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Make Power Armour and Bolters Great Again


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#51
chapter master 454

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Taking my turn to breath. I want to chime back in once more...oh boy these are fun...

 

So there are various factors in the game itself that do NOT help. The biggest problem we have to account for is the game itself, I mean the big fat rulebook...well it lost a few pounds...stop fat shaming the rule book! The core of it is they are doing massive fundamental shifts in how special rules work along with almost everything in the game being changed.

 

Modifiers are now a common mechanic (AP rule...which should of just been written so they don't have to clarify what improve means everytime they want a rule to do so!)

 

Re-rolls have been lessened and in a lot of ways nerfed when they were common place.

 

Movement is no longer a mathematical chess game, there is variance to it. We used to have all sorts of calculations due to the "6 inchs to charge".

 

Shooting has in a lot of ways also become a different beast with split firing now standard to everyone and not just long fangs...I don't know who else had it prior to 8th

 

Assault is handled drastically differently and offers some interesting options and ideas (though rarely gets to in my experience)

 

Even how we calculate losses is overhauled drastically in relation to bigger units, with the new stat "Damage".

 

 

We have to look at the game as a whole and see all the changes and how volatile it really is right now. The game is still forming, evidenced by the fact we are having beta rules implemented into the game to attempt to balance it which is AWESOME. I welcome live fixing. The change to smite was nice (and the fact its final version was different from the beta, addressing a core issue with it, was excellent) along with how they fixed the character issue and now they are approaching the issue of the alpha strikes via deep strike (which aren't counterable with any really agency unless you play horde and at that point...well you didn't care anyway) and the over-souping of armies. I believe that since GW were open about the idea of 2 big updates to the rules each year via the FAQ and chapter approved says to me they were SURE themselves there would be things they missed that could cause issues. Come on, the character thing is not something you would expect as "Who would take an army of characters? That wouldn't work", a lot of what they are addressing is the extremes we as the community are able to show them.

 

This is evident in the fact that it seems that as codexes later in the rotation got better. However there has been historic evidence of marines always being first and always falling short later. Whether that is from codexes being written in response to those codexes or the writers getting better as they write more codexes having learned from their mistakes or even possibly a core underlying issue with marines? who knows, I am not saying there is a core issue with marines but as we have discussed there are a million possible targets for what it could be or couldn't be.

 

Within my mind, marines should not be cheapened nor should guard be taxed. Just give marines something to call their own really. However I suppose I should say this here and have had some chance to refine this:

 

Units should pay for their stats and rules, not their options.

Weapons should pay for their stats and rules, not their options (with consideration to availability being the only consideration outside of the weapons stat).

 

Best example of this: Imperial Knights Questoris Class Gallant. So, for all my fellow knights out there doesn't it seem odd that the Gallant is 285 points. The exact same as all the other knights. Remember, this is the points cost of the model itself not including wargear. It costs the same as an unequipped Paladin, Errant, Crusader and Warden. "It is to compensate for the melee only options", that shouldn't happen. The same, in reverse, happened to Devastator Centurions. In this case however, the Gallant pays 285 points, the same points the other knights pay, but for a superior stat line. (+1 attack and WS: 2+) which should be taxed as needed. The Gallant isn't any weaker than a Crusader as there are few shortcomings to the unit in terms of design: Is it fragile? Is it Slow? Does it have low output? No, all 3 of those are set to high, High Durability (T8 with 3+ and 5++ to shooting), High speed (12" movement is extremely fast for something that big. It is faster than a land raider and matches a predator) and the output of damage is extreme (we all know how good Knights are at Tap Dancing).

 

Right now, the game suffers from a lot of units not paying the correct points. This goes for marines as it does for guardsmen. To be honest, in guardsmen I will still stand by the stupid idea of how a weapon can cost differently DEPENDING ON THE MODEL THAT CARRIES IT! If we were still doing points based on the datasheets then that would be fine but if we are going to standardise with a table for weapons and models then everything on those tables now only pay for themselves, not who carries them (and vice versa with models paying for what they carry before they carry it).

This I feel would go long ways in improving the game and marines. Sadly, this idea would indeed cheapen marines and a lot of units outside of horde and thus see games get larger as a result but sadly it would at least give us some balance. Not an ideal solution, not saying it is but it would move us in the right direction.


I Chapter Master 454, Chapter Master of the Angels of Justice, Warboss of WAAAGH Gubskul, Commander of a Catachan Regiment, Phaeron of a Tomb World, Shas'O to a Cadre and Princeps of a lance of House Taranis hereby pledge that I will not take up any further models til all other prior have been fully built and painted to tabletop standards. There is no time limit for this task, there is no deadline. My oath is to solemnly complete the armies I have now, to see it that they can have their glory. Paint will be stripped from the old in need, thick may it be like ceramite I will see it removed so that plastic and metal alike may see light of new paint. Models yet to be, boxed and in darkness will be assembled with due care and attention. For this task I am permitted to still buy the supplies needed to do my task but not one model more.

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#52
Dracos

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I totally see your argument ... and agree with it.

 

 

Which is why I expect Gallants to get a points bump in next Big FAQ.

 

 

 

Against my better judgement I checked out BoLS rumours on Primaris .... OMG talk about irresponsible rumour mongering.


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#53
Ishagu

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Don't be so quick to condemn Gallants for bring too cheap. They are popular and people know them well so they are in the spotlight.

Basically every Dark Eldar vehicle and multiple other units are grossly under-priced.

For less than the cost of one Gallant a Dark Eldar player can field 33 wounds worth of Ravagers that output 18 shots, each dealing 3 wounds. Not to mention they have Invuls, Fly, Fnp, etc

-~Ishagu~-


#54
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Honestly, I think recosting drop pods would be a better way to handle it. If they were 35 pts again, we wouldn't even be having this conversation, 10 man Marine squads would be dropping in and murdering Guardsmen left and right.

 

That does not fix anything, at all. Marine armies, as they are currently, as overcosted without Drop Pods, because Drop Pods are both horribly overcosted and pretty terrible rules-wise. Yes, points cost can alone make something viable - the Drop Pod as it currently is would need to be about 20pts to be worth half a damn considering all of its failings, which is a damn shame considering it's such an important piece of the Marine toolbox in the lore.

 

As for the second part of your post: no, it wouldn't prevent the conversation, because Drop Pods aren't the crux of the issue; and Marines wouldn't be dropping 10-man squads in to murder Guardsmen left and right, because Marines simply aren't that effective. They'd drop in, kill a few dudes and then melt. They'd also still be contending with one of the core issues of the Drop Pod, it's purely a points-to-deep-strike cost: it doesn't actually bring anything unique to the table; sure, it lets you Deep Strike any kind of unit, not just those with Jump Packs but...that's not worth that much, especially considering that:

 - You're paying a premium for it, regardless of the cargo (eg, 10 hot garbage Assault Marines costs the same to transport as 10 Sternguard)

 - You're still abiding by the same Deep Strike rules (>9", Turn 2+, limited by PL/unit count) which makes the Drop Pod basically pointless for melee units (as they're either fast with Jump Packs/Bikes) thanks to the 9" area denial. Simply, the Deep Strike rules hurt the viability of the Drop Pod simply because it doesn't actually provide anything of interest other than the ability to Deep Strike, and that is far too highly valued.

 - Units with Jump Packs are pretty much the ones you want to Deep Strike anyway. It's cheaper and more effective for units to take Jump Packs where available (AM pay 3ppm for their Jump Packs [which is ridiculous in and of itself] which is still cheaper than a 35pt DP which would work out to 3.5ppm and a reduction in their post-DS capabilities; notably being slower without the FLY keyword), and if a unit is a footslogger, you're almost certainly better off with a Rhino (at current cost absolutely: if DP were to drop to 35, eh, maybe but even so) as you still get to hide units; you can actually stay inside, which is important for keeping key units alive longer; you can swap units in and out more freely, and it increases the mobility of your army while its alive, whereas the DP is a one-and-done tool; and the Rhino can be used tactically for things like absorbing Overwatch, body blocking (better than a DP because it doesn't have to abide by the 9" denial area) - essentially, the Rhino is just so much more flexible. Even at a higher cost than a DP the Rhino brings so much more to the table. Which non-JP units want to deep strike (that can go in a DP)? Devastators for alpha strike protection/range improvement (with Grav Cannons)? Rhino helps with the alpha strike, moves them up in to position (ie, the unit can jump out T2, same as a DP; or they can jump out T1 if an enemy came in closer), keeps them mobile later in the game (ie, a DP gets them in close once; but the Rhino can keep picking them up and dropping them where they need to go) and, again, provides them with some additional protection (eg, it can charge a potentially troublesome unit that might want to charge them/could possibly block LOS to them, etc).

 - Drop Pods don't actually do anything of particular use. They're a one-use Deep Strike for a small selection of units. That's it. But Deep Striking isn't really that useful any longer. Oh, it certainly has value, but not every unit can use it particularly well - Deep Striking Guardsmen Infantry Squads have some advantage over non-DS Infantry Squads, but it's not a particularly effective use of those extra resources; DSing a unit of Sternguard has far more value than DSing a unit of Tacticals, as one is simply a stronger unit (ie, better weapons, better stats, not total potatoes in a fight). Honestly, Drop Pods could be a stratagem for 1CP instead of their current rules, it would be far better.

 

So coming back around, I'll summarise because that was a lot more rambling than I meant to write:

Drop Pods are not the core issue of Marines; a points drop for the DP would go a long way to helping the DP itself, but it wouldn't fix the core issues of Marines, and DPs would still be lacklustre even at 25pts!

 

Honestly, I think recosting drop pods would be a better way to handle it. If they were 35 pts again, we wouldn't even be having this conversation, 10 man Marine squads would be dropping in and murdering Guardsmen left and right.

 


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#55
Ishagu

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Nothing would make the Drop Pod good. Inceptors are the best deepstriking impact unit Marines have. I can think of nothing better to put in a Pod
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#56
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Nothing would make the Drop Pod good. Inceptors are the best deepstriking impact unit Marines have. I can think of nothing better to put in a Pod

Kinda. Drop Pods should be redesigned: some kind of reduced denial zone, some kind of impact on the enemy when it deploys (Mortal Wounds, morale, something), and generally being more cost effective. It's not impossible to make it worthwhile; please don't make this into Primaris > Marines, that's not necessarily mutually exclusive and they're both in need of some improvements.



#57
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If drop pods were cheaper, you could drop in say 50 Marines to turn one rapid fire and kill 40+ Guardsmen with shooting alone, not counting melee and morale losses, without even considering being shot beforehand.

It would be similar to the sisters blitzkrieg that renders Guardsmen a waste of points.

Vannilla Marines are slightly overcosted, but not so much that they are worthless.

You could always run them as Space Wolves for their 2 attacks hititng on 2's in combat.

Edited by Beams, 22 August 2018 - 01:49 PM.


#58
Kallas

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If drop pods were cheaper, you could drop in say 50 Marines to turn one rapid fire and kill 40+ Guardsmen with shooting alone, not counting melee and morale losses, without even considering being shot beforehand.

If drop pods were cheaper, you could drop in say 50 Marines to turn one rapid fire and kill 40+ Guardsmen with shooting alone, not counting melee and morale losses, without even considering being shot beforehand.



#59
chapter master 454

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Another thing I didn't talk about but I think we should mention this minor detail...a minor detail. Boltguns did get nerfed as well due to how AP now works. As it stands, the conversion rate from old AP to new AP has outright removed the old version of AP 5 and 6 which was part of the reason marines could even mince guardsman as hard as we could with bolt fire. This means boltguns lack any real meaningful power to them.

 

However I will stand by that...funny enough this is weird...that the boltgun is fine. While maybe not amazing, as far as it goes it stands out as an excellent all rounder weapon. Yes, Tau have pulse rifles but they always had that but if we look at boltguns they stand as a fairly solid "average" weapon. Certainly can still wreck guardsman fairly easily all things considered, just we decided to let them have their armour save. Should the boltgun have some rule to it? Should this weapon be buffed? Meh, I don't think you can without some core issues being wide spread. I could possibly argue that there should be "astartes" pattern boltguns and "militarum" pattern boltguns but that is a minor detail (remember, the boltgun in lore fires Depleted Uranium High Explosive Gyrostabilised rounds. Boltguns must kick like a carnifex!).

Overall, I would say boltguns are fine. HOWEVER marines should have access to boltgun specific benefits like how guardsman have access to lasgun special benefits (FRFSRF) that aren't just stratagems, maybe even only for the old-startes who have had far more time to refine their doctrines with their guns.

 

Marines themselves...as it stands the codex just has a lot of things to answer for really. Still stand by that predators should outright ignore moving penalties to help drive the identity of a fast moving force that are marines.


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I Chapter Master 454, Chapter Master of the Angels of Justice, Warboss of WAAAGH Gubskul, Commander of a Catachan Regiment, Phaeron of a Tomb World, Shas'O to a Cadre and Princeps of a lance of House Taranis hereby pledge that I will not take up any further models til all other prior have been fully built and painted to tabletop standards. There is no time limit for this task, there is no deadline. My oath is to solemnly complete the armies I have now, to see it that they can have their glory. Paint will be stripped from the old in need, thick may it be like ceramite I will see it removed so that plastic and metal alike may see light of new paint. Models yet to be, boxed and in darkness will be assembled with due care and attention. For this task I am permitted to still buy the supplies needed to do my task but not one model more.

http://www.bolterand...one-model-more/ the thread to my oath. My own reminder.

http://www.bolterand...rk-in-progress/ my own chapter
"The objective of playing a game is to win. The point of playing a game is to have fun. Never confuse the two"

 

 

 


#60
Panzer

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One thing Drop Pods can do is soaking up intercepting shots but yeah I too think they'd need something more regardless of their points cost.


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#61
Vykes

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Just as a thought exercise (and not exactly super fluffy, but something that does have precedent) what would be the thought on boltguns if they had the equivalency of 'Fury of the Legion'?  IE Rapid Fire 1 becomes Rapid Fire 2 so long as they haven't moved?  I mean, it doesn't help drop pods and other transported marines, but foot slogger tacs would have another tool in their arsenal. 

 

As for drop pods... ugh, those things.  At least the Dreadclaws can deepstrike and assault. 


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#62
Azekai

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How and why is this in the homegrown rules section? We aren’t talking about house ruling stopgap measures, we are debating why marines feel totally unlike the fiction in 8th and how that could be addressed by GW.

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#63
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Just as a thought exercise (and not exactly super fluffy, but something that does have precedent) what would be the thought on boltguns if they had the equivalency of 'Fury of the Legion'? IE Rapid Fire 1 becomes Rapid Fire 2 so long as they haven't moved? I mean, it doesn't help drop pods and other transported marines, but foot slogger tacs would have another tool in their arsenal.

As for drop pods... ugh, those things. At least the Dreadclaws can deepstrike and assault.


What is the goal of that change? It dosent fix anything, it would just makes boltguns cost more points.
Boltgun are already ok as a basic weapon.
It could be an interesting ability for tac marines, though.

#64
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Boltguns ... another reason I prefer Primaris to standard Marines. Bolt Rifles do what Boltguns should. If you "fix" Boltguns, then what happens to Bolt Rifles? Ugh headache.

 

 

[Note: I'd been just as happy if they just true scaled remodeled the Marine line and gave all of them the Primaris stats ... but I live with what we have and move on]


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#65
Beams

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Boltguns ... another reason I prefer Primaris to standard Marines. Bolt Rifles do what Boltguns should. If you "fix" Boltguns, then what happens to Bolt Rifles? Ugh headache.


[Note: I'd been just as happy if they just true scaled remodeled the Marine line and gave all of them the Primaris stats ... but I live with what we have and move on]

I see people suggest fixes all the time that are "Marines need 2 attacks base" or "Marines need an extra wound" or "make boltguns better, but only for Marines!" And it sounds a lot like Primaris Marines. I'm pretty sure GW listened, and fixed Marines.

Edited by Beams, 22 August 2018 - 06:12 PM.


#66
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I see people suggest fixes all the time that are "Marines need 2 attacks base" or "Marines need an extra wound" or "make boltguns better, but only for Marines!" And it sounds a lot like Primaris Marines. I'm pretty sure GW listened, and fixed Marines.

 

Ah yes, that's why my Tactical Marines, Vanguard Veterans, etc all have 2A and 2W...

 

Oh...wait... rolleyesclean.gif


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#67
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Just as a thought exercise (and not exactly super fluffy, but something that does have precedent) what would be the thought on boltguns if they had the equivalency of 'Fury of the Legion'? IE Rapid Fire 1 becomes Rapid Fire 2 so long as they haven't moved? I mean, it doesn't help drop pods and other transported marines, but foot slogger tacs would have another tool in their arsenal.

As for drop pods... ugh, those things. At least the Dreadclaws can deepstrike and assault.


What is the goal of that change? It dosent fix anything, it would just makes boltguns cost more points.
Boltgun are already ok as a basic weapon.
It could be an interesting ability for tac marines, though.

 

Just spitballing ideas for tac/chaos marines is all.  Boltguns wouldn't cost more points as other units a la scouts and vets still have them and it wouldn't necessarily take effect.  On the other hand, it gives tacs something unique that they can do where they aren't such a tax anymore, and they really aren't worth the points they cost as is so the cost would be an ability cost not a weapon cost, it's just keyed to the humble boltgun. Boltguns... eeeeh, I'm not impressed since the AP5 ceased to be a thing and Guard and the like have an option to get an extra shot with theirs.  

 

It doesn't help assault marines, but they almost feel beyond saving unless they just turn them all into Veteran Vanguards. 


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#68
Ishagu

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We shouldn't get off topic, but I'll say this: point adjustments are all we can hope for, at least for now.

GW will not change the rules because it will either invalidate things like Primaris, or scale badly with other things like DG, TS.

A marine costs more than 3 Guardsmen, but should cost less than 2.

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#69
Azekai

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A marine costs more than 3 Guardsmen, but should cost less than 2.


Basically this thread in a nutshell. Good summation.

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#70
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We shouldn't get off topic, but I'll say this: point adjustments are all we can hope for, at least for now.

GW will not change the rules because it will either invalidate things like Primaris, or scale badly with other things like DG, TS.

A marine costs more than 3 Guardsmen, but should cost less than 2.

 

I kinda figured we were always on topic, or so off topic that we're now in a different sub forum.  Dunno mate, make of that as you wish.  

 

Kinda being a defeatist there, ain'tcha? 


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#71
Marshal_von_Speer

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Just as a thought exercise (and not exactly super fluffy, but something that does have precedent) what would be the thought on boltguns if they had the equivalency of 'Fury of the Legion'?  IE Rapid Fire 1 becomes Rapid Fire 2 so long as they haven't moved?  I mean, it doesn't help drop pods and other transported marines, but foot slogger tacs would have another tool in their arsenal. 
 
As for drop pods... ugh, those things.  At least the Dreadclaws can deepstrike and assault. 


I honestly am against any kind of modifier that promotes stationary play. I think it's thematic for armies like Imperial Guard but I understand the Adeptus Astartes as a highly dynamic, mobile and flexible force, which atm is not represented in their rules.

I'd prefer ap modifiers (wound roll of 6 equals ap -1 or the like) or maybe the assault key word.

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#72
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We shouldn't get off topic, but I'll say this: point adjustments are all we can hope for, at least for now.

GW will not change the rules because it will either invalidate things like Primaris, or scale badly with other things like DG, TS.

A marine costs more than 3 Guardsmen, but should cost less than 2.

 

Pretty much this. All those threads always end up with that realisation and then 10 more pages with random ideas going back and forth.

 

Tho I don't think they should cost less than 2 Guardsmen. I do think a Tactical Marine is worth more than a Fire warrior or a Skitarii and those cost 7ppm. I'd say a Tactical Marine is worth around 9ppm and a Scout 10ppm.


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#73
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We shouldn't get off topic, but I'll say this: point adjustments are all we can hope for, at least for now.

GW will not change the rules because it will either invalidate things like Primaris, or scale badly with other things like DG, TS.

A marine costs more than 3 Guardsmen, but should cost less than 2.


Pretty much this. All those threads always end up with that realisation and then 10 more pages with random ideas going back and forth.

Tho I don't think they should cost less than 2 Guardsmen. I do think a Tactical Marine is worth more than a Fire warrior or a Skitarii and those cost 7ppm. I'd say a Tactical Marine is worth around 9ppm and a Scout 10ppm.

So a marine is worth the same as a Sister of Battle?

#74
Panzer

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We shouldn't get off topic, but I'll say this: point adjustments are all we can hope for, at least for now.

GW will not change the rules because it will either invalidate things like Primaris, or scale badly with other things like DG, TS.

A marine costs more than 3 Guardsmen, but should cost less than 2.


Pretty much this. All those threads always end up with that realisation and then 10 more pages with random ideas going back and forth.

Tho I don't think they should cost less than 2 Guardsmen. I do think a Tactical Marine is worth more than a Fire warrior or a Skitarii and those cost 7ppm. I'd say a Tactical Marine is worth around 9ppm and a Scout 10ppm.

So a marine is worth the same as a Sister of Battle?

 

 

I honestly don't even include Sisters of Battle in any of my thought considering they don't even have a Codex and are getting a pretty extensive rework next year.


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#75
Ishagu

Ishagu

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Sisters could be worth the same when they gain their chapter tactics equivalent, considering they already have acts of faith and an additional save mechanic.

Edited by Ishagu, 23 August 2018 - 11:02 AM.

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