Think Tank: Hypothesizing SW Unit Combo's, Options, Etc.

[Armchairarbiter]

First - with the discussion on the "on the hunt" strategem, I do not think it's meant to be a strategem you plan your battle around as an "all comers" kind of thing. I view it as an option depending on your terrain and the opponent you're facing. 

 

I think it has two main uses. One is to keep a unit safe against a castle. Sure the 9" isn't a sure thing but neither is getting there in one piece against the castle. I would do this partially to secure the LOS blocking terrain for units that are unable to do this as the force moves up. 

 

Second is an enemy that is like us. It has melee units moving forward but also a backline of fire support. That's when Wulfen on the hunt shine. They have to move up to meet our force to maximize their force, Tyranids are a great example of this usually. Wulfen coming in behind to wreck Hive Guard or whatever else's day is pretty great. 

 

Second - The bloodclaws over skyclaws issue. I have personally ripped all my JPs off my skyhunters and turned them into bloodclaws. I just don't see them as affordable/reasonable to take. That extra couple of points makes them too cost prohibitive for what they do. 

[Karhedron]

Second - The bloodclaws over skyclaws issue. I have personally ripped all my JPs off my skyhunters and turned them into bloodclaws. I just don't see them as affordable/reasonable to take. That extra couple of points makes them too cost prohibitive for what they do.

Funny, I am just planning to do the opposite and bulk my Skyclaws out to 10-man. Add a SCPL with Power Fist and a WGPL with TH/SS to take advantage of the +1A and +1 to-Hit on the charge and you have a very effective blender unit that includes a few heavy hitting weapons too. Not quite on par with the Death Company perhaps but pretty good for the points.

[Armchairarbiter]

 

Second - The bloodclaws over skyclaws issue. I have personally ripped all my JPs off my skyhunters and turned them into bloodclaws. I just don't see them as affordable/reasonable to take. That extra couple of points makes them too cost prohibitive for what they do.

Funny, I am just planning to do the opposite and bulk my Skyclaws out to 10-man. Add a SCPL with Power Fist and a WGPL with TH/SS to take advantage of the +1A and +1 to-Hit on the charge and you have a very effective blender unit that includes a few heavy hitting weapons too. Not quite on par with the Death Company perhaps but pretty good for the points.

 

 

Hah! Goes to show that everyone has different ideas. :) 

[Lord Ragnarok]

 

 

Second - The bloodclaws over skyclaws issue. I have personally ripped all my JPs off my skyhunters and turned them into bloodclaws. I just don't see them as affordable/reasonable to take. That extra couple of points makes them too cost prohibitive for what they do.

Funny, I am just planning to do the opposite and bulk my Skyclaws out to 10-man. Add a SCPL with Power Fist and a WGPL with TH/SS to take advantage of the +1A and +1 to-Hit on the charge and you have a very effective blender unit that includes a few heavy hitting weapons too. Not quite on par with the Death Company perhaps but pretty good for the points.

 

 

Hah! Goes to show that everyone has different ideas.

 

And there is enough goodies in the dex to have alternate play styles. 

[Karack Blackstone]

The Wolves 'Dex is stunningly competitive, as far as options in the Power Armor continuity goes, at least to me.

 

I do love the idea of a total of 18 Jump Packers on the move. 14 SkyClaws with SkyClaw Leader, a WGPL, a WGBL with JP, and a WP with JP. Expensive, but, when using TWC to escort them in as a shield wall, even if there's a small number of TWC, it seems at least a sound unit synergy, in concept. The table results will vary, but, a Storm Shield wall with Frost Axes, unless the FAQ removes the option, being the mobile defensive line that sees that mass of 18 JP models get into melee, the hurt will begin soon after. that's what, 45 dice from the Skyclaws, +1 for the Skyclaw Leader, +3 from the WGPL, +3 from the WGBL, and +3 from the WP, all dice hitting on 2's on the charge, rerolling misses, and rerolling to wound rolls of 1.

 

55 dice on the charge, with rerolls misses fully, and reroll 1's to wound? Yeesh!

 

Anyway, to continue the thread, and thanks for the continued wonderful discussion, what synergy builds are you finding fun to consider?

[PeteySödes]

To continue my air raid rant, Im thinking about trying a JP RP flying along side (behind) the Stormwolf for cover and "Cloak". I'm realizing that the wulfen are fast enough that you dont really need to ram the damn thing down their throat to get into combat. An advancing JP RP I think would have ample speed to be safe behind the thing given that the wulfen have an almost 24" threat range when getting out.

 

If you can give that Stormwolf a -2 to hit and +1 save its likely going to live, but they cant ignore it either. Couple that with some big GH and a LF squads to take the mid board and theyre going to flinch or move. Maybe an outflanking squad of whatever flavor to herd. Sounds really fun.

[DanPesci]

 

 

Second - The bloodclaws over skyclaws issue. I have personally ripped all my JPs off my skyhunters and turned them into bloodclaws. I just don't see them as affordable/reasonable to take. That extra couple of points makes them too cost prohibitive for what they do.

Funny, I am just planning to do the opposite and bulk my Skyclaws out to 10-man. Add a SCPL with Power Fist and a WGPL with TH/SS to take advantage of the +1A and +1 to-Hit on the charge and you have a very effective blender unit that includes a few heavy hitting weapons too. Not quite on par with the Death Company perhaps but pretty good for the points.

 

 

Hah! Goes to show that everyone has different ideas.

 

 

And im running my SC in small packs to try take more advantage of lone wolf....even more ideas! :D

 

 

Karacks 18 man jump pack squad of death does also sound hilarious though....so many options to try...so few games (on my horizon anyway!)

[Karack Blackstone]

Thanks, it does sound both hilarious and I can see the look on the opponent's face when they see that mass be deployed on the table!

 

Anyway, I just noticed something:

 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/combat-roster/

 

Just select Imperium -> Space Wolves.

 

There's 28 HQ choices, and 19 Elite choices; this means that, most lists will need at least a Patrol and Supreme Command detachment, if not a Vanguard thrown in as well. My reasoning is that, in a 2,000 point game, the real problem is how tightly competitive the vast majority of the SW Codex options are. The issue is that, without favoring Patrol/Battalion, a Vanguard, and one more to player's choice, the Wolves' Elite slots are way too limiting in most detachments to get the wonderful mileage out of our book that is available, on paper.

[The Saint Ragnar]

This has been the list I have ran a total of once:

 

 

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Space Wolves) [60 PL, 1134pts] ++

 

+ No Force Org Slot +

 

Trophies of Fenris (1 Relic)

 

+ HQ +

 

Arjac Rockfist [7 PL, 145pts]

 

Wolf Lord [6 PL, 115pts]: Jump Packs, Power fist, Saga of the Wolfkin, Warlord, Wolf claw

. The Wulfen Stone: Relic of The Fang

 

Wolf Priest [6 PL, 99pts]: Jump Packs, Storm bolter

 

+ Troops +

 

Blood Claws [4 PL, 77pts]

. 4x Blood Claw

. Blood Claw Pack Leader: Power fist

 

Blood Claws [4 PL, 77pts]

. 4x Blood Claw

. Blood Claw Pack Leader: Power fist

 

Blood Claws [4 PL, 65pts]

. 4x Blood Claw

. Blood Claw Pack Leader: Chainsword

 

+ Elites +

 

Wulfen [11 PL, 231pts]

. 2x Great frost axe

. 2x Thunder hammer & Stormshield: 2x Storm Shield, 2x Thunder Hammer

. 4x Wulfen

. Wulfen Pack Leader: Frost claws

 

+ Heavy Support +

 

Long Fangs [14 PL, 253pts]

. Long Fang: Missile launcher

. Long Fang: Missile launcher

. Long Fang: Missile launcher

. Long Fang: Missile launcher

. Long Fang Pack Leader: Boltgun and Bolt Pistol, Chainsword

. Wolf Guard Terminator Pack Leader: Storm shield

. . Cyclone missile launcher and storm bolter: Cyclone missile launcher, Storm bolter

 

+ Dedicated Transport +

 

Rhino [4 PL, 72pts]: Storm bolter

 

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Space Wolves) [53 PL, 865pts] ++

 

+ HQ +

 

Rune Priest [7 PL, 122pts]: 2. Tempest's Wrath, 4. Fury of the Wolf Spirits, Bolt pistol, Jump Packs, Runic sword

. The Armour of Russ: Relic of The Fang

 

Rune Priest [7 PL, 122pts]: 5. Storm Caller, 6. Jaws of the World Wolf, Bolt pistol, Jump Packs, Runic sword

 

Rune Priest [7 PL, 122pts]: 1. Living Lightning, 4. Fury of the Wolf Spirits, Bolt pistol, Jump Packs, Runic sword

 

+ Troops +

 

Blood Claws [4 PL, 77pts]

. 4x Blood Claw

. Blood Claw Pack Leader: Power fist

 

Blood Claws [4 PL, 77pts]

. 4x Blood Claw

. Blood Claw Pack Leader: Power fist

 

Blood Claws [4 PL, 65pts]

. 4x Blood Claw

. Blood Claw Pack Leader: Chainsword

 

+ Fast Attack +

 

Thunderwolf Cavalry [16 PL, 208pts]

. Thunderwolf Cavalry: Chainsword, Storm shield

. Thunderwolf Cavalry: Chainsword, Storm shield

. Thunderwolf Cavalry: Wolf claw, Wolf claw

. Thunderwolf Cavalry Pack Leader: Wolf claw, Wolf claw

 

+ Dedicated Transport +

 

Rhino [4 PL, 72pts]: Storm bolter

 

++ Total: [113 PL, 1999pts] ++

 

The synergy is the unstoppable wall of pain that comes forward. I switched my philosophy on my TWC to use them as a blender which Arjac helps with giving +1A to them. Wolf Lord jumps in with them against chaff and attacks first to proc Wolfkin saga and give a +1A bubble to the TWC to up their blender level. RPs run amongst the transports and TWC giving buffs, de-buffs and using the Armor of Russ to let them all fight anything trying to tie up the Rhinos and hopefully clear them. Wulfen either OtH as my distraction unit or run up along LoS blocking.

[GrFlur]

ragnar you have the spoiler tags interchanged

 

put the [ Spoiler up ans the [/ Spoiler down ;)

[Karack Blackstone]

Ragnar, you are indeed correct to note that TWC are no longer the anti-KEQ (Knight Equivalent) units they once were.

 

Still, that list seems absolutely brutal. I would debate putting more SS's in there, if able, but still, you do you! My reasoning is that, with the escort of TWC getting the Blood Claws into the action, it would allow for a much more synergistic build to have them all ride up and be the buffer. Still, the dual Battalion I was not quite expecting yet; it's a nice source of CP's, and should really let you drive home the dual relics, which as I am guessing you know will dock you one CP. Still, with twin Batt's, that's impressive!

[The Saint Ragnar]

Ragnar, you are indeed correct to note that TWC are no longer the anti-KEQ (Knight Equivalent) units they once were.

 

Still, that list seems absolutely brutal. I would debate putting more SS's in there, if able, but still, you do you! My reasoning is that, with the escort of TWC getting the Blood Claws into the action, it would allow for a much more synergistic build to have them all ride up and be the buffer. Still, the dual Battalion I was not quite expecting yet; it's a nice source of CP's, and should really let you drive home the dual relics, which as I am guessing you know will dock you one CP. Still, with twin Batt's, that's impressive!

Thanks, I was quite impressed with how the double battalion worked out as well!

 

I intentionally removed SS from two TWC to get a further attack with the claws. I felt it made a good min/max of durability and attacks

[Karack Blackstone]

To continue my air raid rant, Im thinking about trying a JP RP flying along side (behind) the Stormwolf for cover and "Cloak". I'm realizing that the wulfen are fast enough that you dont really need to ram the damn thing down their throat to get into combat. An advancing JP RP I think would have ample speed to be safe behind the thing given that the wulfen have an almost 24" threat range when getting out.

 

If you can give that Stormwolf a -2 to hit and +1 save its likely going to live, but they cant ignore it either. Couple that with some big GH and a LF squads to take the mid board and theyre going to flinch or move. Maybe an outflanking squad of whatever flavor to herd. Sounds really fun.

 

The JP RP seems like he'd be left behind pretty fast. Still, the concept is sound!

 

As far as that Stormwolf goes, it is truly expensive to use one, let alone two. So, if you did, what would the rest of your list look like, at least in theory? There's every reason to run a fun, fluffy and really badass list on the table; I just wonder what you would use a total army level synergy to get the job done.

[Karack Blackstone]

 

Ragnar, you are indeed correct to note that TWC are no longer the anti-KEQ (Knight Equivalent) units they once were.

 

Still, that list seems absolutely brutal. I would debate putting more SS's in there, if able, but still, you do you! My reasoning is that, with the escort of TWC getting the Blood Claws into the action, it would allow for a much more synergistic build to have them all ride up and be the buffer. Still, the dual Battalion I was not quite expecting yet; it's a nice source of CP's, and should really let you drive home the dual relics, which as I am guessing you know will dock you one CP. Still, with twin Batt's, that's impressive!

Thanks, I was quite impressed with how the double battalion worked out as well!

 

I intentionally removed SS from two TWC to get a further attack with the claws. I felt it made a good min/max of durability and attacks

 

 

Sweet!

 

Just give the unit a purpose, even if it's your intended all-rounder loadout. The stronger attacks would help if you keep the two with the paired claws, especially if you favor shifting units as they advance so you can keep the shields to protect anything behind them, and to use the paired claws as deterrents towards enemy units moving to tarpit your TWC.

[Triszin]

rapid fire 4 is 4 extra dice per shot at half distance, correct?

 

so a wolf lord with 4 attacks shooting at half distance with a rapid fire 4 is rolling, 20 dice?

[TiguriusX]

To continue my air raid rant, Im thinking about trying a JP RP flying along side (behind) the Stormwolf for cover and "Cloak". I'm realizing that the wulfen are fast enough that you dont really need to ram the damn thing down their throat to get into combat. An advancing JP RP I think would have ample speed to be safe behind the thing given that the wulfen have an almost 24" threat range when getting out.

 

If you can give that Stormwolf a -2 to hit and +1 save its likely going to live, but they cant ignore it either. Couple that with some big GH and a LF squads to take the mid board and theyre going to flinch or move. Maybe an outflanking squad of whatever flavor to herd. Sounds really fun.

 

Here is my theory craft air wolf double battalion 

 

 

 

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Space Wolves) ++

 

+ HQ +

 

Wolf Guard Battle Leader: Jump Packs, Power fist, Storm shield

 

Wolf Priest: Bolt pistol, Jump Packs

 

+ Troops +

 

Grey Hunters: 4x Chainsword

. Grey Hunter Pack Leader: Chainsword

. 4x Grey Hunter w/Bolt Pistol

 

Grey Hunters: 4x Chainsword

. Grey Hunter Pack Leader: Chainsword

. 4x Grey Hunter w/Bolt Pistol

 

Grey Hunters: 4x Chainsword

. Grey Hunter Pack Leader: Power sword

. 4x Grey Hunter w/Bolt Pistol

 

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Space Wolves) ++

 

+ No Force Org Slot +

 

Trophies of Fenris (1 Relic)

 

+ HQ +

 

Rune Priest: 1. Living Lightning, 5. Storm Caller, Bolt pistol, Jump Packs, Runic axe

. The Armour of Russ: Relic of The Fang

 

Wolf Lord: Combi-melta, Jump Packs, Saga of the Hunter, Thunder hammer, Warlord

. The Wulfen Stone: Relic of The Fang

 

+ Troops +

 

Blood Claws

. 4x Blood Claw

. Blood Claw Pack Leader: Chainsword

. Wolf Guard Pack Leader: Storm shield, Thunder hammer

 

Blood Claws

. 4x Blood Claw

. Blood Claw Pack Leader: Chainsword

. Wolf Guard Pack Leader: Storm shield, Thunder hammer

 

Blood Claws

. 4x Blood Claw

. Blood Claw Pack Leader: Chainsword

. Wolf Guard Pack Leader: Storm shield, Thunder hammer

 

+ Elites +

 

Wulfen

. 4x Thunder hammer & Stormshield: 4x Storm Shield, 4x Thunder Hammer

. 4x Wulfen

. Wulfen Pack Leader: Frost claws

 

Wulfen

. 4x Thunder hammer & Stormshield: 4x Storm Shield, 4x Thunder Hammer

. 4x Wulfen

. Wulfen Pack Leader: Frost claws

 

+ Flyer +

 

Stormwolf: Twin helfrost cannon

. Two Lascannons: 2x Lascannon

. Two Twin Heavy Bolters: 2x Twin heavy bolter

 

Stormwolf: Twin helfrost cannon

. Two Lascannons: 2x Lascannon

. Two Twin Heavy Bolters: 2x Twin heavy bolter

 

++ Total: [114 PL, 2000pts] ++

 

 

 

Here is why I chose options and how I would run it

Wolf lord has saga of the hunter instead of wolfkin. 

Mobility is lacking once you kill your first target.

Getting your troops moving and still having a chance to charge is going to be key to stop someone from simply running away.  This is especially true if you get lone wolf off and have a few TDA guys with 5" movement only

 

Deployment requires a fire drill and is all about maximizing turn 1

 

You start the game with the stormwolfs up front and space in between

Wulfen + Grey hunters in 1 storm wolf

Wulfen + Rune priest/Wolf priest/WGBL in other storm wolf

Wolf lord in the open near the front of the storm wolfs

 

1xBlood claw in the front of everything in case smite happens (they will embark if nobody dies)

Other blood claws in position to embark as needed

Remaining 2 GH are rear guard they can hide in ruins or sit on an objective we don't care 

 

If you get turn 1 the magic happens

 

You DISEMBARK the RP/WP/WGBL 3" forward.  They will move 12" and advance.  They will all end up somewhere between the 2 stormwolfs who move up 20" (Flyers are long enough to keep your HQ bubble hidden in the middle and will mutually support one another if something tries to charge in.  

 

Your WL will be slightly behind the other HQs but he can advance and charge on turn 2 so he will catch up

 

EMBARK your Blood claws so that each stormwolf has Wulfen + BC and WG then fly forward 20 inches.  Try to make a narrow alley with your flyers to protect your ground HQs

*Edit*

Prior list had BC + TDAWG but I realized TDAWG would count as 2 and exceed transport by 1 so they need to be downgraded to regular WG but same approach would apply

 

The RP casts his easiest spell first (smite) so you can activate the 3CP stratagem.  If that fails he casts his next easiest.  If it works then cast storm caller for 2+ armor on flyers

 

If all goes well you will be unleashing a terror of melee on turn 2 and have wulfen granting reroll to charges for all your units in the vicinity

Once you make it through round 2 your WL trait should become an aura and you can now advance and charge after what remains

 

[Karack Blackstone]

rapid fire 4 is 4 extra dice per shot at half distance, correct?

 

so a wolf lord with 4 attacks shooting at half distance with a rapid fire 4 is rolling, 20 dice?

 

Sorry, no; 8th Ed. is like every other edition: ranged weapon profiles are entirely apart from the core stat line attacks value.

 

If one uses the relic boltgun with rapid fire 4, reference the 8th Ed. Core Rulebook to see how the Rapid Fire value works. I think, but don't quote me, as it was this way in 7th, might not be in 8th at that. Rapid fire 4 is 4 shots out to max range, or, 8 at either up to half range, or, 8 at out max range, but no option to assault at all. Still, 8 dice shooting is great.

 

The ranged weapon's attacks number, as in, Rapid Fire 4 means in the shooting phase one can roll either 4 or 8 dice, depending upon the limits set within the core rules.

 

The melee weapon profile starts from the model's base A (Attacks) rating, as in, a WL with 4 Attacks has 4 dice to start, using one die per weapon as chosen by the player. So, a WL with paired Wolf Claws would have 5 dice, using the single stat line profile for a Wolf Claw. Just, with one extra die, due to the weapon's profile change to the base stat line.

 

Edit: meh, number was wrong...

 

Edit 2: continuing to fix numbers. Bleh.

[TiguriusX]

 

Wolf Lord jumps in with them against chaff and attacks first to proc Wolfkin saga and give a +1A bubble to the TWC to up their blender level. RPs run amongst the transports and TWC giving buffs, de-buffs and using the Armor of Russ to let them all fight anything trying to tie up the Rhinos and hopefully clear them. Wulfen either OtH as my distraction unit or run up along LoS blocking.

 

Just remember the wolfkin bonus does not occur until the END of the phase so you don't get bonus attacks the same turn you complete it

[The Saint Ragnar]

 

 

 

Wolf Lord jumps in with them against chaff and attacks first to proc Wolfkin saga and give a +1A bubble to the TWC to up their blender level. RPs run amongst the transports and TWC giving buffs, de-buffs and using the Armor of Russ to let them all fight anything trying to tie up the Rhinos and hopefully clear them. Wulfen either OtH as my distraction unit or run up along LoS blocking.

Just remember the wolfkin bonus does not occur until the END of the phase so you don't get bonus attacks the same turn you complete it

Thanks! I am fully aware of the limitation we have in our saga and have had to coach some local players on it as they got it wrong.

[PeteySödes]

 

 

Here is my theory craft air wolf double battalion 

 

*snip*

 

 

Nice, thats pretty close to what i want to do! I dont have the second Stormwolf but I'm also doing the lonewolf bait squads lol.

[Triszin]

 

rapid fire 4 is 4 extra dice per shot at half distance, correct?

 

so a wolf lord with 4 attacks shooting at half distance with a rapid fire 4 is rolling, 20 dice?

 

Sorry, no; 8th Ed. is like every other edition: ranged weapon profiles are entirely apart from the core stat line attacks value.

 

If one uses the relic boltgun with rapid fire 4, reference the 8th Ed. Core Rulebook to see how the Rapid Fire value works. I think, but don't quote me, as it was this way in 7th, might not be in 8th at that. Rapid fire 4 is 4 shots out to max range, or, 8 at either up to half range, or, 8 at out max range, but no option to assault at all. Still, 8 dice shooting is great.

 

The ranged weapon's attacks number, as in, Rapid Fire 4 means in the shooting phase one can roll either 4 or 8 dice, depending upon the limits set within the core rules.

 

The melee weapon profile starts from the model's base A (Attacks) rating, as in, a WL with 4 Attacks has 5 dice to start, using one die per weapon as chosen by the player. So, a WL with paired Wolf Claws would have 6 dice, using the single stat line profile for a Wolf Claw. Just, with one extra dice, due to the weapon's profile change to the base stat line.

 

Edit: meh, number was wrong...

 

thanks, so rapid fire 4 is 8 shots at half range.

[Ratherdashing]

Frostfury, though replacing a Rapid Fire 2 stormbolter, is in fact Assault 4. So a regular storm bolter is 2 shots at full range and 4 at half, while Frostfury is 4 shots at its entire range band. Also, in eight edition you can charge after shooting any weapon, including Rapid Fire. Assault gives you the ability to fire after advancing.

 

With your melee numbers make sure you are not still giving an extra attack for charging. A WL with 4 attacks has four dice unless he's getting more from Wulfen Stone, Saga of the Wolfkin, or having two Wolf Claws.

[Kallas]

thanks, so rapid fire 4 is 8 shots at half range.

Correct.

 

Rapid Fire X = X shots out to maximum range; or X*2 at half range.

 

RF 2 = 2/4

RF 4 = 4/8

RF 10 = 10/20

RF 243 = 243/483

 

;)

[One Two Wolf]

 

 

thanks, so rapid fire 4 is 8 shots at half range.

Correct.

 

Rapid Fire X = X shots out to maximum range; or X*2 at half range.

 

RF 2 = 2/4

RF 4 = 4/8

RF 10 = 10/20

RF 243 = 243/483

 

;)

486. Lol, this thread is getting hazy. Good, but holes appearing.

[Karack Blackstone]

 

 

thanks, so rapid fire 4 is 8 shots at half range.

Correct.

 

Rapid Fire X = X shots out to maximum range; or X*2 at half range.

 

RF 2 = 2/4

RF 4 = 4/8

RF 10 = 10/20

RF 243 = 243/483

 

486. Lol, this thread is getting hazy. Good, but holes appearing.

 

 

How do we tighten the content of this thread back up?

 

I do know that with a new Codex out and some of the values within changing enough to start to effect the known values, but still, great point. As a thread I'd love for this one to get back into the fully accurate area; not easy, but certainly worth doing as soon as possible.

 

What thoughts do you all have as far as army level, hunt groups (packs in synergy support), and pack level strategies, tactics, and the wargear to get their chosen mission done?