Medjugorje Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 I'd think the best way GW would test the waters is do a Kill Team box for Templars. That would be hot. I would get that, as Kill Team is my new go-to. A new upgrade sprue that's one Primaris compatible and another which updates the classic. Throw in some Moon Base ruins and special KT tactics and you got yourself a best seller. There will be a Templar special character for Primaris somewhere down the line, mark my words here and now. I also would be pleasantly surprised if they tie in some BT updates with the sisters, since they're lore-ishly more closely affiliated with the ecclesiastical part of the storyline now, what with Helbrecht sending crusades to aid Shrine worlds. I hope so - but I think that its just self - deception. If you look objectivly, then BT got no real love since 2004 I think - thats 14 years. And still not since we were pushed into C:SM ( except a little bit story and meanwhile invalid rules in end of 7th edition just as part with other fractions together) With the announcement and leak of Orks and Speed Freeks.. it kinda lowers the idea of a Black Templars vs Orks Campaign set (Although, if some can remember, The Codex Armageddon did have an entry about Orks and the Speed Freeks) I was riding on the hope that because GW has been on a nostalgia run this year.. that maybe a new "Codex Armageddon" would be an idea. Similar-ish to Tooth and Claw but it would have.. A new Dedicated Primaris Transport vs Redemptor Dreadnought 5 BT Intercessors + 5 New Melee Primaris Vs 5 SW Intercessors + 3 SW Aggressors Primaris Castellan (Lieutenant) +/or Primaris Emperors Champion Vs Space Wolf Battle Leader + New Black Templars Primaris Chapter Upgrades Vs Various Orks and their new upgrades. With this release would be an Index for the Black Templars and also if released in Late October it would be a good way to tease the upcoming Sisters of Battle and Ecclesiarchy* releases in the new year. Oh well.. maybe next year! build new hope... is the start of confusing GW sees on the long term. Just for the example: I believe the release of Saint Celestine was a test for GW to see if a Battle Sisters reboot was worth it. There are a few good arguments on your side. But it could be that the survey really was the point to create new models... and Saint Celestine was just a possibility to integrate a IMPERIUM character into each army ( her rules show that clearly) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark_Jober Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 Black Templars will not receive love, the only reasons could be: -Returning to Armageddon, but now it seems orks are going to invade Vigilus where SW are deployed. -Receiving and index with the release of Sisters of Battle in 2019. The other option is a new SM codex with better rules. BA DA and SW has extra rules, so SM codex seems weak in comparison. They only need to add one rule to each CT to feel interesting and strong. I understand we are not enough famous or maybe we had sales problems in 4thEd. But I m sure we are the worst Chapter comunnity!!! Damn zealots!!! We are so fanatics! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Arthur Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 What about primaris crusader squads with heavy chainswords that have -1 AP, heavy bolt pistols, and the option to take up to two power weapons on regular initiates as well as on the sword brother? Then maybe a primaris drop pod that can carry up to ten primaris models and has better rules than the current drop pod. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal_Roujakis Posted August 18, 2018 Share Posted August 18, 2018 What about primaris crusader squads with heavy chainswords that have -1 AP, heavy bolt pistols, and the option to take up to two power weapons on regular initiates as well as on the sword brother? Then maybe a primaris drop pod that can carry up to ten primaris models and has better rules than the current drop pod. That's like asking GW to make Templars the next Grey Knights/Custodes/Ultramarines... those Pod rules would be really powerful and GW will more than likely make the points cost or power level of those models be so expensive that they won't have the merits of taking them except for fluff reason in thematic games... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Arthur Posted August 18, 2018 Share Posted August 18, 2018 Let me clarify. The pod would be for all marine armies, not just just Templars. The chainswords for Primaris should have always had AP anyways so they would fit the bolt rifles and heavy bolt pistols. The specific rules for a new drop pod are up for debate but there are other threads discussing it so I’ll let that rest, however, I think Primaris pod will come eventually, it’s too iconic of a transport to let it fall by the wayside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medjugorje Posted August 18, 2018 Share Posted August 18, 2018 it could be special created chainswords by the Templar Crusaders... next to Salamanders, Blood angels and Emperors Children, the Imperial Fists legion was known for its technically gifted iconographic weapons and equipment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sea-People Posted August 18, 2018 Share Posted August 18, 2018 Here's a small change that would be fluffy, helpful, and easily implemented in an errata: Add the following to the Crusader Squad Dataslate Furious Indignation: If this unit contains ten or more models, add one to the attack characteristic of every model in the unit. Would encourage large mixed crusader squads and give a reason to take that power weapon on a marine with one measly attack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firepower Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 Here's a small change that would be fluffy, helpful, and easily implemented in an errata: Add the following to the Crusader Squad Dataslate Furious Indignation: If this unit contains ten or more models, add one to the attack characteristic of every model in the unit. Would encourage large mixed crusader squads and give a reason to take that power weapon on a marine with one measly attack. Hmm. The name makes me think more something along the lines of: Roll a dice for each wound a TEMPLAR unit receives. For each 6 rolled, the unit gains +1 Attack. Perhaps for a game turn, or perhaps permanent. Perhaps instead a token for each 6, expended either for unit-wide +1 Attack for 1 combat phase, or one Deny the Witch attempt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spanish Inquisitor Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 Maybe we could have a similar bonus of the Inquisition: reroll one to hit in Close combat against Psykers, heretics and xenos. On a 5+ or 6+, all Black Templars units can deny the witch. The Chaplain can deny the witch as if he was a psyker if he or a friendly BT unit within 3 " is the target of a spell. On 2 CP stratagem, a BT unit gains +1 attack and +1 strength in Close combat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Vespasian Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 I'd really just wish for a primaris Upgrade sprue and the Option to get melee primaris. Maybe a rule Update for better chapter tactics/warlord traits Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark_Jober Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 Maybe we could have a similar bonus of the Inquisition: reroll one to hit in Close combat against Psykers, heretics and xenos. On a 5+ or 6+, all Black Templars units can deny the witch. The Chaplain can deny the witch as if he was a psyker if he or a friendly BT unit within 3 " is the target of a spell. On 2 CP stratagem, a BT unit gains +1 attack and +1 strength in Close combat Really nice ideas, not OP not useless and really BT themed. Maybe when GW releases SoB we could receive some minor adjustments Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Arthur Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 Maybe +1 to wound instead of +1 to strength. It’s a guaranteed buff whereas additional strength doesn’t always help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal_Roujakis Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 Maybe +1 to wound instead of +1 to strength. It’s a guaranteed buff whereas additional strength doesn’t always help. Strength is extremely handy when you're geared especially for melee it enables you're basic Crusaders who are already in melee to wound MEQ with 3+ or if you're dealing with a toughness 8 unit in melee with a Powerfist/Thunder Hammer, it lets you chew through that vehicle easier than praying for a lucky 4+ roll... and it coincides with the theme of Suffer Not The Unclean To Live. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Arthur Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 Sorry, I meant +1 to wound rolls likes the Blood Angels have. That way we still wound MEQs on 3s and would even wound GEQs on 2s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triszin Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 SO I was thinking about this, what could GW do with a max of 2 kits, and minimal updates to add flavour. 2 kits: - updated helbretch - templar upgrade clampack ---Can make emperors champion on a primaris ---or can make saergants ---has a great sword, rosarious, cloth, shoulder pads, 1-2 more bits Primaris "enhancement" a flaw reveals itself for these sons of dorn. - Dorn liked to fortify things, templars are zeal and hate witches. - the flaw is a group of templars "now have a fortified mind, and can seemingly deny the witch rolls", even on allies, acts of faith do not count - a unit of 5 or more Templar's within 6" of an enemy psyker can roll 1 deny the witch roll as if they were a psyker themself. ---templars squads can now do deny the witch, fluffy, and they have to be super close also fluffy - 2 sergeants per unit ( another unique thing for templars ), (sword brethern is a melee squad of sergeants) - templar sergeants, can take a great sword or chainsword and bolt rifle, bolt pistol or plasma pistol, grenades -- have a greatsword be something unique to the templars (x2 str, ads a scythe attack, and ap-2, 2 dam) emperors champion, now also a primaris option can be made from the upgrade kit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Vespasian Posted August 25, 2018 Share Posted August 25, 2018 I was thinking about reivers the other day and thought: man it'd be gereat if we could give them the same options that we can give to crusaders. (Seriously I'm wondering wether deep striking reivers with a smash captain/chapter master and angel of death might be worth it. Some energy weapons on the reivers could actually make that quite strong.) That led me to thinking. GW could do an Index: Astartes. Here they could do rules for non codex compliant chapters in varying detail. They wouldn't really need to do entirely new model, ranges but they could adjust wargear choices and point costs and add or remove some unit choices. They could then release special hqs and upgrade sprues at their leisure and gauge interest from that. This would allow them to give different chapters a set of distinct rules and wargear choices without doing a whole release while still leaving c:sm relevant. Dunno just something I came to think about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark_Jober Posted August 25, 2018 Share Posted August 25, 2018 I think it could be easy to give fluffy options to every Chapter, but I think GW is interested in the opposite... Reading the SW codex it seems they are going to reduce the differences between chapters... And if in the next years all old marine squads and characters will disappear... then most iconic BT points will be vanished... Think about that: with the Primaris process Scout companies will dissapear in the Codex compilant Chapters, Bloodclaws will dissapear in SW... and Neophyte+Initiate stages will be useless... I'm really worried about fluff advances in the next editions/codex/index versions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sea-People Posted August 25, 2018 Share Posted August 25, 2018 I think it could be easy to give fluffy options to every Chapter, but I think GW is interested in the opposite... Reading the SW codex it seems they are going to reduce the differences between chapters... And if in the next years all old marine squads and characters will disappear... then most iconic BT points will be vanished... Think about that: with the Primaris process Scout companies will dissapear in the Codex compilant Chapters, Bloodclaws will dissapear in SW... and Neophyte+Initiate stages will be useless... I'm really worried about fluff advances in the next editions/codex/index versions That assumes that GW doesn't have primaris CQC troops, scouts, terminators, veterans, etc. waiting in the wings to be released. Look at how much stormcast has grown since its original release. Granted, none of those new units would help Black Templars specifically, but I don't think the chapters will be as homogenous as you predict. It's not impossible that the current chapter structure and differences go out the window, I just think its unlikely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark_Jober Posted August 25, 2018 Share Posted August 25, 2018 I think it could be easy to give fluffy options to every Chapter, but I think GW is interested in the opposite... Reading the SW codex it seems they are going to reduce the differences between chapters... And if in the next years all old marine squads and characters will disappear... then most iconic BT points will be vanished... Think about that: with the Primaris process Scout companies will dissapear in the Codex compilant Chapters, Bloodclaws will dissapear in SW... and Neophyte+Initiate stages will be useless... I'm really worried about fluff advances in the next editions/codex/index versions That assumes that GW doesn't have primaris CQC troops, scouts, terminators, veterans, etc. waiting in the wings to be released. Look at how much stormcast has grown since its original release. Granted, none of those new units would help Black Templars specifically, but I don't think the chapters will be as homogenous as you predict. It's not impossible that the current chapter structure and differences go out the window, I just think its unlikely. Yeah, I suppose all the units and roles will be repleaced, but... that is still a malicious movement. Forcing obsolete our collections is simply evil. Squats, Chaos Dwarfs... They could resculpt the models like they did in many many ranges, but forcing that our units will be totally obsolete... In the other hand... I hope that they create a "new" timeline, because there rules and models for Heresy Era (30k), I hope a 40k range for playing with my old marines and 41-42k for playing with new Cawl's heretic creations Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal_Roujakis Posted August 25, 2018 Share Posted August 25, 2018 Yeah, I suppose all the units and roles will be replaced, but... that is still a malicious movement. Forcing obsolete our collections is simply evil. Squats, Chaos Dwarfs... They could resculpt the models like they did in many many ranges, but forcing that our units will be totally obsolete... In the other hand... I hope that they create a "new" timeline, because there rules and models for Heresy Era (30k), I hope a 40k range for playing with my old marines and 41-42k for playing with new Cawl's heretic creations Obviously this isn't a "The Sky is Falling" Rant... wait that's not a great way to start a post... Anyway, I highly doubt they'd phase out the entire iconic army in one go... first of all, Primaris Space Marines only have 1 Tank/Transport available to them from GW, Land Raiders, Rhinos, Razorbacks, Stormtalons, Stormravens, Venerable Dreadnoughts, Whirlwinds, Predators, Vindicators and all Space Marine vehicles and even some Chaos ones all have an Old Marine in the cupola or, in the case of the Venerable Dreadnought and Hellbrute, in their cockpit and those are a helluva lot of models to replace... the same would need to apply to Sanguinary Guard, Death Company, Death Watch, Thunderwolf Cavalry, Land Speeders and a plethora or other units would need to be absolutely phased out... And that's mostly why this change would be unlikely to happen between the next 5-10 years... maybe beyond that it can happen, but as it stands right now, there are too many Space Marine items on GW shelves and warehouses, it'll be unlike the change from WH:F to AoS because unlike that radical change, the sales and demand for Empire units and Fantasy in general was much lower in comparison to 40k, when that change happened, most players in my local GW were playing 40k, they were picking Space Marines and those that do play Fantasy or had armies of them didn't have Empire and even rarer was those who played Bretonnian Knights... 40k would be a totally different beast in general if they did a massive upheaval such as that, they would lose a massive number of their player base since many people have been playing and collecting Space Marines, and some only have those as their army... To suddenly phase out (this is an estimation...) 80% of your player base mainly due to changing from Old Marines to Primaris would undoubtedly alienate many players, both old and new from the hobby and would definitely destroy GW... I just can't see that happening as even Grey Knights would need to be changed into Primaris, and would cause players to abandon the hobby completely rather than fork out another $300 to several thousand dollars just for an army that GW might phase out... Take into account for example, the Eldar... they changed their name, they changed their lore and they even added new units and miniatures, but the extremely old models are still there since GW cannot afford to lose a fan-base who bought new models for that race since the Eldar became broken once again during 6th and 7th edition... The same applies for Guard (Astra Militarum for the Neophytes here...) they broke Cadia in the lore, they lost majority of their worlds due to the 13th Black Crusade, but Cadian units, Cadian heroes and models are still being used instead of outright squatting them because it would be too expensive and risky for GW to create new flagship models for the Imperial Guard. TLDR - They won't phase out old marines... too expensive and too risky for citadel miniatures... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Callan Posted August 26, 2018 Share Posted August 26, 2018 The biggest issue, obviously, is the weakness of Space Marines in general. No new releases except a major errata is going to fix that. That's number one on my wishlist, and the rumors are that GW is aware and hoping to address the issue. I don't think we're going to see updated or new models for classic Marines for a long time. We need Primaris expanded if they're going to be viable. Classic Marines would be viable on their own, with decent rules, and those plastics aren't the oldest or nastiest models. There are heroes that need updating, but apart from the big centerpieces, those seem to be less of a focus, because we need troops for all factions. Models like the orks, Sisters, etc being old, crusty, and not-plastic is a bigger issue and more urgent. That said, they're not going to 'squat' our classic Marines. This sky-is-falling nonsense is ridiculous. The game has a lot more momentum now than it used to. The days where you could make that sort of change are over. WF died because no one was playing, and no one was buying. That's not true of 40k. Now, much as I'd love a dedicated Black Templars Codex, I don't think it's going to happen. First Founding Chapters get priority, xenos and some Chaos factions still need expanded... we're not high on the list. However, it hasn't escaped my attention that the Imperial Fists have the most prominent (and awesome) successor chapters. There are hints in the Space Wolves Codex that the Wolftime is coming, and we have something sort of similar. Hear me, brothers. Codex: The Last Wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medjugorje Posted August 26, 2018 Share Posted August 26, 2018 I think so too. CODEX The last Wall was prepared a long time ago. Our primarch is not dead, the beast arises shows us new fluff. But I think if this would be true, we are not just a small entry - i think we get a lot of attention then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark_Jober Posted August 26, 2018 Share Posted August 26, 2018 I think so too. CODEX The last Wall was prepared a long time ago. Our primarch is not dead, the beast arises shows us new fluff. But I think if this would be true, we are not just a small entry - i think we get a lot of attention then. I think Codex:Sons of Dorn could be a reality, cause most chapters have strange manners even being codex compilant. Last Wall is something interesting.. but I dont know if that will be real... most Sons of Dorn have been simply reduced to UM in a differebt colour scheme. Many of most famous Chapters fight to be more codex compilant that UM and UM's sucessors... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Tyler Posted August 26, 2018 Share Posted August 26, 2018 ...most Sons of Dorn have been simply reduced to UM in a differebt colour scheme. Many of most famous Chapters fight to be more codex compilant that UM and UM's sucessors... It has been this way since the Rogue Trader era. In 2nd edition, even the Black Templars were a Codex Chapter. The 3rd and 4th edition variations were an anomaly that GW finally reeled in when 6th edition rolled around. What we see now is that, aside from the Blood Angels, Dark Angels, and Space Wolves, Chapters are represented as small variations on a theme. Most are variations on the Ultramarines Codex model (successors of the Blood Angels and Dark Angels follow their respective progenitors). The Imperial Fists, Crimson Fists, Black Templars, et al have more distinctiveness than they had in 1st and 2nd editions. Despite this variation on a theme mentality, the Black Templars retain their stronger and more distinctive variation from the norm, and they are the most distinctive of the non-Big 4. This isn't so much in the rules, which have been toned down significantly since 3rd/4th edition, but in the overall character and attitude of the Chapter. We can expect to see this level of distinctiveness maintained - the end is not nigh. Personally, I would not want to see the Black Templars rolled into a theoretical "Codex Ecclesiarchy" or whatever. The Black Templars are Adeptus Astartes and aside from their (small) differences, they should follow the pattern of the other Adeptus Astartes. They can still work and play well with the Ecclesiarchy without being rolled into that faction's codex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark_Jober Posted August 26, 2018 Share Posted August 26, 2018 ...most Sons of Dorn have been simply reduced to UM in a differebt colour scheme. Many of most famous Chapters fight to be more codex compilant that UM and UM's sucessors...Personally, I would not want to see the Black Templars rolled into a theoretical "Codex Ecclesiarchy" or whatever. The Black Templars are Adeptus Astartes and aside from their (small) differences, they should follow the pattern of the other Adeptus Astartes. They can still work and play well with the Ecclesiarchy without being rolled into that faction's codex. I agree that being rolled into Codex Ecclesiarchy is not the solution. But the changes in our fluff seem we are going to have more relation with them with our new status. So I think our fluff could receive news with that codex and maybe some love. Think about that: why they used BT for Gathering the Storm? Why was a Black Templar crusade who helped to revive Guilliman? That is something I dont understand. And then... why transforming us into true believers of the God-Emperor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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