Chapter Tactics beneficial to Devastators?

[HighMarshalAmp]

In my army, I have noticed a distinct lack of anti-vehicle firepower.

So a few Lascannons and Missile Launchers seem to be in order, but which Chapter should I give them to?

 

I'm torn between UM, IF and RG.

Also, I haven't played many games with notable terrain yet, so idk if the IF Tactics are as useful as they might sound when push comes to to shove.

 

So what say the seasoned veterans?

[Captain Idaho]

I don't condone taking a separate detachment of unrelated faction to take advantage of rules to boost your winning chances.

 

Objectively regarding Chapter Tactics, each of the Chapters give something to Devastator squads, with the exception of White Scars and Black Templars.

 

Ultramarines - if you get tied up by something in close combat you can retreat and still fire, albeit hitting on a 5+ against most targets. Using Scions of Guilliman grants the benefit of a Captain to the squad, but normally Wisdom of the Ancients does this better in a firebase.

 

Imperial Fists - Ignoring cover isn't bad and I'd be hopeful that one day GW will change cover so it's more useful. Their Strategum with Heavy Bolter Devastators is nice to.

 

Raven Guard - a -1 to hit if you're over 12" is easy to get the most out of by a defensive support unit like a Devastator squad. Not much more to say here eh.

 

Salamanders - The big winners of the Codex in my view. Their Chapter Tactic works in every game against every opponent and for every unit using it. Easily the best in the game if you ask me and Devastators will enjoy the rerolls. Totally underrated army.

 

Also, the army isn't reliant on character buffing as much since it gets rerolls anyway, so you strategically spread out and save points on characters too.

 

Iron Hands - They get a 6+ save which can reduce losses in the unit though might be best on multi wound models in general. Marine hordes and the occasional 6 will help though. Probably the weakest of this bunch but over an army not terrible.

 

***

 

Judging from your handle I'd say you're a Black Templars player? If you must have a separate Chapter in your army then go for Imperial Fists since they're successors of that Legion.

[Panzer]

Generally I'd say Raven Guard.

If it's mainly Lascannons then I'd say Raven Guard or Salamanders for the free re-rolls.

If it's mainly stuff with multiple shots and low AP I'd say Raven Guard or Imperial Fists for the ignore cover.

[Medicinal Carrots]

Raven Guard are your best defensive option, Salamanders the best offensive, IMHO. Of note also on Salamanders is that the tactic also boosts the effectiveness of the Flakk and Hellfire stratagems. Ultimately it comes down to what synergizes best with your army as a whole, or just how you enjoy playing most.

[HighMarshalAmp]

I don't condone taking a separate detachment of unrelated faction to take advantage of rules to boost your winning chances.

How about allying two Chapters because painting 1500pts of the same color gets dull after a while?

I'm allowed 3 Detachments at up to 200pts, and if I take those from the same Codex (!), is that taking an unrelated faction?

Were there no instances in the fluff when two Chapters fought side by side?

 

Still, if someone were to call me out and ask for a game with only one Chapter Tactic, I'd go for the Ultramarines out of sheer sentimentality.

Doesn't mean I have to paint all my guys blue now, does it?

 

Also, since I don't have any Salamander Detachments already (as opposed to UM and BT of whom I have a Battalion each or RG who are the parent Chapter of my homebrew Chapter) and am not planning on getting any (as opposed to IF), I'm afraid they don't qualify for me.

[CCE1981]

 

 

I don't condone taking a separate detachment of unrelated faction to take advantage of rules to boost your winning chances.

How about allying two Chapters because painting 1500pts of the same color gets dull after a while?

I'm allowed 3 Detachments at up to 200pts, and if I take those from the same Codex (!), is that taking an unrelated faction?

Were there no instances in the fluff when two Chapters fought side by side?

 

Still, if someone were to call me out and ask for a game with only one Chapter Tactic, I'd go for the Ultramarines out of sheer sentimentality.

Doesn't mean I have to paint all my guys blue now, does it?

 

Also, since I don't have any Salamander Detachments already (as opposed to UM and BT of whom I have a Battalion each or RG who are the parent Chapter of my homebrew Chapter) and am not planning on getting any (as opposed to IF), I'm afraid they don't qualify for me.

IMO take them as a different Company. Paint the squad shoulder pad in the color of the Chapter you are using rules from.

[Captain Idaho]

Choose your Chapter based on what you like the look of or what background material you enjoy, if you find it dull painting an army. Just don't pretend you're doing it for painting though when you come here asking which rules are best though. Ergo I don't condone it.

 

Keeping it in topic, based on what you got available I'd say the Ultramarines will provide you the most varied army.

[HighMarshalAmp]

Just don't pretend you're doing it for painting though when you come here asking which rules are best though.

I don't pretend bleedin' anything and I don't appreciate your implying I wasn't a fair player or - even worse - I was a liar, mate. Now I don't know what kind of tournaments you host, but I have yet to see one where your Detachments have to be drawn from the same Chapter.

 

You're gonna think what you're gonna think in your black-and-white view of me, but still, here's bit of background on me to think about:

I painted my first Marines. I ordered a load of the Kill Team shoulder pads 'cause I couldn't freehand anything if my life depended on it.

So before I placed the order, I had to decide if I was gonna do Templars, Fists or Ultras 'cause those are the only major ones with symmetrical emblems (well, not the IF, but they're not mirrored in that box).

After a while, painting the blue became tedious - it was no longer fun, which, as I understand it, is the point of this game. And instead of doing a successor Chapter with the logo of an existing one (Kill Team box only offers so much), I went for another Chapter altogether and chose the Templars - a Chapter you can find in the same Codex as the Ultramarines, so even a restriction of one Codex per army would be abided by.

And to keep it fluffy, I decided to play them as such, with all their strengths and limitations, and that was back in 7th, so the charge re-rolls the Templars have today were something I hadn't the faintest idea would come along.

It's dumb, it's unneccessary, condone it or not, but it's what I'm doing - putting the looks above the crunch, but that doesn't mean I don't care if my guys are going to do well on the table.

 

So that's what I have and that's what I'm working with. 600pts of UMs all done, 500pts of Templars, 150pts of Templars still to go and 600pts of my Raven Guard Successors who use the laurel and skull from the VV box as their emblem primed and standing by, whom I might put on hold or jusr paint yellow if the urge to get started with an IF army becomes too strong - or if it turns out that they would be the best vehicle hunters out there.

 

And now, I'm not adding ONE additional small time Detachment, but most likely expanding an already existing one that packs a punch on its own already and doesn't rely on the Devastators firepower completely.

 

So when I find something lacking in the current composition of the total of my forces, I have what I have to work with. I mix and match what I have, and it's not much of a pick since usually it's either small games with one Detachment or large ones where I bring all I've got.

Some day, they will all be at full 2000pts strength, they will all have anti-vehicle weaponry and this question will be moot.

They will not be allied anymore any any impact those alliances might have had on my chances will be gone.

But until then, if I see that one kind of Squad is needed, the question of which Chapter to add it to so they perform the best they can for the time being is one I stand by.

And I do not pretend otherwise.

 

If somebody who played Dark Angels exclusively asked which unit to add to his army, would you imply his playstyle was something to be frowned upon?

If somebody described his playstyle and asked what army would fit him best, that would certainly maximize his chances of winning, but is there something wrong with that as well?

Oh, and have I ever said what the equipment of my other Chapters was? Do you know for a fact that I have equipped them to make the best use of their current Chapter Tactics as well? Even the ones I've glued together in 7th edition?

 

So do what you will, mock me, scold me, ban me, but don't act like I pick Allied Detachment by Allied Detachment to get some kind of invincible soup.

[Captain Idaho]

It's not a personal attack. Play the hobby how you like. I've said my piece on what I think of mixing and matching for a counter opinion, you have your position let's leave it at that.

 

You know, in the current environment of 40K can you really blame me for thinking the worse when cheddar soup is so common? Your first post didn't do much to explain such.

 

Besides that you'll note I answered your questions in full anyway. Sure I pointed out that I don't like the Soup aspect but why not? It's not as if I said much more than "I don't like mixing armies together in soup". I didn't derail the thread.

 

Where you think I'm going to mock, scold or ban you from I don't know. I'm talking to you as an equal.

[Panzer]

I'm with Captain Idaho there. Nothing personal against you, but I can see the conflicting messages of you saying you simply want to paint a different colour and you asking which Chapter would have the strongest Devastators. One is about painting, the other is about playing. Two very different things.

So since you initially asked about who's the strongest you shouldn't be too surprised when someone assumes it's mainly about min-maxing your army. Something that always leaves a bad taste when it includes mixing different factions and/or subfaction since many people in the hobby strongly identify with their chosen faction/subfaction.

I'm not saying what you're doing is wrong at all. A mixed army can be just as fluffy and fun as any mono army. However you approached the whole thing here a bit clumsy and took Captain Idahos statement WAY too personal.

[Dracos]

I find this sad and amusing. During. 4th edition I had a whole army painted in separate schemes for different Chapters for Games Day tournament in Chicago. I liked the idea of a Crusade just didn’t like painting that many black miniatures. There were no optimal choices of detachments and chapters tactics back then.

 

Today I’d definitely might want to do the same thing some day and I’ll definitely want to match Chapter and Tactic as much as possible. The vanilla Codex is pretty much weak “soup” in the competitive scene anyway and anything that makes them even slightly more than bottom or mid tier would be appreciated for anyone who likes playing competitively. I said playing ... not winning. Because you know ... Marine Codex :)

 

 

 

Salamander for long range Dev Weapons, Raven Guard for short range ... it sounds counter-intuitive to most the advice you’re hearing but this is the idea. HQ choice of Captain and the RG can get short range weapons in position T1 with rerolls to hit. Sallies with a Lieutenant get you rerolls for hits and wounds. You seem to prefer Missle Launchers and Lascannons so I’d go Sallies if I were you (though personally I love Meltas) .... like I said counter-intuitive to standard thinking .... but so are Terminators as a tournament unit and we’ve learned that myth isn’t always true either. Best of luck.

[HighMarshalAmp]

It's not a personal attack.

 

and took Captain Idahos statement WAY too personal.

Now that I did; sorry to come across as too intense.

Let's just say I'm used to things getting rather personal online lately so I wanted to come out swinging this time - it's just that there was nobody looking for a fight and I've made a right fool of myself.

 

Honestly, I wouldn't have thought of using Detachments (armies, sure, but not Detachments) tailored to a certain aspect of the fight according to their Tactics - especially when you can only have so many.

I mean, I try to make the best of each of my Chapters, especiall while they're allies of convenience, but all of them start out as 3 Tac Squads, a Captain and an Lt to have at least some numbers of their own - it's not like I have only blue Bikers and Templar Vanguards.

Of course, I won't ever have any Templar Long Range Fighters or Ultramarines with Jump Packs and Axes, but who does?

That's why I didn't think to mention any of it initially. I had no idea this was an issue.

 

So when I brought up the colors, I was thinking of my dozens of minis already painted while it must in fact have sounded like those Devs would be the first ones in a new scheme.

You call it clumsy, I call naive and good natured to assume what I had assumed.

Again, sorry to have taken things so personal - and I'll make sure to make it clear in future posts why I'm doing what I'm doing so nobody thinks I'm that guy...

 

Also, I guess I'm blue at heart so the Ultramarines will get reinforcements.

[Brother Lunkhead]

Well said HighMarshalAmp …. in the end we are all friends here.

 

Personally I don't generally mix chapter units in competitive play (although, I do occasionally use an outside detachment) but I don't have a problem with folks who do this. I might give them the hairy eyeball if the SM Codex was stronger but it's not. I still have problems those who bend and stretch the rules almost to the point of breaking, but I don't think that's the same thing.

[Captain Idaho]

The B&C is a better ran place than most of the internet but it's understandable that you might have felt defensive. Don't worry about it; you certainly haven't made a fool of yourself.

 

***

 

I actually do take Ultramarines Vanguard! They do well for me as I often use Scions of Guilliman to give them rerolls in close combat (after using it to give rerolls to other units in shooting phases).

 

Besides that, yes go Ultramarines as we are the best ;) *Idaho ducks as the other posters all throw their food and drinks at him*

[9x19 Parabellum]

Chiming in here; if your 3 potential chapter choices for Devastators are going to be either UM, IF or RG, I'd go RG.  Put them far away in cover and they're really tough to shift out.   The IF chapter tactic will be overkill since most devastator weapons already have good to great AP.  And if somebody is getting the charge off on your MSU Devastators there's a good chance they are going to be dead anyway at the end of it, so falling back and shooting as UM with a -2 penalty to hit is not going to be terribly effective even if they do live. 

[Basteala]

Are you restricting yourself to just Codex Astartes?

 

Because if not, Grim Resolve from the Dark Angels is strong. Rerolling 1s if you don't move (and realistically, Devastators don't want to move), is great since you get a captain's aura without needing one to babysit. The morale protection can be cute if you want to add a couple guys for ablative wounds.

 

Otherwise, I think Raven Guard is better than Salamanders, given that Devatators will draw a lot of hate and you'll want to protect them.

[Brother Crimson]

It’s not a chapter tactic per say but longfangs (devastators) in Space Wolves with keep sense stratagem will be an excellent unit. In goring negative penalties to hit makes devastators much more reliable and plasmas don’t overheat as easily.

[Tommytheone]

Basteala is right. 

 

Grim resolve is great for big devastators squads (9 or 10 models). Also you equip them with heavy plasma canons since you can reroll one's to hit and get access to Damage 3 plasma with the stratagem. 

 

You can then take 1 or 2 lieutenants to rerolls one's to wound, et voilà. 

 

Lastly, you can get shoulder pads with the chapter icon embossed onto them so no need to free hand the painting ;)

[Panzer]

Yeah Long fangs sound really strong. Ignoring all negative to-hit penalties is huge. Especially against Eldar.

[CCE1981]

My biggest problem with Long Fangs is that you can’t take oblative wounds. A minimum squad takes very little firepower to remove. It gets one shot and its gone, if you go first or spend resources (cps) that is.

 

I design lists to go second looking at going first as a bonus. Long Fangs and minimum squads of Devastators and Havocs just don’t live ling enough to be worth much.

[Panzer]

Most people don't take ablative wounds on their Devastator squads anyway so that's not an issue for me. If you want them to be more survivable just put them in a Razorback and in your turn disembark, pop the Stratagem and hit on 3s again.

[Brother Crimson]

You can outflank longfangs too. It’s not a lot of CP for what you get.

 

They also get a free reroll one to hit against one target.

[Triszin]

wolves have some fun devastators! especially with the keen senses strat

[Panzer]

Another thing why Long Fangs are great. They have a second Stratagem just for themselves called "The Wolf's Eye" for 1CP which lets them to either re-roll failed hit rolls or re-roll failed wound rolls for that phase.

 

So Longfangs can:

• outflank for 1CP
• ignore any negative hit modificators for 1CP
• re-roll hit or wound rolls for 1CP

That's a lot of support. Not as devastating as Slaanesh CSM with their double shooting, +1 to wound and +1 to hit but still better than anything any other imperial Marine chapter has to offer on the offensive.

[Tommytheone]

Although the long fangs do look good on paper, they are still a pretty heavy CP commitment to get the most out of them and squad size limit means you will start hurting after three casualties. 

 

Also lets stop considering these units in a vacuum and take into account the size of the games you are playing. At 2000 points, you can take 3 devastator squad quite easily and they can provide you with some nice fire support. 3 6 man long fang squads with wolf guard nets you 21 marines for 9 ablative wounds in total. On the other hand, you can take 3 10 man devastator squads from any other chapter ( and add an armorium cherub to each as well) which then gives you 21 ablative wounds (18+3 thank to the cherub)! 

 

That is more than twice the amount of ablative wounds! And let's face it, at 2000 points, most opponent you face will have enough fire power to nuke 15 marines turn one. With the long fangs, that's 2/3 of your fire support, with regular devastators that's 1/3 of your support fire (even less if the opponent splits fire too much).

 

And yes, you could use the stratagem on long fangs to outflank them, but less units you have on the board, the easier it is for the opponent to focus fire on the units that are on the board.