Leman Russ weapon options

[Bigtimewizard]

Hi guys, I'm just starting out a genestealer cults army and I'm looking at adding 2 Lehman russ battle tanks.

Is it best to really load up on fire power, say a battle cannon with plasma cannon sponsons and a lasscannan pintle?

Is this asking for trouble and should I keep it cheap and cheerful?

In which situations does each turret weapon excel?

 

I thought that I would ask here as the AM/IG are clearly the experts when it comes to tanks! :)

[WarriorFish]

Welcome to the B&C :) It depends on your overall army build, but generally speaking you can't go far wrong staying cheap and cheerful. The main cannon is capable (especially firing twice if you move slow enough), and a hull lascannon adds some extra punch if you fancy adding a bit more heavy fire power.

 

The standard Russ battle cannon works fine for me as it can turn its hand to most targets with good results so when in doubt I take that :)

[noigrim]

Imao the punisher is the best option since now you can wound anything and vs even S8 you ara going at 5+

[Halfpint100]

You cant go wrong with a basic battlecannon russ, 3 heavy bolters and a heavy stubber pintle. 36" range on most of the guns and 72" on the big one, 2D6 str 8 -2 D3. 9 str 5 -1 1 ad 3 str 4 0 1. for around 170 points. gotta love it!

 

Punisher also works well with 3 heavy bolters and stubber/ storm bolter. gives you 50+ shots most of the time which is fun! 

 

those are the main two i use and they work great. Hope that helps

[Wassa]

• Battle Cannon is the standard jack of all trades option, good at shooting everything but theres usually a more specialised variant (good).

Demolisher Cannon is a stronger and higher damage dealer variant of the Battle Cannon but it has a shorter range. Better against T5 and higher wound models (good only if you can get it in close against suitable targets)

Punisher Gatling Cannon is great against hordes (awesome especially if you can modify it's BS).

Eradicator Nova Cannon is a weaker shorter range battle cannon but it prevents cover saves (meh).

Exterminator Cannon is just a lot of autocannon shots (good against models with 2 wounds).

Executioner Plasma Cannon is meh, I'd prefer the Battle Cannon unless someone can give a good reason for it?

Vanquisher Battle Cannon is meant to be the anti tank cannon but it's only really a Lascannon with a 2D6 choose highest damage (meh).

[Wassa]

If you plan on keeping them stationary and shooting then the Lascannon and Sponsons are a good idea, else you'll be hitting on 5+.

 

 

The standard sponson weapon is the heavy bolter.

Unless it's a Demolisher/Punisher getting in close I wouldn't even consider the multi melta.

Plasmas are better for AM/IG with ways to reroll attacks and reroll 1s, but not sure if GSC can use these tricks.

[Harrowmaster]

The eradicator has the same rate of fire, ap and damage as the battle cannon but with lower str and range. The bonus to ignores cover is probably better v marines than wounding on 2s (don't forget it still wounds on 3s). 36" is pretty good on a standard board (72" is too long most lf the time). However, it is 3 points more expensive than the battle cannon

[Mekhitar]

Mathhammer on the turrets reveals that the punisher is the best anti-horde and the executioner (overcharged) the best anti-tank, per points. Of course overcharging comes with a risk.

 

The executioner is also very good anti horde, per points.

The battle cannon is solid anti tank, with the advantage of all the range in the world, and no risk.

 

Avoid the exterminator, vanquisher, and demolisher like the plague.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

As others have said it really depends on what you're asking the tank to do for your army. 

 

The old template tanks have lost a lot of their utility in the current edition, and are no longer the go to for deleting hordes. That being said, it's really made things like punisher cannons shine.

 

I don't use LR Punishers, because I have Vultures with punisher cannons, and I find that is usually scarier to an opponent. 

 

I'd disagree that demolishers are bad, I think that demolishers are good for taking on high toughness, multi wound units. 

 

Generally I'd stay away from using single shot weapons on BS4+ models, so the HB on the Battle Tank's hull is better IMO. 

[duz_]

Welcome Bigtimewizard

 

Although i cannot condone heresy the Leman Russ is by far the best tank in the galaxy and will crush any foe

I see you've been given some good advice so far

 

Our fell Frater Chris521 put together a graph to compare the effectiveness of the different weapons

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334215-improving-the-effectiveness-of-the-leman-russ

and

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/341286-some-leman-russ-changes-that-ive-had-in-mind

[noigrim]

Problem with the punisher is that you have to get close to the enemy, that's why whenever I can I sneak them with a stratagem. However, if you want to bombard from afar the manticore is both cheaper and better.

[Chris521]

Welcome Bigtimewizard

 

Although i cannot condone heresy the Leman Russ is by far the best tank in the galaxy and will crush any foe

I see you've been given some good advice so far

 

Our fell Frater Chris521 put together a graph to compare the effectiveness of the different weapons

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334215-improving-the-effectiveness-of-the-leman-russ

and

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/341286-some-leman-russ-changes-that-ive-had-in-mind

Haven't seen those threads in a while.  I see in December I updated the original with newer graphs.  While they should be right, I think all of the text in the first thread is pre codex so I wouldn't look too closely at that part. 

 

 

When All is said and done, the Catachan Conqueror is my go to tank.  It's very self sufficient with only some minor downsides from the battle cannon. It can re roll number of shots and reroll all hits within 24 inches.

 

I've had success running a Catachan Spearhead with 1 or 2 Commanders with battle cannon, and 3 Conquerors.  Good firepower, that has some decent staying power with objective secured to cap it off.

 

 

Edit: I did just notice that You were looking at genestealer cults.  Of the top of my head I don't remember if they get regiments to the Catachan part may not be applicable.

[sairence]

Genestealer Cult have take Broodbrothers as their regiment, preventing any bonuses.

 

I'd suggest thinking about how you want to use. As spearhead leading your force you probably want something like a Punisher, but for long range AT the Battletank/Conqueror will not disappoint you. A similar but more specialised role can be taken by the Annihilator. The Executioner is an excellent in between.

 

All other variants fall short of these in some way in my experience.

[-Nemesis-]

My personal favorite main guns:

1. Punisher, for sheer rate of fire. I prefer these with Tallarn, who have the mobility to get within the otherwise limited 24" range. I also take three heavy bolters and a stormbolter for 51-53 shots on the move. The shorter range means you will probably take some charges, and in fact I like to bait those with these tanks. An enemy charging one of these Punishers can expect the full 53 shots that hit on 5+ with a stratagem. That's 18 overwatch hits on average, so you can dice things to death on your turn and theirs. Lovely lovely tank. Only issue is I don't want to buy a 5th hull just for another one, and the bits seem prohibitively expensive (I am not paying $10 plus shipping). 168 points.

 

2. Conqueror, for accuracy of main cannon. I really like these with Catachan, so they get to re-roll number of shots AND re-roll to hit, for IMO one the best battle-cannon style platforms around. Since the co-axial gun is a stormbolter (why not a stubber, whyyyy!), you can run into the same proximity issues as above, so the same extra weapon load-out may be recommended. If you do so, I again would have to run the tank as Tallarn for 173 points. Otherwise, I am perfectly happy running these with just an extra stormbolter for 149 points in Catachan.

 

3. Annihilator. Works with everyone (but particularly with Cadia's static re-roll buff), with 5 lascannon shots from a nice and safe distance. Hull lascannon, no other upgrades. Pew pew pew. Much more survivable than lascannon heavy weapon teams, even if you're paying 36 points per shot instead of 26.

 

The one I want to love because I have a volkite turret from FW that looks awesome:

Executioner. When overcharged, it's basically a battlecannon with set damage and an extra point of armor penetration. That's pretty neat, although probably still lagging behind a conqueror due to the accuracy re-rolls.  Of course, you also want to incorporate some plasma sponsons and a tank commander to maximize the damage output.  And that damage is lovely, of course, but I find this 200+ point tank draws way more fire than it can handle. It just dies in the opponent's first shooting phase, and spending stratagems/spells/popping smoke all on a single unit is frequently impractical.

[Marshal Haduwig]

Everyone here has already covered why the punisher varient is basically the best choice but I'll throw another voice in for the Annihilator varient. Twin Lascannon on Turret plus one in hull means you get 5 S9 AP-3 shots whenever you move under half. Your opponents will feel this and immediately try to get rid of it. Leaving the rest of your army to dish out the pain.

[sairence]

I'm not a huge fan of sponsons, but it really depends on the tank. A long range one is generally fine with a hull lascannon. A Punisher wants its HBs. The rest...not really needed and drives up the cost. I've never found Plasmasponson particularly impactful myself.

[Wassa]

My personal favorite main guns:

1. Punisher, for sheer rate of fire. I prefer these with Tallarn, who have the mobility to get within the otherwise limited 24" range. I also take three heavy bolters and a stormbolter for 51-53 shots on the move. The shorter range means you will probably take some charges, and in fact I like to bait those with these tanks. An enemy charging one of these Punishers can expect the full 53 shots that hit on 5+ with a stratagem. That's 18 overwatch hits on average, so you can dice things to death on your turn and theirs. Lovely lovely tank. Only issue is I don't want to buy a 5th hull just for another one, and the bits seem prohibitively expensive (I am not paying $10 plus shipping). 168 points.

 

 

Leman Russes don't get to fire the turret weapon twice on overwatch so they won't face 53 shots when being charged.

[Halfpint100]

My personal favorite main guns:

1. Punisher, for sheer rate of fire. I prefer these with Tallarn, who have the mobility to get within the otherwise limited 24" range. I also take three heavy bolters and a stormbolter for 51-53 shots on the move. The shorter range means you will probably take some charges, and in fact I like to bait those with these tanks. An enemy charging one of these Punishers can expect the full 53 shots that hit on 5+ with a stratagem. That's 18 overwatch hits on average, so you can dice things to death on your turn and theirs. Lovely lovely tank. Only issue is I don't want to buy a 5th hull just for another one, and the bits seem prohibitively expensive (I am not paying $10 plus shipping). 168 points.

 

2. Conqueror, for accuracy of main cannon. I really like these with Catachan, so they get to re-roll number of shots AND re-roll to hit, for IMO one the best battle-cannon style platforms around. Since the co-axial gun is a stormbolter (why not a stubber, whyyyy!), you can run into the same proximity issues as above, so the same extra weapon load-out may be recommended. If you do so, I again would have to run the tank as Tallarn for 173 points. Otherwise, I am perfectly happy running these with just an extra stormbolter for 149 points in Catachan.

 

3. Annihilator. Works with everyone (but particularly with Cadia's static re-roll buff), with 5 lascannon shots from a nice and safe distance. Hull lascannon, no other upgrades. Pew pew pew. Much more survivable than lascannon heavy weapon teams, even if you're paying 36 points per shot instead of 26.

 

The one I want to love because I have a volkite turret from FW that looks awesome:

Executioner. When overcharged, it's basically a battlecannon with set damage and an extra point of armor penetration. That's pretty neat, although probably still lagging behind a conqueror due to the accuracy re-rolls. Of course, you also want to incorporate some plasma sponsons and a tank commander to maximize the damage output. And that damage is lovely, of course, but I find this 200+ point tank draws way more fire than it can handle. It just dies in the opponent's first shooting phase, and spending stratagems/spells/popping smoke all on a single unit is frequently impractical.

The punisher doesn't have 50+ over watch shots. Grinding advance doesn't work in over watch, only works in the shooting phase! I have been caught out on this before

[Bigtimewizard]

Thanks guys, so many responses in such short time!!

An extra special shout out to the guy who wrote the code to run simulations and produce the graphs!

It seams clear that everyone's favourite choice is the executioner plasma cannon.

Unfortunately being a worshipper of the 4 armed God as of now (still on the index) genestealers can't take the demolished kit or any of its variants, we can only take weapons from the basic leman russ kit namely the: battle cannon; exterminator autocannon; eradicator nova cannon or vanquisher battle cannon.

From this choice it looks like the automation is best against most things and the battle cannon is better against the really heavy stuff i.e. land raiders and knights.

I might be blind but I can't find a way to reroll 1s although this may change in a few months with the eventual uprising and new codex.

[Tokugawa]

It also depend on terrains of your LGS/tournament. If there are big, LOS-blocking pieces then Punisher is nice, else LRBT is still the best choice.

[Wassa]

Unfortunately being a worshipper of the 4 armed God as of now (still on the index) genestealers can't take the demolished kit or any of its variants, we can only take weapons from the basic leman russ kit namely the: battle cannon; exterminator autocannon; eradicator nova cannon or vanquisher battle cannon.

 

 

You can include an AM detachment for every GSC detachment though can't you?

 

Nothings more scary than a horde of Tyranids rapidly approaching backed up by AM tanks and artillery.

[Rikev]

Watch Fury if you want some inspiration for modelling ideas. I don't take sponsors on my longer range russes as I themed them around this film. I also put HB hull weapons on as a defensive weapon and moved the storm bolter to the rear of the turret. When painted, I'm going to try find some wooden beams to hang off the side.

 

Just beware. Guard treadhead syndrome can be highly infectious. ;)

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

I take conquerors as my line tanks. I only use battletanks  for commanders (currently, I only have the one, and It's Pask). I feel that a TC can make the best use of the battlecannon, while the Conquerors can take advantage of their coax gun to make them hit more reliably within 24", which is where you're going to get them because they're line tanks. 

[-Nemesis-]

My mistake on the overwatch, but that's still 33 shots hitting on 5+. That will kill several marines and a whole bunch of squishy stuff.

 

So yeah, Annihilators, Conquerors and Punishers depending on which regimental doctrine I feel like using. I don't actually use tank Commanders very often. They are quite expensive and a Russ is easy enough to burn down. I do like them with Tallarn, though, since you can move in and out of LOS with their unique order.

[crimsondave]

I don't like the Eradicator, Exterminator, or Demolisher.  All the others have their place.  Executioners are brutal when overcharged but range can be a problem.  Battle cannons will really reach out and touch.  My favorite may be the Annihilator, though.  I have destroyed and undamaged Leman Russ in one volley, even at BS +4.  Cadia's static re-roll ones is very nice with these but won't help you with GSC.