How to build Chaos Lists?

[Xenith]

Pick your favourite units. Build them, paint them. Add up their points cost. Repeat til you get to 1000pts. 

 

Unit's effectiveness waxes and wanes with each edition. If you custom build an army to this edition, it might become irrelevant by the next FAQ (c.f. Tyranid Flyrant lists, smite spam, etc).

 

Pick the units you think have cool models and background, and they'll always be relevant and youll have more fun. 

[Daemon Prince Marbas]

Thank you guys very much.

[Daemon Prince Marbas]

Planning on getting Be'lakor and Furies.

[Doom Herald]

I like the idea of furies but I haven't used them and can't vouch for them. Be'lakor is like a hot knife through butter though. What were you planning to do with the furies?

[Azekai]

I like the idea of furies but I haven't used them and can't vouch for them. Be'lakor is like a hot knife through butter though. What were you planning to do with the furies?

Stack LD penalties, I am guessing. They also are fast enough to keep pace with NL raptors.

[Daemon Prince Marbas]

Furies serve a twofold purpose: The first is for them to cause additional casualties when nearby enemy units fail morale tests and act as additional fast attack with the fly keyword. Second, Furies are fluffy for Night Lords as Raptor Cults and Chaos Lords bind them into service due to their predilection for psychological warfare.

[Doom Herald]

Gotcha. Just remember, furies ability for an extra model lost to morale does not stack. I thought about using Nurgle or Tzeentch furies as flying meat shields. Although what may also be nice is summoning Khorne furies to assist characters in melee, they already have more strength than marines I believe and since they are fairly cheap those extra attacks can add up with the Khorne ability.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

 

I like the idea of furies but I haven't used them and can't vouch for them. Be'lakor is like a hot knife through butter though. What were you planning to do with the furies?

Stack LD penalties, I am guessing. They also are fast enough to keep pace with NL raptors.

 

Also, per the old 3.0/3.5 fluff, Furies were kept as slaves/pets by Raptor Cults, so there's a story justification too.

[Daemon Prince Marbas]

I'm playing against an Imperial Soup list today with Astra Militarum and Adeptus Custodes with my Night Lords and Chaos Daemons list....wish me luck.

[Doom Herald]

How'd the game go? That sounded like a tough army to face off against, especially for Night Lords.

[Daemon Prince Marbas]

Utterly destroyed by them. He had Mordians with psykers so they couldn't fail morale and then spammed Jetbikes and Allarus Terminators. I just couldn't damage him for nothing. I killed more Custodians when my Rhino exploded than when my Daemon Prince hit.

[Doom Herald]

Yeah, custodes/guard is kind of the cheesiest army. You are probably better off throwing hoards of plasma at custodes than you are a Prince.

 

What was your army list?

[Azekai]

I suspected this would be the outcome, but I didn't want to get you down prior to the fight.  If you are a newer player, you aren't going to learn much by going up against optimized lists. Competitive 40k has its place... but no one has fun getting shredded when they are simply trying to get the basics.

It's the hobby equivalent of baby-punching. 

Play smaller games with people that are willing to give you a fighting chance.

[Daemon Prince Marbas]

My meta is very competitive so even people's soft lists.....aren't . I had a daemon prince of Slaanesh with sword, Diabolic Strength, Intoxicating Elixir, and Exalted Champion Warlord Trait. Sorcerer with Jump Pack, a ten man squad of Marines, two cultists squads, berzerker squad, rhino, Contemptor with Butcher Cannon and Soulburner, Helbrute with lascannons, Havoc squad, one Obliterators squad, and Be'lakor in an auxiliary detachment.

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

Utterly destroyed by them. He had Mordians with psykers so they couldn't fail morale and then spammed Jetbikes and Allarus Terminators. I just couldn't damage him for nothing. I killed more Custodians when my Rhino exploded than when my Daemon Prince hit.

 

Something to consider in the future...

Daemon Princes are not particularly good at taking down other huge beat stick units with one exception not relevant to you atm.  Use your Princes as support or for utterly smashing weaker stuff.  You want a prince to cast smite or buff something then charge into fire warriors or scout bikers and kill them all with ease.  You do not want to get stuck in with Custodes or another Daemon Prince or a smash captain.  

 

Just out of curiosity... what part of your army do you consider the damage dealer?  What brings the pain?  Every army needs a core that brings serious pain.. everything else supports it in some fashion.  For my Khorne army the pain train is 90 blood letters.  Everything else is just a support element designed to get those bloodletters stuck in.  

[Daemon Prince Marbas]

Honestly, I've always considered my Havocs my core. I always plan for them first in a game and use them to damage my opponent's army most. They are my go to unit for trying to succeed in a game. If they go down my plan and army tends to falter shortly after. They are my bros.

[Panzer]

Honestly, I've always considered my Havocs my core. I always plan for them first in a game and use them to damage my opponent's army most. They are my go to unit for trying to succeed in a game. If they go down my plan and army tends to falter shortly after. They are my bros.

 

That's not a good plan to be fair. Havocs are really easy to take out for any army. They are your Heavy Support. It's in the name. They support your armies core with their damage output but they can't carry you through it and are expected to be killed rather early. It's fine to pick them early when you know what your list is going to lack anyway (like anti-tank most of the time) but they can't be all that is there to your list.

Your core should be something that either lets you roll through a big part of your opponents army like for example multiple Slaanesh Obliterators, a big unit of Slaanesh Plasma Terminators or infiltrating Berzerkers (as Alpha Legion) and/or something that lets you score objectives like Chaos Marines, Cult Marines (as Emperor's Children/Thousand Sons/Death Guard/World Eaters) and Cultists.

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

sfPanzer is preaching the gospel here.  

 

Havocs do not work well as a core unit.  They have to start on the table, are not durable, and do less damage than lots of other good options.  

 

Right now Chaos has access to a lot of really beastly stuff that can bring some serious pain.  Here is some options not listed by sfPanzer you might consider.

 

1.  Thousand Sons supreme command Smite Spam

Ahriman and 2 princes spewing up tons of mortal wounds and support casting.  This detachment is extremely filthy and goes with any chaos list.  You have options to cast death hex on a 5 with stratagems and traits, you can easily deny the hell out of other psykers with Ahriman who is a psychic cockblocker and your princes are great in close combat.

 

2. Bloodletter bombs

For as cheaper as 320ish points you can have 30 bloodletters show up and erase something... or a few things.  Even the threat will alter how your opponent plays.  Great stuff.

 

3. Cultist Hordes

More is better.  Any flavour can bring the pain.  If you go shooty then slaanesh is perfect.  Close combat works also.  A sorcerer will support these guys in any number of ways.  You can get good value with 40 cultists and 1 sorcerer or 120 cultists and a sorcerer.  These guys can also be used to build up command points with double or even tripple battalions.    

 

So these 3 options can be pretty cheap in terms of points to make use of.  If you want to stick with a Night Lord dominant list then adding a small detachment of Tsons sorcerers will preserve your Nightlords character but add a ton of ulitily/firepower.   Or just do what sfPanzer says and get a bunch of Oblits.  Stop relying on havocs though... too easy to counter them and mess you up.

[Doom Herald]

Berzerkers are a good core, but you need to be able to get them there and take advantage of what they have, which is high strength and extra attacks. I noticed you don't have an Exalted Champion or a Dark Apostle with your Berzerkers. You don't necessarily need them, but they will help you get the most out of your Berzerkers. When you have the re-roll for failed hits and wounds in melee from the characters adding to 2 rounds of attacks, you take a melee specialist and make them explosive.

 

Daemon Princes, Be'lakor included, should be largely thought of as melee glass cannons. Its not that they are weak, but they get a lot of attention and you can't depend on their survival. Unless you are fighting something extremely tough, warp time might be a better psychic power for the Prince, especially if it has wings, that way you can get it to where it needs to be. Honestly, I would try a different warlord trait as well.

 

Other than your Prince, how did you confront the custodes? The chief issue I see them have is massed mortal wounds and the Death Hex power. Be'lakor with Death Hex, your contemptor, and possibly even your Sorcerer could have been decent choices to hit them with. Meanwhile your cultists and marines could buy you some time holding back the Guard.

[Daemon Prince Marbas]

It was an ITC Mission with one objective in the middle one in my backfield and one in my opponent's corner. The deployment was you had to stick in your corner whichever one that is. He got first turn and zipped across the board to seize midfield objective. I buffed my Daemon Prince with Diabolic Strength and buffed the Berzerkers with Prescience while he denied Warptime using a Custodes stratagem. I used my Marines and Cultists to deny backfield deepstrike and hold my objective . My Berzerkers charged his Jetbikes and did nothing but die . His Jetbikes after two fight phases took no wounds . Second turn he killed all my cultists brought in his Terminators and charged my prince with 8 bikes and a shield Captain after killing his screen. Prince took six wounds off the captain. And then the prince and rhino died which took out a couple bikes with some leftover wounds and finished the shield Captain. Terminators finished the Contemptor. He said to call it because my Obliterators and Be'lakor in deepstrike using Denizens of the Warp wouldn't be enough to take out his bikes. The Mordians were guarding the backfield objective and used to CP farm.

[Mekhitar]

I’m very surprised the berserkers didn’t kill any bikes. With prescience and the DP, they are hitting on 2s, rerolling 1s, generating extra attacks on 5s, and wounding on 4s. (This is with the chain ax for s6 AP-1). This is assuming all the chainsword attacks just bounce (at s5 AP- sometimes they just do straight bounce off of custodes. Those guys can be tough.)

 

Some quick math hammer tells me that is just over 4wds on a bike per attack, which you can do 3x. Now granted 3 bikes isn’t a lot, but they do cost something like 240pts for 3!

 

The overwatch can be nasty on them so you do need to throw the rhino in first or you’d lose zerkers on the way in.

 

I find I get a lot of mileage out of the Black Legion warlord trait backing zerkers up - with prescience, they generate extra attacks on 4s, which adds up.

 

I am afraid I have no advice on what to throw your DP at - mine always overextends and dies! I do better with a Sorcerer.

 

If you expect to be playing much more custodes, autocannon predators are pretty solid (with kill shot to take out bikes in 1 hit). Of course, the “meta” answer to custodes is renegade hellverins, who are d3 naturally and can reroll all their to-hits with Trail of Destruction, and average 8 shots each - not to mention being as fast as a bike themselves.

 

Other d3 things that will kill custodes on a failed save - double fist hellbrutes are pretty cheap and couple well with Death hex, wounding on 2s, and get Legion traits. If you want to keep some shooting, 2x storm bolter also gives them decent infantry clearing.

 

The defiler also serves well, with a d3 flail basically doubling its attacks. Last time I fought custodes it killed 5 guardians, the vexilla, and a captain, with no support except daemonforge.

 

These are all kind of “tailor to your opponent” style answers, though, which may be something you want to avoid.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

I’m very surprised the berserkers didn’t kill any bikes. With prescience and the DP, they are hitting on 2s, rerolling 1s, generating extra attacks on 5s, and wounding on 4s. (This is with the chain ax for s6 AP-1). This is assuming all the chainsword attacks just bounce (at s5 AP- sometimes they just do straight bounce off of custodes. Those guys can be tough.)

 

Some quick math hammer tells me that is just over 4wds on a bike per attack, which you can do 3x. Now granted 3 bikes isn’t a lot, but they do cost something like 240pts for 3!

 

The overwatch can be nasty on them so you do need to throw the rhino in first or you’d lose zerkers on the way in.

 

I find I get a lot of mileage out of the Black Legion warlord trait backing zerkers up - with prescience, they generate extra attacks on 4s, which adds up.

 

I am afraid I have no advice on what to throw your DP at - mine always overextends and dies! I do better with a Sorcerer.

 

If you expect to be playing much more custodes, autocannon predators are pretty solid (with kill shot to take out bikes in 1 hit). Of course, the “meta” answer to custodes is renegade hellverins, who are d3 naturally and can reroll all their to-hits with Trail of Destruction, and average 8 shots each - not to mention being as fast as a bike themselves.

 

Other d3 things that will kill custodes on a failed save - double fist hellbrutes are pretty cheap and couple well with Death hex, wounding on 2s, and get Legion traits. If you want to keep some shooting, 2x storm bolter also gives them decent infantry clearing.

 

The defiler also serves well, with a d3 flail basically doubling its attacks. Last time I fought custodes it killed 5 guardians, the vexilla, and a captain, with no support except daemonforge.

 

These are all kind of “tailor to your opponent” style answers, though, which may be something you want to avoid.

Agreed. He rolled bad. Exalted Champ and/or Apostle might help with that as mentioned. The clutch denial on Warp Time was also a sadface moment.

 

However, your suggestions are indeed solid, as are those from Panzer. In particular, I find that Rubric Marines just eat Custodes (other than Shield Captains) if they get to shoot at all. Combined with the heavy Smite capability that CSM's can bring, it's a bad matchup for the shiny boys that I've seen happen in battle reports over and over.

[Doom Herald]

While learning how to use your army, I wouldn't call it until I was tabled, personaally. There's lessons to be learned fighting to a man and it sounds like some of your hard hitters never even got to see the fight. While I don't think Be'lakor would have wiped out the custodes, I think you would have been impressed with the damage he did, especially if Death Hex manifested. Similarly, oblits would have fared better against them than other units. Berzerkers really lack the AP needed to hurt Custodes, my opinion, especially without the re-roll to wounds.

 

Custodes Bike armies are not the good way to welcome a newcomer. Take this as a learning lesson, try against other armies, but keep this battl in your mind. You are probably going to lose a lot with an entirely new army until you learn enemy units and strategies. Play 2 or 3 games, decide what didnt work, decide what you could make better or do better.

 

I don't think putting your relic and warlord trait on a Prince is a good idea since they get targeted quickly and then you are out a relic and warlord. Try adding more high AP weaponry. 125 points gets you a 5 man raptor squad with 6 rounds of plasma at 12". A couple of those with a Lord or Prince can fire supercharged plasma with little concern for losing models.

 

Did you remember you have Death to the False Emperor? I tend to forget about it, but it is a good help against Imperium units. Your Berzerkers with Blood for the Blood God & Death to the False Emperor Should have managed to do some damage. Again, a Dark Apostle would help that with the hit re-rolls giving you more chances for extra attacks. Also, some might discourage this, but new rules say a non-character model can be your warlord now. Consider Flames of Spite on the Berzerker champion, since he attacks twice and for most purposes, effectively every model in that unit is a wound for him.

[Daemon Prince Marbas]

Would another legion trait help better? Also I'm kind of worried about the utility of Raptors against better codex armies.... :(

[Doom Herald]

Other Legion traits are generally more useful, this from someone who uses Night Lord traits. In my experience, Raptors are useful as deepstrike plasma bombs. My Raptors only see melee if they are there to make sure something is dead. CSM armies are strange in that they do not dominate an obvious aspect of gameplay. Mid-range is generally where Chaos does best, then good melee and psykers. Playing a chaos army is all about tactics, you just have to get the feel for it.

 

Personally, I think Alpha Legion has the best Legion trait. Their strategems is nice too.

 

If I'm not mistaken, you said your Berzerkers had prescience right? That means they should have been getting extra attacks on natural rolls of 5+.