Kill Team, Counts-as, and WYSIWYG

[Kinstryfe]

How open or how strict are you being with Kill Team, especially since so many model options from the Codexes are missing in the KT lists? For example I have a converted Khorne marine with a giant axe maul thing. Do you think it would be acceptable to use it as a power fist since axes aren't an actual choice anyway? How far in general would you take counts-as? I'm curious in the prevailing opinions as I'm likely running a campaign for my local shop soon.

[Maschinenpriester]

I am also planning to use a Noise Marine as a Counts as Model for a Flamer - Marine, because I think you could interpret it pretty much as a Doom siren or other osrt of sonic weapon, as it also kida ignores cover in the given Kill team Ruleset, by ignoring the hit penalty.

 

I'd say especially because the model count in killteam is so low, the chances of something to get mistaken with something elses is lower. It is just important that the model sizes are similar.

[Stercus]

I’d be happy with that so long as you made it clear before the game, and it matched what it said on your roster.

That’s the whole point of kill team, it’s about customising your guys to the maximum.

[Stoic Raptor]

I'm pretty agreeable if it's reasonable and distinguishable... but seriously, with a dozen or so models, how hard is it to build a team that's properly equipped?

[Berzul]

Can be quite hard, considering the options available in the manual vs the options available in the sprues.

[Panzer]

Can be quite hard, considering the options available in the manual vs the options available in the sprues.

 

Which is barely different from each other?

[Maschinenpriester]

It is not only about equipping properly. This was more about using models you like, and which are illegal, thanks to limited choice of weapon options. In this case lack of chaine axes, or in my case lack of sonic weaponry.

[Mr4Minutes]

Outside of a tournament, I usually don’t have a problem as long as there isn’t 4-5 different models counting as different weapon choices. Ie 4 flamer models, but ones a plasma, ones a melta etc.

 

Tournament, if you were to say this giant axe has the power fist rule, or this sonic blaster is a flamer that’s good with me, it’s thematic. But if you just liked the model and the rules you are using are fairly different, using a plasma gun or power sword for example, I’d probably question why you didn’t just build another model with the correct load out.

[Calyptra]

I'm personally pretty strict about WYSIWYG, for two reasons. The first is so your opponent doesn't get confused, or isn't being asked to remember extra pieces of information during a game that already requires keeping track of a lot of information. The second is more personal - WYSIWYG is important for my immersion and suspension of disbelief. It's the difference between a really cool looking gaming piece and feeling that this is what that character actually looks like.

 

If my opponent asks to proxy something because they forgot a model or something broke in their case or what have you, I'll always say yes. If they just can't be bothered to build appropriately equipped models, I'll say no.

 

And then there are situations where things get weird. I'm actually making things weird in Kill Team now. I'm playing a Drukhari team using classic Wych models. My Hekatrix has a blast pistol. There were no blast pistols in the classic range, but it was important to me to stick with the older aesthetic - her blast pistol needed to look like a classic blaster. I spent over a week building a blast pistol for her out of a couple classic model bits, styrene, and green stuff. The result is a pistol that looks like an old-style blaster. I don't see how anyone could be confused by it. Even if they don't know what the old blasters look like, because there's nothing else it could be.

 

Also, one of my Wyches has hydra knives. This gets weird because hydra knives became hydra gauntlets when GW redesigned the range. I'm loathe to say "hydra knives count as hydra gauntlets" because hydra knives are the OG hydra gauntlets. Again, I don't think anyone is likely to be confused by this, but in this case it's concievable that someone might mistake him for a regular Wych who's holstered his pistol in favor of a second hekatari blade. I guess if that happens I'll need to retire the model and spend a month converting and painting a replacement.

 

My point is that it can get weird, and there's a certain amount of subjectivity here. I think the important questions are: will another player who is familiar with your model range and rules mistake it for something else? Will another player who doesn't know anything at all about your model range or rules mistake it for something else? Will it interfere with another player's immersion (ie attaching little paper signs to the models stating what their weapons are)?

 

Responding the the OP, giant axe maul things may not be an option in Heretic Astartes kill teams, but your opponent will probably not be familiar with what your team can and cannot take. Given that, might they think it's something else?

[Stoic Raptor]

Can be quite hard, considering the options available in the manual vs the options available in the sprues.

 

Can you give me an example of what's in the manual that's not on the sprue?  The idea is to be able to start a team with a troops box.

[Kinstryfe]

 

Can be quite hard, considering the options available in the manual vs the options available in the sprues.

 

 

Can you give me an example of what's in the manual that's not on the sprue?  The idea is to be able to start a team with a troops box.

I think they meant the opposite. Like a space marine Sergeant model talking a power axe from another kit which is a legit choice in codex X, but which isn't in kill team Y. Kit per kit it's totally fine, but can get weird with whole Codex armies being taken into account. At least I assumed that's what they had meant.

[FlamingDeth]

 

 

Can be quite hard, considering the options available in the manual vs the options available in the sprues.

Can you give me an example of what's in the manual that's not on the sprue? The idea is to be able to start a team with a troops box.

Ork nob kombiskorcha, kind of. It's not available in the boyz box, though you can get it in the separate nobz box, despite nobz mobz not being a unit entry in KT.

[Stoic Raptor]

But again, with such a small model count, it shouldn't be hard to acquire the bits you need.  As far as not being able to use some of the models you have?  Well, I didn't expect to be able to in a skirmish game.  Maybe a little disappointed that I can use my Wolf Scout specialists from SWA (one with plasma, one with a flamer) but it was finally an excuse to build a missile launcher camo scout.

[Berzul]

For example, the skitarii sprue from tje starter set comes with one plastma caliver, one arc rifle, and one transuranic arquebus.

 

Cant make more than one of each. The sprue wont allow it.

 

So, can I go counts-as?

[FlamingDeth]

I wasn't debating the ease of acquiring bits, I was simply answering the question, and that is if you pick up a box of boyz you cannot make everything in the boyz unit entry. That is the example asked for. I can't think of anything else off the top of my head, but my familiarity with exact options in model ranges outside of orks and space marines is limited, so I'm likely missing something.

[Calyptra]

What does whether or not all the options are in the box have to do with anything, apart from convenience?

[Brother Lame]

For me, I was extremely disappointed that my Scions apparently can't take grenade launchers, despite that being an option in 40k and there being a grenade launcher included in the kit (which I assume was also in the Drop Force Imperator box?). Having a guy with a grenade launcher was actually pretty important to me thematically as they were one of the characters in the unit I'd created that I was really looking forward to finally being able to field and play with.

 

I've decided I'm going to do it anyway, and he'll 'count as' a regular Guardsman Gunner. Obviously that'd mean he'd have one less BS and Armour Save, which in a way I guess kind of fits the extremely reckless and gung-ho nature of that character. It's not ideal, but I'd rather that than canning the character entirely.

 

If someone called me out on it, or wasn't happy for me to do that, I'd of course oblige and bench them in favour of another model (probably just another vanilla Scion) but that'd be a shame.

 

Not much else you can really do though when GW randomly leaves out weapon options for no clear reason though.

[Stoic Raptor]

Indeed - some omitted options make sense, but that isn't one of them.  I would find your solution acceptable, providing it was announced in advance and you're using the Guardsman Gunner statline.

[Grim Dog Studios]

In my opinion it’s not difficult to house rule some missing options as they share the same profiles as their 40k counterparts. Of course this is provided you’re gaming group/friends allow you to do this. I personally would have no issue with it at all but I guess it isn’t me you have to convince!

[Vykes]

When it comes to Kill Team, and especially campaign or other record keeping modes, I'm far more interested in 'counts as' that are able to easily differentiate models rather than WYSIWYG. There's a few kill teams that have some veeeery limited options, so keeping the aesthetic fresh while getting to keep the individuals straight is important for me.  Kill Team is an excuse to really indulge yourself on making a thematic, fun, and individual group of models and showcasing them.  

 

Khorne berserker with a chainaxe?  Chaos marine with mark of khorne and a chainsword is totally fine.  Assault marine sans jump pack with an eviscerator, power fist tac leader.  House Orlock with an drum-shotgun as a pdf Guardsmen demo with a las rifle, totally good.  Any sort of small mecha or 'ghost' suit to replace that woeful Tau Stealthsuit, sold.  I know I'm salivating at getting some Night Lords with Nostraman Chainglaives and using one as a zelot.  Just say what it is, keep it internally consistent and I'm satisfied. 

[Dr_Ruminahui]

For me, I was extremely disappointed that my Scions apparently can't take grenade launchers, despite that being an option in 40k and there being a grenade launcher included in the kit (which I assume was also in the Drop Force Imperator box?). Having a guy with a grenade launcher was actually pretty important to me thematically as they were one of the characters in the unit I'd created that I was really looking forward to finally being able to field and play with.

 

Damn - I hadn't realized that.  So much for fielding my arbites with grenade launcher.    That makes no sense - and yes, it is an option in the Drop Force box.

 

Hopefully it will be errataed in as an option.

[Sete]

Since OGmarines have that extra resilience wound, im going to  ignore primaris rules, and convert a kill team with primaris bodies but with OGmarines rules.