels are more suited than Points. His description fits the sort of player in our group, and we find Power much more fun.


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#9
Ishagu

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Thing is, points are not hard to calculate. I'd stay with points as it is, if anything, definitely more balances. New players might not know at a glance what's abusive and what isn't.

Don't think that points is a hardcore method of or that it's harder to do. You have a limited number of models and you won't be changing units every game.

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#10
Burni

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Great stuff. Thanks for all the advice everyone.

 

With the points, I'm aware that I'll be eating into other peoples leisure time with my learning, so I want try and fit in as much as possible. After all it's a generous person who's willing to use their spare time to patiently go through a game with a beginner. So if points are the normal and make things a bit simpler, I'll do that. It was just that the simplicity on PL's appealed.

 

I think I'll leave Kill Team for now - it really looks ideal. But it would effectively be learning 2 rulesets at once.

 

Ishagu; Thanks for the recommendations. Those seem to be (to my unexperienced eye) heavy hitters. I thought I might be light on anti horde type stuff and was good for heavy stuff. Can I ask a little bit more of your time to talk about your picks? What about melee units?



#11
Ishagu

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The Armiger Warglaives are actually decent in Melee, and function as great ditraction units going forward.
I think the CC Kastelans are the best melee units that are purely Mechanicus, although all the various characters are also pretty decent. Cawl is great in a fight but he's great at buffing an army in the shooting phase. One of my friends runs a unit of 4 Kastelans, 2 shooty, 2 with fists and phosphor blasters and he really likes them as the unit is shooty, survivable and can battle if locked up in combat.

Also, you could consider the FW transport vehicle, the drill, for transporting your infantry. Really useful for Mechanicus as you can deliver a unit of guys before they get shot at. It has really great rules and is great with two Twin Volkites for providing additional firepower upon arrival.
https://www.forgewor...ault-Drill-2018

Edited by Ishagu, 08 August 2018 - 03:46 PM.

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#12
Exilyth

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Does anyone actually use PL? They sound great to me but the impression I get is that no one uses them

Around where I live, no one does, because as has been mentioned, all the free upgrades do not make for much balance.
 

How about 3 ways to play - is it really just match play?

Matched play is the most balanced for pick up games.

Locally, we tend to play narrative games on a smaller scale, e.g. warband vs warband using inquisitor/inquisimunda/inq28 rules.
There's also necromunda and kill team for more narative focussed style games nowadays.
For anything larger, we stick to matched play + custom scenarios.
 

Any polite etiquette for pick up games I should be aware of?


Some things which may be obvious, but are good to know:

  • Common point sizes are 500, 750, 1000, 1500, 1750, 2000. Around here, 1500 and 2000 is most common, but this depends on your local meta.
  • Most pick up games use matched play rules with all armies taking part being battleforged.
  • Build your list in advance and bring a written down, readable army list (preferably printed).
  • Bring all codiced/indices required to play the army, e.g. an army of adeptus mechanicus, imperial knights and deathwatch would need codex: adeptus mechanicus, codex: imperial knights and codex: deathwatch.
  • get the FAQs for the rulebook and for your codex from https://www.warhamme...unity.com/faqs/
  • Point out any conversions and other models which do not conform to WYSIWYG (what you see is what you get) and tell your opponent what the units are supposed to be resp. what they're supposed to be equipped with.
  • Thin your paints... erm... I mean, the painting tutorials by warhammer TV on youtube are quite good. yes.gif

Should I start with Kill Team? I’ve got the box but not read the rules yet.

 
All units usable in kill team are usable in normal Warhammer 40k, but different weapons have slightly different usefullness in both systems.
The rules for both systems are very similar, but also very different. With the small game size, kill team is perfect for starting out.
 
The stats and many basic mechanics used are the same.
 
Warhammer 40k requires you to bring a HQ unit and a troops unit at minimum. Players take turns - one player moves, shoots, meeles, then the other and so on. In kill team, you get alternating activations depending on initiative.
 
Kill team has individual infantry models, WH40k has units composed of one (often characters) or multiple models which can also be monsters or vehicles.
Kill team has penalties for hitting models on long range or in cover. This works different in WH40k, where cover gives a bonus to saving throws.
Kill team uses nerve tests, WH40k uses morale.
and so on.
 
Games of 40k at 500 Pts are larger (both points and time wise) than kill team games at 100 Pts.
 

Any rules you’d consider ‘advanced’ that should be ignored for now? Command points? Sub faction special rules?

As long as you agree upon it with the other players involved, you can include/exclude any rules you want.

I would suggest starting with a single faction (per side) and the full rules.

Keeping the points at 500 or 750 at first leads to games which can be finished in one-two hours and limits the complexity somewhat.

 

Do note that two armies trying to table each other play differently than armies trying to accomplish the objectives of a scenario.


Edited by Exilyth, 09 August 2018 - 07:22 PM.

WH40k: Astra Militarum: ~2500Pts, Space Marines: ~1200Pts

KillTeam: AM

and if I had a camera, I'd post some pictures of them.


#13
Burni

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Thanks Exilyth. Some great points in there. Interesting about the printed army list. I’ve got an app, do you think people would mind if I just have that?

#14
Kinstryfe

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I agree with most of the advice above, and I've recently been teaching people both 40k and Kill Team so I have a couple things I'd reiterate or add.

To start, I would try to play a couple small games (500-750pts, or maybe <50 power level). Go into it with an open play attitude for the first. What you really want to take away from the game is being comfortable with the core rules before you add in the more complex stuff. Get used to the hit and wound process, types of movement, types of guns your army uses, making armour saves, and all that basic stuff. If you're really unsure of any of that, I've found two Squads versus two Squads can be fine on a small board just to get it all down.

After that play a game or two of similar size but adding in things like Command Points and Stratagems, special deployments, your canticles, and all the stuff that makes up the other half of the game. I've found the Basic first, then Advanced rules has been working really well with new players.

Beyond that, to your specific questions...
1. Power levels are ok in some cases. My main army is Astra Militarum which is one of the biggest offenders for power level inequity, as an infantry squad can range from 40 to 87 points within the same power level. Power levels tend to work ok for armies that don't have a lot of options in their units, and much worse for armies like Militarum that have lots of options.
2&3. Your local "meta" will kind of determine which ways to play is more common in pick up games. Open play is rarely a success in my experience unless both players are very similarly minded. Matched play is often popular because it's a known quantity in the equation, and two players can show up with an XXXX point list and have a game with minimal fuss. Narrative takes a little more discussion pregame, and some people will love or hate it. I usually say prepare for matched play because it's easy, and if you enjoy narrative try to find people to have crazy fun with.
4. I've played a lot of Kill Team the last two weeks and I LOVE it. However, the rules are very similar to 40k but just different enough that you need to keep things straight between the two. I would learn one before the other so you can keep it separate in your mind. Since you have over a thousand points painted, I'd learn 40k first and revisit KT in a little bit. Bonus: it's currently much easier to find someone who knows 40k forwards and backwards than the brand new ruleset of Kill Team.
5. Kinda said it in my intro, but get a game in with the basic rules, then add on more as you go. Don't expect to get everything right in just a couple games. I still mess something up pretty much constantly :)
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#15
Exilyth

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Mhh... maybe I should change the timeframe for a 500 Pts game to 2-3 hours - always tend to forget how much time was taken looking up rules and arguing about interpretations.

Asking a veteran player if they're willing to watch and answer rules questions can help speed up things.

 

Thanks Exilyth. Some great points in there. Interesting about the printed army list. I’ve got an app, do you think people would mind if I just have that?

As long as people can read it you should be okay.


WH40k: Astra Militarum: ~2500Pts, Space Marines: ~1200Pts

KillTeam: AM

and if I had a camera, I'd post some pictures of them.


#16
Aarik

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I was in your shoes re getting back into the game not too long ago.  I would recommend going with points over power level, as from my experience (though other have had different ones) most people play with points, and it makes it more balanced for a pickup game.  Use Battlescribe to easily calculate the points and have a printable list.  (I can see how people would prefer power level if they had to calculate points themselves.  GW did not make it easy to do with the codexes alone.)

 

For gaming, I would recommend letting the person you are playing against know that you are just getting back into the game and your objective is really to learn.  If you can play someone relatively inexperienced too, then that will make a more balanced game and you can both learn.  And if you are playing a better/tournament player, then you have the opportunity to learn from someone very good.  I think most people like that would be happy to explain why they are doing what they are doing, and how that enables them to beat you.  Don't go into the game looking to win, but looking to learn.

 

One thing that helped me was not really worrying about stratagems during my first couple games.  That let me concentrate on learning and getting solid with the mechanics of the game first and not getting overwhelmed.  Then once you have a few games under your belt, look through your codex and make a list of the stratagems that you (1) can use with the models you have in your army, and (2) you think will be most effective.  Narrowing down the number of stratagems to consider, having an idea of what situation to use them, and having them listed out on a separate piece of paper will make it easier to think of them and use them during the heat of battle.

 

Don't be afraid to take a moment to think about what you are going to do.  And if you have a friendly opponent (which most should be; don't waste your time with someone who is not, or let them discourage you), talk through your strategy with them while you play.  Or at least keep a dialogue of what you are trying to do, e.g. "I'm intending to move these guys out of LOS; do you agree that you can't see them?"  That keeps everyone on the same page and prevents arguments from cropping up later.  Also, don't be afraid to ask questions about the rules!  Even though 8th edition is simpler, there are still some tricky mechanics to learn.  Especially about moving during the assault phase,

 

Once you play some games with your army, you will have a better idea of what you should add next.

 

Also, one thing I did was play in a couple local tournaments.  I didn't win any of my games, but doing so allowed me to get a bunch of games in a short period of time, which helped me learn faster.  I told my opponents up front that I was still learning the game, and they were all super friendly. 

 

Edit: I would also recommend having a printed version of your army list vs. just using an app.  Doing so will allow you to more easily show it to your opponent  (handing them some papers vs. your phone or tablet).  And I found that it's faster to look at paper than use the app, which takes a bit of time to load and navigate through.


Edited by Aarik, 12 August 2018 - 09:27 PM.


#17
Mechanicus_Adept

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I find that power levels lead to more non WYSIWYG as suddenly every model has a combi plasma or grav cannon, apparently lol

 

the group i play with constantly goes with power levels because of one guy that would take forever to build their list if they were using points rule. It takes more time for the player to build the list than play the game. whistling.gif

 

Otherwise, i pretty much agree to your previous post answering the questions.


Edited by Mechanicus_Adept, 12 August 2018 - 10:13 PM.

New edition. New strategies. 8th edition.





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